Gross overcrowding on the 23:05 Waterloo to Poole service

[Flamingo]

Unless a seriously special event, at what scale should the Railway turn around to organisers and tell them to organise their own buses too and from events?

The railway is expected to scrape together trains for events, with no financial incentive to do so in some cases, but the event organisers seem to escape any criticism for failing to take any account of transport in their organisation.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hence why I suggested sitting down and chatting about it. The railway could well turn around and say, nope sorry can't help you, but equally it might become obvious that this is going to be a major event and that being a major transport provider the railway should if possible to play a role.

And of course if they did revenue at the station to make sure everyone had a ticket they might well make some money

I'm not suggesting that the railway should bend over backwards to accomdate everything from the Olympics to the Derbyshire Women's Instute annual bake stall. But surely there's room to talk about it?

 

[Taunton]

It's all down to attitude.

Dunkirk evacuation 1940, in current style.

“Hello, is that FranchiseRail Dover. Quick, I need to speak to the top man”.
“Yeah”.
“Right, everyone’s coming back from France, we need trains to move them all back to base”.
“Well that’s your fault, mate. Have you booked seats ?”
“Certainly not. How quickly can you get them away ?”
“Well, there’s an hourly 2-car stopper to Ashford.”
“Can’t you get every train out into service ?”
“Oooh, no. The franchise don’t allow for that. We’d have to renegotiate.”
“How long will that take ?”
“Normally 18 months.”
“Look, just send every possible train down to Dover.”
“Ain’t none spare. There’s 16 units awaiting daily exams. Can’t possibly use those today though. If they aren’t looked at it’s against our ISO 9000, which the bosses just won’t risk being lost. No way.”
“But there are 350,000 men coming back over.”
“Well I hope they’ve all got tickets. I’d better send a dozen grippers over pronto with lots of penalty fare forms.”
“Don’t be ridiculous, this is an emergency.”
“Any disabled ?
“Yes, there are a lot of injured.”
“Well, we have a limit. Only two wheelchair passengers per train. And they have to book. Shall I put the forms in the post ?”
“But I’m sat here in an office at Victoria and can see lots of trains sat here doing nothing.”
“You must be joking, mate. That’s Brighton Line stock. No safety case to come down to Dover”.
“Well how long will that take to sort out ?”
“Oh, normally about 2 years. And anyway, the Brighton crews don’t sign the road.”
“Look, just send them all down here pronto, the drivers will be able to handle it.”
“Well maybe they could, but those trains have got the wrong livery on. It’s a different franchise you see. We’d have to order a whole lot of paint and logos before they can turn one wheel on the Dover line. Now who’s going to pay for that ?”.
“I don’t care. Look, just put the crews on overtime and send them down.”
“What’s overtime, mate ? No, haven’t paid that for years. We just cancel instead …….”

 

[Monty]

Comparing a national emergency where the Royal Navy commandeered a large number of civilian vessels as they were unable to deploy enough suitable ships for an evacuation themselves to a lack of capacity after let's say a footballing fixture is a moot point. Or are you saying we should be calling up the Mid Hants and ask if their Black 5 or 9F is spare?

 

[Carlisle]

Last summer the chilli peppers played knebworth house on a Saturday night. They came on stage something like an hour late and then played multiple en-coures resulting in hoards of people arriving at Stevenage station afterwards in the early hours of Sunday morning to find that they had missed the last trains south until about 7am.

FCC got a lot of criticism for that and the Hertfordshire police even phoned them to see if a special train could be run. FCC managed to re-jig the night diagrams and take a 12car from Hornsey to Stevenage and back to London a couple of times. Lucky there were no engineering works really.

But let's face it, that wasn't the railways fault at all. People failed to check timings of the last trains and the concert organisers failed to take train timings into account when allowing the concert to overrun so dramatically. But who did everyone blame? That's right, FCC.

They must have been using the same clock as Justin Bieber

 

[455driver]

It's all down to attitude.

Dunkirk evacuation 1940, in current style.

<lots of jibber removed>

So you are saying that a pop concert is on the same scale as the Dunkirk evacuation?

What a kn##!:roll:


Just because people are stupid enough to organise events at locations which have poor public transport or organise events at times which make public transport unviable you think its the railways fault, is that right?

