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Electrification & Rolling Stock Cascade Impact Review

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HSTEd

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If these '387s' prove to be succesful it is possible that they will appear all over the place like mushrooms.

110mph units seem to be the in-vogue thing.
 
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anthony263

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Might be true as I am sure I read somewhere that at least one bidder for the new FGW franchise (before the dft pulled the plug after the west coast farce) were looking at ordering brand new rolling stock for the Thames Valley services.

The recent suggestion by Siemens that they can build a class 380 which could do 115-118mph and these units could fit between the IEP high speed services easily could perhaps in theory tempt some bidders for the GW franchise when the bidding is restarted in the future to look at this option.

First have experience with the existing class 380 fleet in Scotland and the class 360 fleet in East Anglia so may consider ordering from Siemens
 

JamesRowden

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Might be true as I am sure I read somewhere that at least one bidder for the new FGW franchise (before the dft pulled the plug after the west coast farce) were looking at ordering brand new rolling stock for the Thames Valley services.

The recent suggestion by Siemens that they can build a class 380 which could do 115-118mph and these units could fit between the IEP high speed services easily could perhaps in theory tempt some bidders for the GW franchise when the bidding is restarted in the future to look at this option.

First have experience with the existing class 380 fleet in Scotland and the class 360 fleet in East Anglia so may consider ordering from Siemens

Perhaps such an order will be part of the terms of the Great Western franchise extension to 2016.
 

Rhydgaled

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The recent suggestion by Siemens that they can build a class 380 which could do 115-118mph and these units could fit between the IEP high speed services easily could perhaps in theory tempt some bidders for the GW franchise when the bidding is restarted in the future to look at this option.
Could be. However, the Aug 2013 Modern Railways suggested that the GWML relief lines to Didcot may see linespeed upgrades, and that it could be that additional new 125mph EMUs are needed rather than cascaded class 319s. Maybe that just meant the Oxford fasts, which I think are currently worked by IC125s but don't seem to be mentioned as being worked by IEP in future.
 

Manchester77

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On a semi related note: the 387s have their own Wikipedia page now! It'll be a tad awkward if it was just a typo for 377/8s and someone's gone to the effort of making an actual page!

It's kinda thrown open a can of worms now. You have the Desiro city 110+ mph product! the 387s could be some rivalry when it comes to the contract for TPE/FGW.
 

D365

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The 387s have their own Wikipedia page now! It'll be a tad awkward if it was just a typo for 377/8s and someone's gone to the effort of making an actual page!

It's kinda thrown open a can of worms now. You have the Desiro city 110+ mph product! the 387s could be some rivalry when it comes to the contract for TPE/FGW.

May I just confirm, the only (known) differences between this new class Electrostar and 377/7 is a return to 4-car formation and 110mph top speed; correct? Still specced for 377 compatibility, if it ever was? I'm not even sure now. TSGN livery and all I suppose.

385 for a Desiro110 then? (As in 185, or 5 up from 380)
Or 384? (as in 444/344)
Or even 370? (as in 3x0?)
 

Kneedown

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The point i'm making is that a 4 coach 222 is efectivly a whole coach in terms of capacity behind a four coach train made up of 158's. Therefore it is unlikley that even by squeezing more seats it would get to within 40 seats of the existing number of seats, as such even with the benefits of extra luggage space (if t wasn't lost trying to get more seats in) it is unlikly that overall it would be seen as a good thing by many.

The thing is, the extra seats that have been added to the existing 158 fleet have led to very cramped conditions for the passengers. Far too many have been packed in. It looks good on paper and statistically, but the reality is it that it makes for an fairly uncomfortable journey unless you are quite small and travelling without bags. I challenge anyone to walk down the aisle without catching their clothing or banging their thighs. Hardly ideal, so a few less seats, with a little more breathing space, would be seen as a good thing i think, but i do think the 5 car 222's should be used, which brings us to........

It may well be that a 5 coach 22x would be better (as the trains should be allocated in such a way so as to be able to cope with some passenger growth in the 5-10 years after they arrive), but then there are the extra costs of running of the 22x's over the 158's. Personally, if there were extra 158's available, it could be better to run them as 5 coach trains.

