Chiltern Railways Class 168 Clubman trains

[The Planner]

Out of interest what is the headway along that section? I don't have the rules to hand but if I remember it's quite big for a commuter route?

9 minutes between Mantles Wood and Aylesbury. It is all 2 aspect with what looks like the sections being where the old boxes were at Wendover and Great Missenden.

 

[43074]

Out of interest, what routes do the 168s run generally? Are they usually on the full Birmingham run, or the shorter branches as well?

The 168s are focussed on Birmingham Mainline services and occasionally make it to Stratford. They do a few Met line turns as positioning between Aylesbury and Marylebone.

 

[trainplan1]

9 minutes between Mantles Wood and Aylesbury. It is all 2 aspect with what looks like the sections being where the old boxes were at Wendover and Great Missenden.

Cheers for that, thought it was something obscure.

 

[Eagle]

The 168s are focussed on Birmingham Mainline services and occasionally make it to Stratford. They do a few Met line turns as positioning between Aylesbury and Marylebone.

Come 2015/16 they'll also be doing all the Oxford services (with a few more loco diagrams going to Birmingham to free them).

 

[67018]

Out of interest, what routes do the 168s run generally? Are they usually on the full Birmingham run, or the shorter branches as well?

All the Birmingham trains are scheduled for 168s or loco hauled sets. The Banbury or Bicester terminators are a mixture of 168 and 165; the 168s can generally be identified on Open Train times/Realtime trains as 100mph Class 158 [sic] - except that a few of the 100mph workings are actually 172s.

As has already been posted, there are a few that make it to Aylesbury - for example the weekday 1628 Aylesbury-Marylebone.

AFAIK anything that terminates at or before High Wycombe from Marylebone is a 165 or 172.

 

[RPM]

I seem to remember that when the 165 stock was built for the Marylebone lines it had to have tripcocks fitted to work over the LU tracks. I would assume that any newer stock on the Chiltern lines has not had these fitted and so cannot be used on lines between Harrow & Amersham. The new signalling from LU may resolve this problem.

The 168s also have tripcocks, as does the class 117 water jetting unit. The 172s and the loco-hauled sets do not have them.
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AFAIK anything that terminates at or before High Wycombe from Marylebone is a 165 or 172.

There is at least one Gerrards Cross terminator that is booked for a 168.

 

[Class172]

The 172s and the loco-hauled sets do not have them.

Isn't the lack of Tripcock on the 172s down to them having the eco-flexx bogey or something??

 

[43074]

Isn't the lack of Tripcock on the 172s down to them having the eco-flexx bogey or something??

Yes, that's right, but I can't remember what it is about the bogey that prevents them from being fitted.

 

[D365]

Yes, that's right, but I can't remember what it is about the bogey that prevents them from being fitted.

FLEXX Eco bogie is an inside-frame design. Simply put, there is nowhere to fit a tripcock!

Just remembered that this is supposed to be the type which will be fitted to the future DB ICx train, replacing loco-hauled trains in Germany and subsequently ICE1/2 - which are younger than our IC225, albeit faster!

 

[Chris125]

I'd then turn the Harrow-Rickmansworth fast lines and Chesham/Amersham services entirely over to Chiltern, maybe adding platforms and stops at Wembley park to make changing to Met and Jubilee easy. This would let Aylesbury, Amersham and Chesham have entirely fast services to Marylebone (losing out on direct services to the City, yes) with future AC electrification rather simplified.

Surely if Marylebone had sufficient spare paths, which I don't believe it does, using them to improve inner/outer suburban services via Wembley would be much more useful. I really can't see the justification for the expense involved, especially as the Met continues to operate fast services during the peaks using a new fleet and soon new signalling.

I don't see anything particularly complicated about electrification - Dual Voltage EMU's can operate over the Met in the same way they do on the Bakerloo north of Queen's Park or south of Gunnersbury on the District for example, with the rest of the route wired up in the normal way.

Chris

 

[Eagle]

except that a few of the 100mph workings are actually 172s.

Not always though; 172s tend to share diagrams with 165s so it's not uncommon to see a 172 on a 75 mph path.

Stratford services are extensions of the Bicester/Banbury terminators so will similarly be a mix of 165s and 168s (and 172s every now and again). The Leamington to Birmingham shuttle is generally a 165.

 

[67018]

Not always though; 172s tend to share diagrams with 165s so it's not uncommon to see a 172 on a 75 mph path..

Yes indeed. So anyone who wants to bash the 172s has a real job on their hands finding them. The only way, short of camping out at Marylebone all day, is to find the first one (weekdays, 1H15 from High Wycombe) and trace it through the day.

 

[D365]

Yes indeed. So anyone who wants to bash the 172s has a real job on their hands finding them. The only way, short of camping out at Marylebone all day, is to find the first one (weekdays, 1H15 from High Wycombe) and trace it through the day.

Or... you just go for Goblin or Snow Hill Lines. Unless you're absolutely insisting like hell on Chiltern examples.

 

[Planman]

Hi Gents,

You may think the following comment is pretty wild (it is) but please bear with me .

What would it take to offer a 125 mph or 140 if possible service (appreciate that is not possible near London) using something like 12 car Javelins with a service pattern of about 8 an hour . Most services to be non stop except maybe 2 an hour at Amersham, all other stations on the line to close.

I appreciate you would need to build a new station, which could link up with the East West Line . Assume the budget is hundreds of millions and there is the will to do it.

What infrastructure and other improvements would be needed.

How much traffic could be diverted in Paddington eg current Aylesbury London via Prices Risborough.