A number of years ago 'they' decided to have a rugby International at Twickenham despite the fact the railways had told Twickenham Stadium (a year previously) that all lines from Clapham jn to Twickenham were closed that weekend for major engineering work (Twickers are made aware of any engineering work which may affect them), outcome was people saying the engineering work should be suspended (it takes a year to plan these sort of blockades) just because Twickers had decided the bigger telly cheque if they had the match that weekend was more important than people being able to actually get there and back home easily!

Whose fault is that then?

 

[PhilipW]

It's still happening
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/no-trains-after-world-cup-matches-in-cumbria-1.1090721
and
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-24488374

There is a Rugby World Cup match in Workington on October 29th and the following Sunday and the council and Rugby Authorities have asked Northern Rail if they can supply extra trains or extra carriages.


The answer "absolutely impossible" ....... unless of course someone else pays for it, in which case it will be possible.

"Oh yes .... and on the Sunday it may be a Rail replacement bus. Everyone has decided that it will be a good idea to close the line on the day of match"

 

[Drsatan]

It's still happening
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/no-trains-after-world-cup-matches-in-cumbria-1.1090721
and
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-24488374

There is a Rugby World Cup match in Workington on October 29th and the following Sunday and the council and Rugby Authorities have asked Northern Rail if they can supply extra trains or extra carriages.


The answer "absolutely impossible" ....... unless of course someone else pays for it, in which case it will be possible.

"Oh yes .... and on the Sunday it may be a Rail replacement bus."

Ideally, Northern would pay for one of the Charter TOCs to operate a couple of specials, subject to driver and stock availability. Unfortunately, the spokesperson from Northern is partially correct in stating that it won't be financially viable to operate any extra trains.

 

[PhilipW]

Ideally, Northern would pay for one of the Charter TOCs to operate a couple of specials, subject to driver and stock availability. Unfortunately, the spokesperson from Northern is partially correct in stating that it won't be financially viable to operate any extra trains.

.... but if a lot more people use the existing services, the passengers may not like the cramped conditions but Northern will make a lot of extra money from the events.

So running overcrowded trains seems to be the easiest way to make money. It's a funny old world !

 

[87015]

Ideally, Northern would pay for one of the Charter TOCs to operate a couple of specials, subject to driver and stock availability. Unfortunately, the spokesperson from Northern is partially correct in stating that it won't be financially viable to operate any extra trains.

Also a very different world to late night SWT services which are already running and a TOC with buckets of spare stock off-peak...

 

[455driver]

Ideally, Northern would pay for one of the Charter TOCs to operate a couple of specials, subject to driver and stock availability. Unfortunately, the spokesperson from Northern is partially correct in stating that it won't be financially viable to operate any extra trains.

Why should Northern pay?

Maybe the event organisers should pay for the extra trains and/or buses needed to transport the people to their event!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Oh yes .... and on the Sunday it may be a Rail replacement bus. Everyone has decided that it will be a good idea to close the line on the day of match"

What was organised first, the engineering work or the football match?

 

[Taunton]

Just because people are stupid enough to organise events at locations which have poor public transport or organise events at times which make public transport unviable

OK, lets go back to 1978. Bob Dylan at Blackbushe Airfield (who else was there? ). Fleet station on the Waterloo main line a couple of miles walk away. About 1/4 million attended. Finished after midnight.

Despised old British Rail however had it all together. Empty 12EPB queued up at almost every signal on the up local from Fleet back to Basingstoke, even at 1-2 am. Every division of the old SR had contributed. Huge queue management at Fleet station. Everyone was sold tickets.

 

[455driver]

OK, lets go back to 1978. Bob Dylan at Blackbushe Airfield (who else was there? ). Fleet station on the Waterloo main line a couple of miles walk away. About 1/4 million attended. Finished after midnight.

Despised old British Rail however had it all together. Empty 12EPB queued up at almost every signal on the up local from Fleet back to Basingstoke, even at 1-2 am. Every division of the old SR had contributed. Everyone was sold tickets.

Yeah and?

That was then (when those staff would normally be sat in the messroom playing cards with no booked work but still getting paid for it), this is now (the only staff on duty are doing their normal booked driving job and nobody is sat spare, being paid to do nothing).