Track access charges are indeed higher for a 222, i concede this. At equivalent throttle positions they also burn a lot more fuel, but the much higher power means they get up to speed quicker and the power is vastly reduced quite early on, whereas a 158 operates at full throttle for most of the journey, often without attaining linespeed, so the difference in overall fuel consumption may well not be as great as you would imagine. As i've said in other threads, i would be interested to learn, from someone who actually knows, the exact difference in fuel consumption between a 158 at full throttle and a 222 at low power.
The 158's are ageing. The newest one's will be 30 years old in 2022, and even now our own fleet have many problems and require a lot of maintenance and money spending on them. Performance still deteriorates though. Life extension has been mentioned, but it would be a vastly expensive, untested process with many new components required including engines (that must be made to fit) and is not by any means a given.
If you want to make 158's last a lot longer you need to withdraw them from intensive, high wear and tear work and transfer them to less demanding routes. Nottingham-Skegness for example. They're not built as well as HST's are and will be falling down left, right and centre if kept on current use for another 20 or so years.
 

clagmonster

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Windsor Branch
1 set (for shuttle)

Henley Branch
1 set (for shuttle)
2 sets (for once per peak journey to/from Paddington)

Marlow Branch
1 set (for shuttle)
2 sets (for once per peak journey to/from Paddington)

TOTAL: 56 sets (NOT INCLUDING SPARES) (some branch services might need to be shorter than 4-cars to fit in the platforms and the through services to Paddington will need to be lengthened at Twyford/Maidenhead [or maybe some stock could be saved by linking these services together at Maidenhead]),
Assuming they actually are displaced (we have had a couple of false alarms on this already), I fancy a fleet of say half a dozen 314s for the Thames branches, possibly allowing two for Marlow with one set operating Maidenhead-Bourne End and the other Bourne End-Marlow, just doubling the frequency albeit with a change of train for Marlow passengers. I believe this mode of operation has previously been used on the branch.

I suspect that through services from both Bourne End and Henley to Padd will not survive Crossrail opening. Indeed, given their restricted length I don't think that is neccesarily a bad thing, given paths are at a premium.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am not sure if there is going to be a through service between Bassingstoke and Heathrow Airport (This is the 1st time I have heard of such a service.) as well as the Newbury - Reading - London service, as far as I was aware there would be a 30 minutely Newbury - Reading shuttle with a Westbury/Bedwyn - London semi-fast service together with the London - Plymouth/Penzance services
I believe I saw mutterings of a Basingstoke-Reading-Heathrow-Padd express when the Heathrow western link was announced, the idea largely being that Basingstoke starters will be largely empty at Reading, thus acting as crowd busters for Reading to Padd. I'm not sure what the time penalty of going via Heathrow will be, however. I would imagine a good 10 minutes at least.

That said, 4 trains per hour of Reading-Heathrow-Padd fasts (most probably starting further west, say 2tph Basingstoke, 2tph Newbury/Bedwyn/Westbury), would provide a decent western service to Heathrow and dispense with HEx taking up paths into Padd, as well as allowing 332s to be cascaded up to West Yorkshire.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Event; Stalybridge to Leeds & Neville Hill to Colton Junction & Selby routes electrified.
Effect on TPX; Core Liverpool & Manchester to York & Newcastle services able to operated by EMUs with Middlesbrough (7 diagrams) and Hull (5 diagrams) remaining class 185 operated. Service/franchise changes expected with Scarborough services either moving to Northern with Blackpool-York services extended to Scarborough or Northern’s Blackpool-York absorbed into TPX. Under both options, TPX EMUs work an extra Manchester Airport-York, vice existing Scarborough. TPX also required to retain a further 12 class 185 diagrams; Manchester to Cleethorpes (7) and Barrow (3), giving a total of 22 diagrams to cover with around 30 units to allow for 6-car sets at peak times. Around 21x class 185s and 9 class 170s displaced.
Effect on Northern; Stopping services between Stalybridge to Leeds and York/Selby able to be operated by EMUs. Major restructuring of timetable, but 6 DMU diagrams able to replaced by EMUs. Possible cascade of around 21 class 185s & 9 class 170s to displace & cascade similar number of class 156s/158s on Scarborough/York-Blackpool, S&C, Copy Pit & Leeds-Nottingham/Sheffield fasts.
I suspect Middlesbrough will be cut back to an hourly shuttle from York, requiring a couple of DMUs. That said, I think that there is a good case for electrification to Middlesbrough, together with Darlington-Saltburn in CP6, in which case Middlesbrough could easily rejoin the TPE network, by simply re-extending the curtailed Airport-York service.

