Electrification & Rolling Stock Cascade Impact Review

[Class377/5]

The question really is whether they will need separate approval to run on the network (new electronics/traction package/bogies etc).

Network Rail wanted the 350/2 to be clearanced on the north end of the WCML when used on TPE training trips even tho the 350/1 were cleared.

 

[SF-02]

Sorry if this has been mentioned but are Class 365 leaving Thameslink? If so could they go to lengthen Southeastern Class 465 units?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sorry if this has been mentioned but are Class 365 leaving Thameslink? If so could they go to lengthen Southeastern Class 465 units?

AFAIK the current plan is to keep them on the KX-Cambridge & Kings Lynn services.

 

[Manchester77]

It's not mentions in the TSGN ITT however there is talk of 100 emu carriages to go to SE so will probably be 377s

 

[jopsuk]

AFAIK the current plan is to keep them on the KX-Cambridge & Kings Lynn services.

By my estimate, the Cambridge/Kings Lynn Express requires (off peak) something like 11 units- with more at peak times

 

[61653 HTAFC]

By my estimate, the Cambridge/Kings Lynn Express requires (off peak) something like 11 units- with more at peak times

I did wonder about that. Presumably there'll be and increase of units used on those services, or there'll be some peak Peterborough-Kings Cross runs retained. I was under the impression from previous posts on these forums that no 365s were likely to be available for use in the North.

 

[jopsuk]

the calculation for 11 by the way (as I like to show my working)
As far as I know, most off peaks are 8 car, CBG-KGX (and return). I'm happy to be corrected.
The trip + turnaround is done in one hour- so the xx15 departure from Cambridge can become the yy15 departure from Kings Cross

So, excluding the Kings Lynn extension, that's four 8 car sets- ie 8 units.

Kings Lynn and turn around is done in a bit over an hour. Unless I'm going very wrong, this requires three further units.

Peak time there's 12 car trains and some services that are 8-car at least to Ely, if not further.

 

[IanXC]

I know there's some distance between a fleet of 40 units and the figure of 11 diagrams, but presumably 365s could be used for Corby?

Presumably TSGN will only have 1 type of unit other than 700s north of the core?

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry if this has been mentioned but are Class 365 leaving Thameslink? If so could they go to lengthen Southeastern Class 465 units?

It was mentioned earlier in the thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1570644&postcount=48 377s have been looked at as possible class 365 replacement. A Guardian journalist suggested 365s could be heading North after TPE electrification which a lot of people on this forum as dismissed any possibility of.

 

[Class377/5]

It's not mentions in the TSGN ITT however there is talk of 100 emu carriages to go to SE so will probably be 377s

The ITT clearly states 100x 377 carriages on page 77.

the calculation for 11 by the way (as I like to show my working)
As far as I know, most off peaks are 8 car, CBG-KGX (and return). I'm happy to be corrected.
The trip + turnaround is done in one hour- so the xx15 departure from Cambridge can become the yy15 departure from Kings Cross

So, excluding the Kings Lynn extension, that's four 8 car sets- ie 8 units.

Kings Lynn and turn around is done in a bit over an hour. Unless I'm going very wrong, this requires three further units.

Peak time there's 12 car trains and some services that are 8-car at least to Ely, if not further.

Off peak the 365 will have to run the Cambridge stoppers & Kings Lynn services with peak trains to Peterborough and Potters Bar. Don't forget Kings Lynn gets 2tph all day during the TSGN franchise.

I know there's some distance between a fleet of 40 units and the figure of 11 diagrams, but presumably 365s could be used for Corby?

Presumably TSGN will only have 1 type of unit other than 700s north of the core?

See above for the first part.

TSGN will run three types of units north of the Core (not including the Milton Keynes service). 313, 365 & 700. Only on the MML will TSGN see one fleet type.

 

[tbtc]

I know there's some distance between a fleet of 40 units and the figure of 11 diagrams, but presumably 365s could be used for Corby?

I suggested this a couple of weeks ago, but nobody else seemed keen.

I think it makes sense to have TSGN operate a self contained Corby - St Pancras service (rather than EMT), and the same stock as the Cambridge services (i.e. 365s) would fit in nicely - certainly no need for all forty on the GN side (but would avoid a tiny fleet of units specifically for Corby)

 

[Class377/5]

I suggested this a couple of weeks ago, but nobody else seemed keen.

I think it makes sense to have TSGN operate a self contained Corby - St Pancras service (rather than EMT), and the same stock as the Cambridge services (i.e. 365s) would fit in nicely - certainly no need for all forty on the GN side (but would avoid a tiny fleet of units specifically for Corby)

But TSGN will not be operating to Corby but EMT/its successor will be with and the ITT states that part of Cauldwell depot will given over to the intercity franchise from 2017 for stock.