Do you see the difference or are you prepared to have your ticket prices increased to pay for 50 or 60 drivers throughout the country to sit spare in the messrooms overnight just in case they are needed!

 

[Eagle]

That was also when the TOC and the infrastructure owner were the same company, so it was easier to approve that.

(And also when there was less congestion on the SWML making it easier to find paths.)

 

[306024]

Hence why I suggested sitting down and chatting about it. The railway could well turn around and say, nope sorry can't help you, but equally it might become obvious that this is going to be a major event and that being a major transport provider the railway should if possible to play a role.

And of course if they did revenue at the station to make sure everyone had a ticket they might well make some money

I'm not suggesting that the railway should bend over backwards to accomdate everything from the Olympics to the Derbyshire Women's Instute annual bake stall. But surely there's room to talk about it?

Agree with all of that. Communication with the organisers is key. Some good examples:

Football (or perhaps mongball) at Tottenham. At the planning stage the revised train plan will have two options if the game has the potential for 30 mins extra time. Control work to whichever plan is appropriate but will have to keep a close eye if penalties go on a bit.

V festival at Chelmsford. Bigger than any football match on GA. Frequent trains back to London and Ipswich right up to 01.30 on both Saturday and Sunday nights. And good fun to work at too, especially when the police sniffer dog is looking for drugs.

West Runton Women's Institute cake party. No I haven't made that up. An annual event by the station adopters. Always features a photograph of the driver being given a piece of cake.

 

[cjmillsnun]

We live in a different world to the past.

1. There is a profit motive rather than the social good. Much as I dislike that I cannot blame the TOCs, RosCos, Siemens or Network Rail (OK NR technically doesn't make a profit, however they need to be as efficient as possible).

2. The event organisers aren't willing to contribute despite making ££££ from ticket sales.

3. Driver hour limits are different to what they were.

4. Planned track maintenance has to go ahead (especially in the wake of Hatfield, Potters Bar and Grayrigg) - We live in a much more risk averse world as people will go to court.

5. The assets (rolling stock) are sweated and without very careful planning far enough in advance it is difficult to take account of this.

That isn't to say something can't be organised, just that it is more difficult to do so than it used to be.

Where a regular service is regularly overcrowded, then that is something DfT need to look at especially if stock is run close to mileage limits before maintenance. It may involve extra stock purchase or cascade from elsewhere (another TOC)

 

[sheff1]

Yeah and?

That was then (when those staff would normally be sat in the messroom playing cards with no booked work but still getting paid for it), this is now (the only staff on duty are doing their normal booked driving job and nobody is sat spare, being paid to do nothing)

Do you see the difference or are you prepared to have your ticket prices increased to pay for 50 or 60 drivers throughout the country to sit spare in the messrooms overnight just in case they are needed!

Why is the answer nowadays always 'It'll cost you guv' ?

Rather strange that, having done away with all those apparently unnecessarily expensive practices, the privatised railway requires far more subsidy than BR ever did.

 

[Carlisle]

So you are saying that a pop concert is on the same scale as the Dunkirk evacuation?

What a kn##!:roll:


Just because people are stupid enough to organise events at locations which have poor public transport or organise events at times which make public transport unviable you think its the railways fault, is that right?

A number of years ago 'they' decided to have a rugby International at Twickenham despite the fact the railways had told Twickenham Stadium (a year previously) that all lines from Clapham jn to Twickenham were closed that weekend for major engineering work (Twickers are made aware of any engineering work which may affect them), outcome was people saying the engineering work should be suspended (it takes a year to plan these sort of blockades) just because Twickers had decided the bigger telly cheque if they had the match that weekend was more important than people being able to actually get there and back home easily!

Whose fault is that then?

I appreciate your point about the time involved in planning major engineering works but railways are still quite heavily dependant on the public purse for their operation so they should at least try to respond to public demand including additional and longer trains where possible rather than mereley quoting contractural obligations as seems to happen all to often

 

[455driver]

railways are still quite heavily dependant on the public purse for their operation so they should at least try to respond to public demand including additional and longer trains where possible rather than mereley quoting contractural obligations as seems to happen all to often

How much is the road network subsidised? Why not a fleet of coaches then?

