Gross overcrowding on the 23:05 Waterloo to Poole service

[CalderRail]

I'm prepared to bet that most of the people on that service will not have had a valid ticket for it. Most will have been on "booked train only" and gone on the last one knowing there's no way the conductor was going to check them.

Makes it difficult for the TOC to gauge demand.

 

[TEW]

Friday and Saturday late evenings out of Waterloo are always a problem. Try getting on the last trains from Clapham on a Saturday evening, you just can't on a lot of them, lots of people get turned away. Nearly every service on a Saturday evening is a 4-car unit though.

 

[PhilipW]

Friday and Saturday late evenings out of Waterloo are always a problem. Try getting on the last trains from Clapham on a Saturday evening, you just can't on a lot of them, lots of people get turned away. Nearly every service on a Saturday evening is a 4-car unit though.

If Friday and Saturday evenings are recognised as a problem, then the question has to be "What plans does SWT have to try and resolve the problem ". This really is the underlying point behind the whole thread.

My understanding is that all the xx.05 and xx.35 Bournemouth services from 19:35 to 23:35 inclusive are only booked for a single 5-car Class 444 set which from my own experience generally (not just last Friday) is not sufficient on some services.

I have been on already full trains that have had to squeeze more people on at Clapham (22:05 and 23:05), but if people have been unable to board as reported above, that really is bad.

I can't comment on the 00:05 service which I have not travelled on and which I believe may be longer, but don't know for a fact.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite. If there's a one-off problem (say a sporting event that went on longer than expected, causing people to miss specially strengthened services) then, whilst not brilliant, it is understandable. Where there's frequent overcrowding problems late night, this is something that the TOCs should be looking at- and the DfT too.

 

[34D]

Can't add a unit, for reasons already stated above (too short notice).

This is of the railways own making. I remember in the 1980s that extra DMUs were often added to trains on a whim.

The industry has created the situation where nothing can move without a path being created, where two EMUs take 10 minutes to couple and then another 10 minutes to reboot, etc etc.

Re planning for events, TOCs seem remarkably good at planning for Dry Trains.

 

[306024]

I would suggest the politicians have created such a contractual straight-jacket that it remarkable anything moves at all

 

[A-driver]

Sorry but overcrowding once in a while after events like this will happen. It's got nothing to do with politicians, TOCs, network rail or anyone else and is certainly not a problem isolated to the UK.

A while ago I was on a cruise holiday and we stopped at zebrugge. Most of the ships passengers caught the train into Bruges. On the way back we were told the last train you could catch to be back in time for sailing was at about 1700. We aimed for the one before that. The train came in as a single unit and half the people on the platform couldn't fit on the train. The train was already mobbed when it arrived at Bruges and when we all crammed on board it was a different league of overcrowding to rush hour trains into places like Moorgate or London bridge. Kids sitting under their parents legs etc and infact the guard had to tell someone to get off so that he could squeeze on to close the doors! Other people on the ship told me later that the next train was just as bad and many had to pay for a taxi to avoid being left behind! It was very similar getting the train back to port from Rome, made even worse by a complete lack of staff or info in any language telling us which train was going where. I believe it was pure luck that we managed to find a train going back to civiteveccia and again it was overcrowding in a different league to peak time London commuter trains and absolutely unbearable heat.

I have never seen trains so rammed in all my years of being a passenger or driver in the UK as I have on Belgium and Italian railways so this certainly isn't a British problem caused by privatisation.

 

[306024]

Just because Belgian and Italian Railways can't get their act together doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Additional trains run between Liverpool St and Harwich International for the larger cruise ships so it can be done.

Of course it isn't directly all due to privatisation, but nevertheless a whole lot of agreements, contracts and costs all exist now that didn't use to. All very easy to use as an excuse to do nothing.

 

[A-driver]

Just because Belgian and Italian Railways can't get their act together doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Additional trains run between Liverpool St and Harwich International for the larger cruise ships so it can be done.

Of course it isn't directly all due to privatisation, but nevertheless a whole lot of agreements, contracts and costs all exist now that didn't use to. All very easy to use as an excuse to do nothing.

My post was in response to those blaming issues like overcrowding on politicians, privatisation etc and those saying that it is a British problem and the rest of the world is so much better. Overcrowding happens all over the world- just look at those 'superb' Japanese trains which come with station staff to push people inside the doors!