Of course changes can be made, the ITT states this, but currently the Corby going to TSGN is just pure fantasy at this point. And one that is far from the core area of the franchise.

 

[hwl]

It still isn't clear wha the complete TSGN cascade plan is

From the ITT document

return vehicles to the relevant ROSCO or other vehicle owner in accordance with the requirements set out in Table 5.4.3 (Vehicles to be released from the TSGN franchise) below, so that they are available for cascade to other Franchises; and

Table 5.4.3 has 3 categories of unit to be released (all 4 car):
[explicitly excluding 313, 442, 25x 377 units to SE as above and 6x initial 319 heading to the northwest pre TSGN franchise]
[455s are only 75mph units]
1) 110mph AC capable (or Dual voltage), i.e. class 387 29x 4 car units
2) 100mph AC capable (or Dual voltage), 4 car units so 319, 317, 321, 365 or 377/1-5 82x 4 car units
3) 100mph DC capable (or Dual voltage), 4 car units so 319, 365 (yes originally DV capable I believe) or 377/1-5 44x 4 car units

How the 2nd and 3rd categories are made up will be interesting as there is no “clean” solution based on those numbers.

After excluding the initial 6x 319 there remain
80x 319s
12x 317s
13x 321s
40x 365s
39x remaining 377/1s (assuming 25 to SE)
15x 377/2
75x 377/4s
23x 377/5s

Total 126 (82+44) units to cascade in the 2nd + 3rd categories
So minus 80x 319s (out of both 2nd + 3rd categories) leaves 46 other units with would leave a class or sub class split between operators and one with a micro-fleet?
Assume total of 25x 317s and 321s which leaves 21 other units to cascade so 365 or 377s? Which would leave an operator with a micro fleet? (Unless SE gets more than the initial 25 377s)

Unless DfT is assuming the new TSGN operator orders some new stock or takes up options for 35x additional 387 units?

 

[Eagle]

Corby won't get 365s. It'll need something capable of at least 110 (and possibly even need 125 now that speeds on the MML are being increased).

 

[Class377/5]

Corby won't get 365s. It'll need something capable of at least 110 (and possibly even need 125 now that speeds on the MML are being increased).

And the future draft of the electric MML TT was based around 4/8/12 car 'all stations' service to Leicester with gangwayed stock. 387's make sense for that or TPE. However wasn't it EMT's MD that said he wanted 125mph stock recently?

The 365 don't make sense of moving but living out their lives on the GN.

 

[tbtc]

I suggested this a couple of weeks ago, but nobody else seemed keen.

I think it makes sense to have TSGN operate a self contained Corby - St Pancras service (rather than EMT), and the same stock as the Cambridge services (i.e. 365s) would fit in nicely - certainly no need for all forty on the GN side (but would avoid a tiny fleet of units specifically for Corby)

But TSGN will not be operating to Corby but EMT/its successor will be with and the ITT states that part of Cauldwell depot will given over to the intercity franchise from 2017 for stock.

Of course changes can be made, the ITT states this, but currently the Corby going to TSGN is just pure fantasy at this point. And one that is far from the core area of the franchise.

I'm suggesting my personal opinion, not pretending that its fact-not sure why you are accusing me of "pure fantasy"?

If TSGN are going to run from Brighton to Bedford and also serve Kings Lynn, Southampton, Peterborough, Milton Keynes, Hastings etc then a few miles up the line to Corby isn't going to give them a nosebleed!

The 365 don't make sense of moving but living out their lives on the GN.

...except that the Great Northern really won't need forty of them, however many peak extras you create, there'd still be a handful spare for London - Corby in my opinion.

 

[hwl]

And the future draft of the electric MML TT was based around 4/8/12 car 'all stations' service to Leicester with gangwayed stock. 387's make sense for that or TPE. However wasn't it EMT's MD that said he wanted 125mph stock recently?

The 365 don't make sense of moving but living out their lives on the GN.

If some 365 don't go then some 377s have to go instead...

No one seems to have any knowledge as to which of the 2 will happen or is more likely in DfT hidden plan.

So where would transferring a fleet of part of a sub class of 377s make sense apart from more to SE?

 

[Class377/5]

I'm suggesting my personal opinion, not pretending that its fact-not sure why you are accusing me of "pure fantasy"?

If TSGN are going to run from Brighton to Bedford and also serve Kings Lynn, Southampton, Peterborough, Milton Keynes, Hastings etc then a few miles up the line to Corby isn't going to give them a nosebleed!

Because its pure fantasy that never been supported officially in any of the recent documents. Transferring Corby services is possible but nothing official.

...except that the Great Northern really won't need forty of them, however many peak extras you create, there'd still be a handful spare for London - Corby in my opinion.