The subsidy paid to the railways is to provide the current contracted services, if the government wants the railways to be more flexible (gets my vote) then there needs to be more (spare) stock and more (spare) crews, the government wont pay, the TOCs are only on short term contracts (so wont get a return on their investment) and the event organisers are too busy running to the bank, so who pays for the flexibility?

 

[Eagle]

How much is the road network subsidised? Why not a fleet of coaches then?

And coaches are cheaper, don't require pathing, and are easier to find staff for (there are whole companies specializing in that, they're called coach hire companies :P).

 

[455driver]

And coaches are cheaper, don't require pathing, and are easier to find staff for (there are whole companies specializing in that, they're called coach hire companies :P).

But the difference is those coach companies want paying up front, everyone is expecting the railways to put the extra trains on for free!

 

[martybabes]

It's all down to attitude.

Dunkirk evacuation 1940, in current style.

“Hello, is that FranchiseRail Dover. Quick, I need to speak to the top man”.
“Yeah”.
“Right, everyone’s coming back from France, we need trains to move them all back to base”.
“Well that’s your fault, mate. Have you booked seats ?”
“Certainly not. How quickly can you get them away ?”
“Well, there’s an hourly 2-car stopper to Ashford.”
“Can’t you get every train out into service ?”
“Oooh, no. The franchise don’t allow for that. We’d have to renegotiate.”
“How long will that take ?”
“Normally 18 months.”
“Look, just send every possible train down to Dover.”
“Ain’t none spare. There’s 16 units awaiting daily exams. Can’t possibly use those today though. If they aren’t looked at it’s against our ISO 9000, which the bosses just won’t risk being lost. No way.”
“But there are 350,000 men coming back over.”
“Well I hope they’ve all got tickets. I’d better send a dozen grippers over pronto with lots of penalty fare forms.”
“Don’t be ridiculous, this is an emergency.”
“Any disabled ?
“Yes, there are a lot of injured.”
“Well, we have a limit. Only two wheelchair passengers per train. And they have to book. Shall I put the forms in the post ?”
“But I’m sat here in an office at Victoria and can see lots of trains sat here doing nothing.”
“You must be joking, mate. That’s Brighton Line stock. No safety case to come down to Dover”.
“Well how long will that take to sort out ?”
“Oh, normally about 2 years. And anyway, the Brighton crews don’t sign the road.”
“Look, just send them all down here pronto, the drivers will be able to handle it.”
“Well maybe they could, but those trains have got the wrong livery on. It’s a different franchise you see. We’d have to order a whole lot of paint and logos before they can turn one wheel on the Dover line. Now who’s going to pay for that ?”.
“I don’t care. Look, just put the crews on overtime and send them down.”
“What’s overtime, mate ? No, haven’t paid that for years. We just cancel instead …….”

Not only is this the best thing I have read on here since I joined but it also has a very clear element of truth about it. This is evident from the reaction of those who have so singularly failed to see the message within it or are upset by how close to a nerve - the truth - it hits. You know who you are (and some of you need to lighten up a bit).

Bravo Taunton
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Comparing a national emergency where the Royal Navy commandeered a large number of civilian vessels as they were unable to deploy enough suitable ships for an evacuation themselves to a lack of capacity after let's say a footballing fixture is a moot point.

And this is exactly what is happening here.

 

[Carlisle]

And coaches are cheaper, don't require pathing, and are easier to find staff for (there are whole companies specializing in that, they're called coach hire companies :P).

Countries like New Zealand have followed your line of thinking ,with most of their railways becoming a freight carrier or tourist attraction .i hope that does not happen here .

 

[Flamingo]

Simple solution. As the trains are going to be so crowded going to & from events, reclassify them as "Peak" (as in high demand) and charge peak prices, thereby using price to regulate demand as already happens.

Airlines do it with major sporting events, nobody seems to argue with them.

I can never understand how some people will pay extortionate amounts for tickets to events, but expect the railway to transport them for next to nothing.

 

[HSTEd]

Yeah and?