As people have explained, it's not as easy as just adding a few extra coaches late at night. There is far more to it.

 

[306024]

The original point was not so much about overcrowding as such, but that only half a train was provided. As I have spent much of my career diagramming units I also know it is not as impossible to strengthen trains as some are pretending.

 

[A-driver]

The original point was not so much about overcrowding as such, but that only half a train was provided. As I have spent much of my career diagramming units I also know it is not as impossible to strengthen trains as some are pretending.

The original post seemed more a rant about not getting a seat. All it says is that not everyone got a seat until later in the journey and that the guard didn't apologise that some had to stand. For all we know there were. 3 people standing in each coach... Stick on an extra 5 coaches and you end up paying to run a train carrying nothing but fresh air.

 

[306024]

Don't disagree that the definition of overcrowding is very subjective, but as this train calls at Clapham Jn, Woking, Basingstoke and Micheldever before Winchester if is fair to assume from the OP that train was indeed 'busy'. In journey time that is the equivalent to standing to Colchester or Ipswich on my line, not something I have ever had to do late at night.

 

[Bald Rick]

But slab track can go decades without any maintenance apart from grinding which can be done amongsttraffic now.

Not quite. There is still weekly patrolling, rail defect removal, IBJ changes, re-padding, etc etc. Plus maintenance for all the other non-track assets. So the reduction in access required is minimal.

 

[island]

The later southeastern services from Charing Cross are often standing only. I've had a time when once was curtailed at new Cross due to a fault. The amount of people on the platform was insane. The next train was so full some people couldn't get on. Not ideal at midnight. The platform crowding, train at crush capacity, and people left behind with a long wait due to infrequent late night services was worse than rush hour. Even before the issue the train was busier than most rush hour services leaving central London.

As another SET user I can agree that this is regularly the case. The 0002 Charing Cross to Dartford via Sidcup is regularly full and standing leaving Waterloo East before another throng of people crushes on at London Bridge. Ditto the preceding Bexleyheath line service and the following semi-fast Gillingham via Lewisham and Abbey Wood. They are regularly formed of 8 coaches from the Networker family (would like to say 465 but am probably wrong) and I would very much like to see this changed to 10 coaches from the Electrostar family (376?) as these have far more room.

 

[Tom B]

This is of the railways own making. I remember in the 1980s that extra DMUs were often added to trains on a whim.

The industry has created the situation where nothing can move without a path being created, where two EMUs take 10 minutes to couple and then another 10 minutes to reboot, etc etc.

Re planning for events, TOCs seem remarkably good at planning for Dry Trains.

Indeed; today's fragmented railway will blame some process or procedure or contract or whatnot and think that's a valid reason why it can't happen. Passengers don't care about the internal workings!

Perhaps if the service was formed so as to give a comfortable journey on a normal day, a particularly busy event would have been easily absorbed?

Re: passengers unable to board the last train, I wonder how much luck people would have in arranging further transport? Does the railway have an obligation to a passenger who is unable to catch the last train of the day due to their failure to provide sufficient rolling stock?

 

[ModernRailways]

Re: passengers unable to board the last train, I wonder how much luck people would have in arranging further transport? Does the railway have an obligation to a passenger who is unable to catch the last train of the day due to their failure to provide sufficient rolling stock?

Was just wondering this myself. If a train is cancelled, then they have to get you as close to your destination as possible, then either give a Taxi or put you in a hotel until the next day.

How this would work should the train be full and standing I have no idea, especially since staff tend to be next to non-existent after 8pm or so.

 

[A-driver]

Was just wondering this myself. If a train is cancelled, then they have to get you as close to your destination as possible, then either give a Taxi or put you in a hotel until the next day.

How this would work should the train be full and standing I have no idea, especially since staff tend to be next to non-existent after 8pm or so.

Well staff certainly won't be non existent at London terminals or other major stations after 8pm will they as they are needed to dispatch the trains. If the last train leaves people behind due to overcrowding then they will get you home by other means, weather that means additional stops on a later train or a taxi.

 

[ModernRailways]

Well staff certainly won't be non existent at London terminals or other major stations after 8pm will they as they are needed to dispatch the trains. If the last train leaves people behind due to overcrowding then they will get you home by other means, weather that means additional stops on a later train or a taxi.