Operationally, I think Scarborough would be best served by a shuttle from York, using the nicely segregated bay there, thus eliminating conflicting moves and freeing up paths in the main ECML platforms. This would use 2 DMUs, though possibly not 185s, a 155 or similar would do the trick nicely.

I would probably curtail the Blackpool-Yorks at Leeds on electrification, gaining a couple of 158s for strenthening elsewhere. The York-Leeds stoppers (and Selby-Leeds, if it doesn't become part of the Hull/Selby-Manchester semi-fast), could easily run through to Doncaster or Huddersfield with an EMU, reducing the number of trains terminating at Leeds City from the west.

I reckon that when the Ordsall curve opens, all Manchester Airport services will come from platform 13 at Piccadilly (perhaps Ludo will gain, saving the time consuming tipping out of a unit at Picc), with Cleethorpes-Airport services being curtailed at Piccadilly. Thus Cleethorpes will only require 6 units.

Barrow could easily become a 156 shuttle from Lancaster, with the through electric paths to the Airport coming off the Windermere branch.

Thus I reckon the current TPE will have a daily requirement for 13-15 185s (5 Hull - strengthening probably not possible due to short platforms at places like Marsden, 6-8 Cleethorpes, with maybe a little strengthening in the Hope Valley, 2 Middlesbrough). Given the specially constructed Siemens depots, with presumably a maintenance contract, I can see them remaining in the area, potentially on Calder Valley and/or Copy pit services.
 
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The Ham

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I believe I saw mutterings of a Basingstoke-Reading-Heathrow-Padd express when the Heathrow western link was announced, the idea largely being that Basingstoke starters will be largely empty at Reading, thus acting as crowd busters for Reading to Padd. I'm not sure what the time penalty of going via Heathrow will be, however. I would imagine a good 10 minutes at least.

That said, 4 trains per hour of Reading-Heathrow-Padd fasts (most probably starting further west, say 2tph Basingstoke, 2tph Newbury/Bedwyn/Westbury), would provide a decent western service to Heathrow and dispense with HEx taking up paths into Padd, as well as allowing 332s to be cascaded up to West Yorkshire.

The current stoppers between Basingstoke and Reading take 25 minutes (assuming that these would be replaced by such a service) with a train Reading to Paddington calling at Slough taking 35 minutes (a total of 1 hour) therefore as long as the journey time from Basingstoke to Paddington via Heathrow wasn't much longer than this then it would be fairly attractive in terms of journey time from Basingstoke to London as the fastest SWT's service are 45 minutes. Although this may be 15-20 min longer there is a good chance that there would be a choice of seats from Basingstoke, so some people may still use them.

If however (upon relevent electrification) the service ran Salisbury to Paddington that may attact more passengers (south of Reading) to use it as the choice at Salisbury could well be to wait 15 min for the next SWT's service or get this one and both get to London at the same time (which then makes the choice down to where you are going next).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Of course the other advantage of extending to Salisbury is that it frees up platform space time at Basingstoke (assuming that it will be a long train which will not fit into platform 5).
 

starrymarkb

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On a semi related note: the 387s have their own Wikipedia page now! It'll be a tad awkward if it was just a typo for 377/8s and someone's gone to the effort of making an actual page!

It's kinda thrown open a can of worms now. You have the Desiro city 110+ mph product! the 387s could be some rivalry when it comes to the contract for TPE/FGW.

Why are they not in the 700 series if they have indeed been assigned a new class?
 

43074

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The 115mph Desiro Express units were described as a ''380 with extra oomph'', with a new generation traction package, according to Roger Ford in Modern Railways' October 2013 issue.

Why are they not in the 700 series if they have indeed been assigned a new class?

I suppose the 387s are based on existing 300 series units (the Electrostars), whereas the 700s are new generation?
 