That was then (when those staff would normally be sat in the messroom playing cards with no booked work but still getting paid for it), this is now (the only staff on duty are doing their normal booked driving job and nobody is sat spare, being paid to do nothing).

As I understand it, being paid almost nothing to do nothing.

One of the reasons that driver's are far more 'efficiently' used is because driver pay (and indeed all railway pay) has escalated drastically since those days.

 

[A-driver]

Not only is this the best thing I have read on here since I joined but it also has a very clear element of truth about it. This is evident from the reaction of those who have so singularly failed to see the message within it or are upset by how close to a nerve - the truth - it hits. You know who you are (and some of you need to lighten up a bit).

Bravo Taunton
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I completely disagree. It's far from the best thing on here, it is just silly and far from any truth in it.

TOCs have shown that they will make changes to plans where possible (as I showed with FCC running additional trains overnight for the knebworth concert which overran) and if there was a national emergency the railway companies would of course do everything to help out.

It is a funny read I agree, but it certainly isn't realistic and there is no 'element of truth' to it either.

 

[34D]

Yeah and?

That was then (when those staff would normally be sat in the messroom playing cards with no booked work but still getting paid for it), this is now (the only staff on duty are doing their normal booked driving job and nobody is sat spare, being paid to do nothing).

Do you see the difference or are you prepared to have your ticket prices increased to pay for 50 or 60 drivers throughout the country to sit spare in the messrooms overnight just in case they are needed!

Are you saying your TOC has no spare drivers I don't believe that for one minute.

 

[A-driver]

Are you saying your TOC has no spare drivers I don't believe that for one minute.

How many drivers do you think they have sitting spare at 2300?

Normally there will be a few spares around January-early April when less drivers are taking leave etc but the rest of the year you have drivers off on annual leave and less volunteers for rest day work, more special turns created for large events etc and so it's very likely that there will be no spares about as they will all be covering existing jobs, no chance of covering additional diagrams.

At my toc lately they have been cancelling most planned extra trains ( football trains etc) as they have been struggling to cover the planned jobs. Infact they are cancelling so many normal planned trains due to no driver that there is no chance of sending out extra trains. Very occasionally there will be a driver sitting spare somewhere on the network at either morning, afternoon or overnight but certainly not many sitting spare around the clock.

Plus on SWT you need to take into account that you need 2 spare train crew to run a service, plus spare stock in a practicle location and the 2 members if crew both need the relevant route knowledge and traction knowledge to get the unit out of the yard, into service and along the route that the extra train is running.

So it's very likely that the toc has no spare drivers - id certainly start believing it for far longer than one minute if I were you, this is the real world, not a fantasy world were everything is perfect that you appear to be living in!

 

[PhilipW]

Going back to my original post, I never for one second was suggesting that SWT should produce an extra train at short notice at 23:00 at night. I realise that is impossible.

I was just suggesting that existing services should be strengthened by extra carriages. Again I also realise that that too is impossible at short notice. However, if there is a persistent problem with overcrowding on certain trains as there appears to be, I would like to think that these trains could be strengthened on a regular basis in the future. Last Friday's one-off football match just compounded an existing problem.

I hear all the comments about the problems in regularly strengthening certain services but finding extra carriages and programming them into use at 22:00 to 23:00 on a Friday and Saturday evening does not seem like a problem that could not be overcome ....... unless of course saving money and running as few coaches as possible to achieve that is in the mind set of the TOC. I know it appears cynical to say that ... but sadly I think that there is some element of truth in it.

 

[Mintona]

The biggest problem with the football (England) is that the event is in Wembley, and so LO/LU/Chiltern know there are going to be a lot of extra people travelling, and can amend diagrams etc. accordingly. But the other TOCs have no idea how many people are going to be travelling on their trains, as England fans travel from all over the country and could be using any services. There aren't enough spare trains in the evening to extend every single train leaving London after 22.00, as quite a lot of the extra carriages will be far from London having worked evening peak services out.

I do agree with the general point though that TOCs should be looking to increase the number of coaches on trains later into the evening. It's wrong that you'll find that a service is 15 minutely with 8 coaches through the peak, as soon as 8pm arrives it goes down to a half hourly service formed of 4 coach trains. TOCs should be keeping more trains out of the sidings until later into the evening IMO.