Obviously at a London Terminus it is different, but not everyone boards there. Even when I was at Paddington one night at around 23:30 there were no staff to be seen. All of the local services were self dispatched, this may well have changed since. Waterloo and Victoria are the same, with Victoria having staff at Gatwick Express and then maybe two members of staff dispatching trains. 8pm may have been a bit early, certainly 10/11pm seems to be when staff numbers really start to dwindle down. Gateline staff tend to disappear as soon as the peaks are over, in fact Victoria is the only London station where I can recall the barriers still being manned at 10pm, every other station has had them open with the exception of the Underground!

On board staff may be able to do something, but most will just say 'Go find a member of station staff' and if they do plan on helping then there is a high chance they will say that someone will be sent over to help you out, but that person will never get there. Obviously not all staff are like that, but quite a few are.

 

[TEW]

Waterloo barriers are staffed late into the evening. Clapham also has plenty of staff around still late in the evening.

 

[A-driver]

Obviously at a London Terminus it is different, but not everyone boards there. Even when I was at Paddington one night at around 23:30 there were no staff to be seen. All of the local services were self dispatched, this may well have changed since. Waterloo and Victoria are the same, with Victoria having staff at Gatwick Express and then maybe two members of staff dispatching trains. 8pm may have been a bit early, certainly 10/11pm seems to be when staff numbers really start to dwindle down. Gateline staff tend to disappear as soon as the peaks are over, in fact Victoria is the only London station where I can recall the barriers still being manned at 10pm, every other station has had them open with the exception of the Underground!

On board staff may be able to do something, but most will just say 'Go find a member of station staff' and if they do plan on helping then there is a high chance they will say that someone will be sent over to help you out, but that person will never get there. Obviously not all staff are like that, but quite a few are.

I highly doubt any doo trains self dispatch from paddington, there is no doo equipment for a start there. There will be platform staff dispatching all the trains. Same at Victoria, no train will leave there without platform staff, guard worked or doo. And if a guard worked train was to self dispatch and leave people behind then even the most lazy and uncaring guard wouldn't just ignore you and leave you behind. They would let control know and ensure alternative transport was provided.

As for people not boarding at a London terminal, any unmanned station after that will see more people getting off than getting on. If here is a major event near a smaller unstaffed station then they will most certainly provide extra staff there at the end of the event.

I have never known a last train of the night to be so full that it leaves people behind. Most events finish far earlier than the end of service. Even on Friday and Saturday nights the busy trains seem to be 2100-0000 with the last few trains after that being slightly emptier. For example, the last train of the night out of kings cross Sunday-Friday night (mon-sat morning) is generally lightly loaded. Thur and fir nights can see it standing room only for the first few stops but the 0036 is a far busier service. I'd be very suprised if the 0136 ever left anyone behind.

But if the last one was so overcrowded that people couldn't board then they certainly wouldn't leave you stranded. The platform staff would see you there before dispatching the train as they wouldn't be able to get the doors closed and so would speak to control and get taxis booked or a later train to drop you off if possible.

 

[HSTEd]

Not quite. There is still weekly patrolling, rail defect removal, IBJ changes, re-padding, etc etc.

There are examples of installations on the continent where no repadding or similar possession requiring maintenance has been carried out for 25 years or more.
('High Speed Grinding' allows for a majority of rail defects to be removed by a train rolling at 80-100kph over the affected track).

Surely patrolling can be done using high speed cameras from things like the track recording train now?

Plus maintenance for all the other non-track assets. So the reduction in access required is minimal.

The non track assets that are going to be steadily reducing in scale in the near(ish) future?

ERTMS is supposedly going to allow most of the signalling infrastructure to be disposed of, and electrification supplies are supposed to be becoming lower and lower maintenance as years go by (I believe that is what the obsession with 'life cycle costs' is about?)

 

[Carlisle]

Chiltern Railways did an excellent job at Wembley Stadium Station on both occasions I was there for major evening events. Extra services and plenty of staff and signs to marshal people to their trains. So it can be done !

Chiltern have not always covered themselves with glory ,there was that farcical episode a few years back when England were playing at wembley during a tube strike so chiltern decided not to stop any their trains at wembley either allegedly on safety grounds ,very useful ,not .