The 700's don't actually replace that many services in peak with the following still required to be run by 365 with peak trains between Kings Cross to Peterborough, Welywn, Cambridge and Kings Lynn. And that's without the possibility of all Kings Lynn services going over to TSGN as stated in the TSGN ITT (that alone would require an extra 5 units per peak like for like).

Reading the ITT its clear that the current peak specials are to continue so its not just a simple case of replacing the current services with 700's as they cant be expected to all at the small stations between Hitchin and Cambridge unless you expect 12 cars to use 4 car platforms.

If some 365 don't go then some 377s have to go instead...

No one seems to have any knowledge as to which of the 2 will happen or is more likely in DfT hidden plan.

So where would transferring a fleet of part of a sub class of 377s make sense apart from more to SE?

No-one knows the current fleet plan at the DfT but its been stated that the 365 are to stay on the GN along with the 313s previously internally. Something the DfT stated was its intention not something the TOC came up with.

Transferring part of a fleet would happen any way with either the 365 or 377 so your point is a bit confusing.

 

[paul1609]

Corby won't get 365s. It'll need something capable of at least 110 (and possibly even need 125 now that speeds on the MML are being increased).

The original Thameslink plan was that Corby services would use souped up slow lines via Shirebrook serving additional stations at Irchester and Rushden parkway and a new development north of Bedford. Given that unemployment is apparently a problem in those areas and that they would be easily commutable to London its probably a better idea than staying part of MML

 

[anthony263]

Posted on a few forums tonight and in the new issue of Rail magazine is that Seimens have said they 1st class 700 emu (12 carriage unit) is due to go for testing later this year with the carriages completed but are not being fitted out. The 1st batch of class 700's to be delivered will be the 12 carriage units with the 8 carriage units following later

Also the unit has been painted in the new Thameslink livery.

Goes to show Seimens are working pretty quick I just hope there will not be any problems with th 1st units when they enter service.

 

[Class172]

Is there a revised date yet for when they will hopefully come into service?

 

[northwichcat]

Goes to show Seimens are working pretty quick I just hope there will not be any problems with th 1st units when they enter service.

Siemens did say the 350/3s and 350/4s couldn't be delivered quickly because of the amount of resource required for other orders they have.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there a revised date yet for when they will hopefully come into service?

Wasn't it expected to be the May 2015 timetable change that they would be introduced in passenger service?

 

[anthony263]

Originally it was may 2015 but recent delays I think have pushed that back slightly.

That said Seimens could have a few class 700's completed by then especially if the 1st is going to be fully completed and in for testing by the end of this year (2013)

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there a revised date yet for when they will hopefully come into service?

Early 2016, although hopefully a little earlier if testing goes well.

 

[Class377/5]

The comment over May 2015 refer to the first class 387 from Bombardier not the class 700 Siemens units

Timeline should be as follows

2015
May - first 387 in service
Nov - final 387 in service
Dec - first 700/1 arrives in UK

2016
Feb - first 700/1 in service
Apr - first 10x 700 in UK
May - first 700/0 in UK

2018
Jun - last 700/1 in UK
Aug - last 700/0 in UK

There is however make up time in Siemens delivery schedule and they are currently ahead of this.

 

[D365]

There is however make up time in Siemens delivery schedule and they are currently ahead of this.

Let's just hope Bombardier keep to their schedule

 

[Class377/5]

Let's just hope Bombardier keep to their schedule

You quoted me on Siemens yet meant Bombardier.

Bombardier being late is bad for Northern. Siemens being being late is bad full stop. However one is currently ahead and another not.

 

[D365]

You quoted me on Siemens yet meant Bombardier.

Bombardier being late is bad for Northern. Siemens being being late is bad full stop. However one is currently ahead and another not.

I assume you understand I was referring to the '387' batch - in before anyone else makes the joke

 

[WatcherZero]

Latest word is now three 350's have been finished and at least one will arrive at TPE in time for the timetable change but the ROSCO has put a delay on their entry into service because they want to test it works properly in multiple with 350/1 and 350/2's first, so it might be mid December before the first electric service operates they will however all be delivered and operational in time for the May timetable change.

 

[Class377/5]

I assume you understand I was referring to the '387' batch - in before anyone else makes the joke

Ah ok.

EDIT:

The new issue of Rail has some info on the Thames Valley services. This is a quote from the chairman of TravelWatch Southwest...

"I'm hearing that First will dig into its corporate pockets to help fund a fleet of new trains, provided there is a mechanism to provide them with enough time to make a return on that investment".

Mark Hopwood, FGW MD stated...

"We are in discussions with the DfT to secure the future of electric services in the Thames Valley. We are not at the stage yet where we are clear what rolling stock we will be operating. The two-year deal to run what we have now is in place. The next stage is to look at rolling stock."

The article also stated that FGW have told the DfT that the 319s are better capacity but are a step backwards traveling environment and are out of alignment with total route modernisation of the route with new long distance trains arriving soon.