59CosG95

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Speaking of SWT, if XR2 goes ahead, surely the suburban lines radiating out of Wimbledon will get wired, and the 455s/456s will probably need replacing. I guess they'll use some XR1 derivative , but what about the 455 routes not served by XR2? They'll be approaching 40 yrs old by the time XR2 construction probably begins (circa 2022). Maybe a Desiro City designed for dual voltage (in case of conversion) designed to run inner suburban services on the Windsor Lines?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On that bombshell, are the 458/5s dual voltage capable? I know the 458/0 has a pantograph well, but do the 460 units have one?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
370 has been used before.

New 110/115 mph Desiro Cities will probably get a number like 701 or 705 I reckon.

Yes, 370 was the name of BR's ill-fated AC-powered APT which got stuck in a tilt, and so they stuck with 86s and MkIIIs until the Pendo came along for electric services. North Wales Coast services used 125s.
 

D365

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370 has been used before.

New 110/115 mph Desiro Cities will probably get a number like 701 or 705 I reckon.

Yeah but 370 is redundant, we're not going to see APT on the move ever again...

If Desiro115 is truly a "380 with extra oomph", then it doesn't belong in NXEMU 7xx, does it :P

I was just trying to avoid the 700 range, it just doesn't seem properly thought out to me yet with Crossrail so far remaining at 345, and the situation with any further NXEMU undecided.


The 115mph Desiro Express units were described as a "380 with extra oomph", with a new generation traction package, according to Roger Ford in Modern Railways' October 2013 issue.

I suppose the 387s are based on existing 300 series units (the Electrostars), whereas the 700s are new generation?

Yes, that'll be it. It's 387 because 377 +10 (as in +10mph).


Maybe a Desiro City designed for dual voltage (in case of conversion) designed to run inner suburban services on the Windsor Lines?

NXEMU is designed for and capable of dual voltage, no matter Thameslink or Crossrail, Desiro City or Aventra, or indeed anything else...

On that bombshell, are the 458/5s dual voltage capable? I know the 458/0 has a pantograph well, but do the 460 units have one?[/QUOTE]

458/501-530 (converted from 458/0) should still be capable, I read. Albeit supposedly not as easy as Electrostar/Desiro. 458/531-536 (converted from remaining 460 carriages) weren't built in their original form as such, because it was expected they would remain on GX/BML... This consequence seems to have been carried over, unfortunately... Let's hope it won't be needed for them in the next 20-30 years.

Yes, 370 was the class of BR's ill-fated AC-powered APT which got stuck in a tilt, and so they stuck with 86s and MkIIIs until the Pendo came along for electric services. North Wales Coast services used 125s.

Not just 86+Mk3... ;)
 

northwichcat

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Operationally, I think Scarborough would be best served by a shuttle from York, using the nicely segregated bay there, thus eliminating conflicting moves and freeing up paths in the main ECML platforms. This would use 2 DMUs, though possibly not 185s, a 155 or similar would do the trick nicely.

The HLOS for CP6 shows it as a Scarborough-York-Blackpool service, which mirrors what Network Rail put in the Draft Electrification RUS.

I think the local council are also trying to ensure that Scarborough retains a regular direct Leeds service and doesn't suffer the same fate as Windermere has.
 

starrymarkb

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I was just trying to avoid the 700 range, it just doesn't seem properly thought out to me yet with Crossrail so far remaining at 345, and the situation with any further NXEMU undecided.

I thought all new classes ordered/designated after December 2011 were supposed to be in the new ranges...

Crossrail stock has been reserved class 345 since about 2008
 
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WatcherZero

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The 115mph Desiro Express units were described as a ''380 with extra oomph'', with a new generation traction package, according to Roger Ford in Modern Railways' October 2013 issue.

Though the 380 being a hybrid with bits from the old and next generation Desiro platforms, the traction being the most notable legacy component, it would be a fully next generation platform. However I believe the comparison is more abstract comparing form (streamlining) and function (high speed interurban, airport storage).
 

IanXC

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On the subject of Middlesborough and Scarborough its also worth remembering that the future East Coast franchise has a about 10 extra sets in the form of 5 car bimode IEP (and about 10 electric). I think there's a reasonable chance of seeing the current York terminators extended in alternate hours, which would balance nicely with a shuttle in the opposite hour.

If it wasn't for that meaning no service to Leeds and that both are looking for a movement from hourly to half hourly in the future.
 

swt_passenger

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I thought all new classes ordered/designated after December 2011 were supposed to be in the new ranges...