 

[SF-02]

I'm prepared to bet that most of the people on that service will not have had a valid ticket for it. Most will have been on "booked train only" and gone on the last one knowing there's no way the conductor was going to check them.

Makes it difficult for the TOC to gauge demand.

Surely word would get back from staff? Some stations could still be staffed late and with high demand these days would cover costs, but even if not I wish the wider benefits would be acknowledged in terms of more late night businesses equaling higher tax revenues thus worth keeping running a bit later on weekends.

The issue of how the TOC gets people home is one I'm not sure of. The issue I had where a very busy second to last train was stopped at New Cross with a fault led to hundreds on the platform with no staff around. Really busy - people squeezed beyond the yellow lines. I managed to get a lift after 20 minutes. Presumably the driver (it's a DOO service) would have done something when the last train arrived full and some couldn't get on. One issue with routine overcrowded late services is that due to the lower frequencies at those times, and early last trains on many lines, if something goes wrong big problems ensue.

 

[antharro]

My understanding is that all the xx.05 and xx.35 Bournemouth services from 19:35 to 23:35 inclusive are only booked for a single 5-car Class 444 set which from my own experience generally (not just last Friday) is not sufficient on some services.

I take the 19.35 at least once a week on various days and it is always made up of 10 cars - 5 from Portsmouth and 5 from Weymouth. Even when services were seriously delayed a couple of months ago, it still ran as a 10 car. The five from Portsmouth waited 40 minutes for the 5 from Weymouth and we left at around 20.10. I can only remember one occasion when it was a 5 carriage train, and that was (off the top of my head) due to a train failure at Basingstoke or Woking, I forget which.

 

[PhilipW]

Thanks 'Antharro. Happy to be corrected about the 19:35.

 

[A-driver]

Chiltern have not always covered themselves with glory ,there was that farcical episode a few years back when England were playing at wembley during a tube strike so chiltern decided not to stop any their trains at wembley either allegedly on safety grounds ,very useful ,not .

If there are no tubes and chiltern stopped at wembley the station and trains would be swamped. It would be dangerous. Closing the station is often done in these circumstances. Same as closing the closest stations to Hyde park after a major event there-it disperses the crowd by forcing people to head elsewhere. If the met line station is closed then pretty much the entire stadium will head to the 2 chiltern platforms, most probably on the London bound platform, and it will just cause crushes on the platform and trains.

They didn't do it to be unhelpful, they did it because if they kept the station open and someone went under a train in a stampede or someone was hurt or trampled in a crowd then they would get into a lot of trouble for it.

 

[Carlisle]

Cheers for the explanation ,i could just recall chiltern being criticised on the news that evening for tacking that action .

 

[Flamingo]

I can remember FGW being criticised in the Swansea papers a few years ago for not holding the last Swansea train when Swansea City was playing in London and the game went to extra time.:roll:

 

[A-driver]

I can remember FGW being criticised in the Swansea papers a few years ago for not holding the last Swansea train when Swansea City was playing in London and the game went to extra time.:roll:

Last summer the chilli peppers played knebworth house on a Saturday night. They came on stage something like an hour late and then played multiple en-coures resulting in hoards of people arriving at Stevenage station afterwards in the early hours of Sunday morning to find that they had missed the last trains south until about 7am.

FCC got a lot of criticism for that and the Hertfordshire police even phoned them to see if a special train could be run. FCC managed to re-jig the night diagrams and take a 12car from Hornsey to Stevenage and back to London a couple of times. Lucky there were no engineering works really.

But let's face it, that wasn't the railways fault at all. People failed to check timings of the last trains and the concert organisers failed to take train timings into account when allowing the concert to overrun so dramatically. But who did everyone blame? That's right, FCC.

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course what would have been best would have been for the concert organisers to sit down with FCC and Network Rail to try and coordinate things in the weeks/months prior to the event. For instance for the concert organisers to start the show (or at least try to) an hour earlier perhaps, whilst FCC and Network Rail could have worked together to try and ensure there were a couple of extra trains back southbound (and possibly northbound) which could be held to get people back from the concert.

Kudos to FCC for rummaging up what they did and they certainly aren't to blame but it would be nice if people like this and the railway could coordinate between themselves a bit better with a little of give and take on both sides perhaps to come up with the best outcome for concert atendees and then railway customers.