Certainly isn't implied by anything in the group standard. All the existing ranges are still available wherever there are suitable gaps.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Crossrailnews claims that the through services will continue.

So does Crossrail's own website, which is possibly more authoritative...

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/surface/western-section/
 
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158722

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Fairly substantial update of the original post just made - notes now include those regarding DMU and EMU cascades - which were in a seperate thread, but which seem to be all tied up together. Notes includes updates gleaned from the TSGN ITT released last week.
 

Class377/5

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On a semi related note: the 387s have their own Wikipedia page now! It'll be a tad awkward if it was just a typo for 377/8s and someone's gone to the effort of making an actual page!

It's kinda thrown open a can of worms now. You have the Desiro city 110+ mph product! the 387s could be some rivalry when it comes to the contract for TPE/FGW.

There no 115mph Desiro City. Its the Desiro Express. Both are based on the Next Generation Desiro platform.

It remains to be seen if the 387/377/8 are actually a next generation product and not an 379/377/7 dressed up to compete with the uprated 350/1 110mph running.
 

anthony263

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There no 115mph Desiro City. Its the Desiro Express. Both are based on the Next Generation Desiro platform.

It remains to be seen if the 387/377/8 are actually a next generation product and not an 379/377/7 dressed up to compete with the uprated 350/1 110mph running.

I am willing to bet the class 377/8 will be just a upgraded electrostar. As for the class 387's I would like to hope we get a surprise and it is something different to an electrostar or the original Desiro's
 

HSTEd

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I think the Cl377/8s ARE the Cl387s.

And I am not sure why it just being an uprated electrostar is really bad..... its a proven design.
If it ain't broken don't fix it.
 

jopsuk

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As far as I know, the 379 is a fairly heavily upgraded 377- as are the 377/6 and /7. With the 387 just being the same thing, but certified for 110mph operation?
 

158722

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As far as I know, the 379 is a fairly heavily upgraded 377- as are the 377/6 and /7. With the 387 just being the same thing, but certified for 110mph operation?

Agreed, it's as simple as that. Only surprise is that the 377/6 and 377/7 weren't built as 379/1 or 2s as seem to have much in common with the 379s, as a sort of second generation electrostar. Then again, easier to call them a 377 subclass for a variety if reasons...
 

Class377/5

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Agreed, it's as simple as that. Only surprise is that the 377/6 and 377/7 weren't built as 379/1 or 2s as seem to have much in common with the 379s, as a sort of second generation electrostar. Then again, easier to call them a 377 subclass for a variety if reasons...

As far as I know, the 379 is a fairly heavily upgraded 377- as are the 377/6 and /7. With the 387 just being the same thing, but certified for 110mph operation?

I think the Cl377/8s ARE the Cl387s.

And I am not sure why it just being an uprated electrostar is really bad..... its a proven design.
If it ain't broken don't fix it.

I am willing to bet the class 377/8 will be just a upgraded electrostar. As for the class 387's I would like to hope we get a surprise and it is something different to an electrostar or the original Desiro's

377/8 = 387. Expect the 387 to look like a 377 as they will have to interwork with them on Thameslink duties. They will be gangwayed stock too.

The 379 aren't true Electrostar but part Aventra with a new Aventra bodyshell (that happens to look fairly similar to the Electrostar range). Think of them as an Electrostar mkII. Note that the Networker mkII is the 375.

The Electrostar is a proven product yes but not the best in the generation hence why its felt to be bad. Ride on a 377/6 and you find out why people fear more of them as they are rather cheap and nasty. One example is on pervious 377s you can rest your elbow on the window ledge where as on a 377/6 the plastic actual bowed as its now hollow plastic rather than a solid piece.
 

swt_passenger

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I am willing to bet the class 377/8 will be just a upgraded electrostar. As for the class 387's I...

You seem to be the only one here who thinks they are different trains.

All the evidence is that 387 is the new class number for what was previosuly referred to as 377/8s; all the numbers (of vehicles/units) in the ITT point to that fairly obviously...
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You seem to be the only one here who thinks they are different trains.

All the evidence is that 387 is the new class number for what was previosuly referred to as 377/8s; all the numbers (of vehicles/units) in the ITT point to that fairly obviously...

The question really is whether they will need separate approval to run on the network (new electronics/traction package/bogies etc).
 
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