Many thanks


The opinions expressed in this post and have nothing to do with my employer and are personal............etc etc

 

[Cherry_Picker]

What would it take?

At the risk of sounding flippant, a miracle. If your question is purely an academic one, then it would be as simple as putting an Amersham stop on HS2 but that ain't going to happen either. Every proposal is simply swapping one set of problems for another.



It's been talked to death on here, but that part of the world is a victim of circumstance. Maybe we will see 10-15 minutes cut off the journey time once ATO comes in on the Met in four or five years but nothing is guaranteed. If I were looking to move into the area and commute to London I still think MK or Bicester are much better options even if they are further from central London in terms of miles.

 

[Planman]

At first thought I would agree with you, however I would be grateful if you could indulge me as sadly I have only 3 years on the railway and I still believe in miracles.

seriously I would like to know I do have sensible suggestion , however a lot depends on what it would take to make this happen.


These comments are my own and have nothing to do with my employer and their potential plans........
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I do actually live in the area , near calvert.

I understand people's reluctance to think that anything can happen. However if you consider the following:

HS2 - there is a lot of politics, if you take that out , how do you get the maximum benefit .
I would suggest the following:

1. build the northern part first.
2. Simultaneously build HS2 from just north of Aylesbury Vale Parkway. to Birmingham
3. Build a new station just north of Aylesbury Vale Parkway
4. Prior to this upgrade the line from Aylesbury Vale Parkway to Marylebone for upto 140 mph speed
5. Close all of the intermediate stations (possible exception Marylebone
6. Upgrade the Aylesbury Princes Risborough line to operate stopping services.
7. Run Javelins down the line until HS2 is operational then run them down the line and abandon the southern part of HS2.
8 4 track the EAST west line from Bicester to Bletchley
9 Put the electric line between Bedford and Bletchley
10. Upgrade the Chiltern Wycombe line to electric and 4 track where possible

I know you were talking about problem but I am sure that the sort of things you are talking about could be fixed very easily with HS2 budget and political clout.

The advantage of doing this way are:

1. The whole route opens much quicker
2. It is far cheaper
3. It provides for a significant capacity increase meaning traffic can come off the West Coast Mainline and be routed elsewhere
4. It is far better for the environment
5. It provides high speed commuter route into London and west wards in an area which is poorly served

People are looking for realistic options, I think this is one

Any views are my own and not my employers

 

[Manchester77]

Without turning this into another HS2 thread I'd like to add that firstly the line from Aylesbury Vale to London is shared with the metropolitan line from Amersham and property of LUL. It would be cheaper and better to electrify the Chiltern main line in CP6/7 which would release DMUs, provide an electric diversionary route for the WCML and avoid having to remove the fast / semi fast met line services.

 

[NickBucks]

It would be cheaper to re-instate the Tring - Aylesbury line and extend the LM Tring stoppers to Aylesbury surely ? You could also run a line into the new Arla dairy thus reducing the number of tankers running through Aylesbury which must be one of the few towns left in the SE without a by-pass. It is still rural between Aylesbury & Tring- get in quick before new housing estates spring up !

 

[Carlisle]

I can remember BR saying when the class 165s were first introduced on the chiltern route that in time they would be converted to electric units ,I guess that was part of the crossrail proposals at that time as others have mentioned

 

[Mojo]

You could also run a line into the new Arla dairy thus reducing the number of tankers running through Aylesbury which must be one of the few towns left in the SE without a by-pass.

As a former resident of Aylesbury I could never understand what the purpose of a bypass that the local press wanted was! Where of any significance generates traffic flows that have to go through Aylesbury?

As to the other suggestion; I think there is quite a big problem of removing all intermediate stations between Moor Park; namely how the tens of thousands of daily commuters between this part of Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire are supposed to get to work!

 

[3141]

It would be cheaper to re-instate the Tring - Aylesbury line and extend the LM Tring stoppers to Aylesbury surely ? You could also run a line into the new Arla dairy thus reducing the number of tankers running through Aylesbury which must be one of the few towns left in the SE without a by-pass. It is still rural between Aylesbury & Tring- get in quick before new housing estates spring up !

There wasn't a Tring to Aylesbury line. There was a line to Aylesbury from Cheddington, about five miles north of Tring,with a trailing junction. The extra distance would prbably make this route take as long as Marylebone to Aylesbury now.

 

[aylesbury2]

It would - max length for DOO operation is 7 cars.



That would be my preferred solution too. Obviously resignalling would be required as well, especially between Amersham and Aylesbury where the sections are very long currently.

So is there a chance for more of these updated 168s to work their way to the Aylesbury line? I noticed you've picture it at the Old Stoke Road sidings in Aylesbury. Nicer trains would perhaps make up for how slow the line is. I'm thinking of going to Haddenham & Thame Parkway or Tring or drive then Overground from Amersham from now on as I'm fed up with how slow the Aylesbury via Amersham trains are!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The entire 168 fleet will be refurbished to look like that over the coming months, and there are a few 168 workings a day over the Met (or Aylesbury via Amersham if you prefer) but 100mph rolling stock isn't earning it's keep if it goes back and forth over a route which is 60-75mph all day.

 

[RPM]

If anything I think you'll see fewer 168s on the Amersham line in coming years. Currently most of the 168 workings over that line are positioning moves designed to get the units to and from Aylesbury depot for scheduled maintenance. Chiltern are in the process of planning a new maintenance depot at Banbury which will take over most of the class 168 exams so once that happens there will be fewer 168s working to Aylesbury.

 

[aylesbury]

Tuesday morning I noted two refurbed 168,s at Aylesbury depot one set has been there for a week and the other had arrived behind a silver skip that morning.

 

[aylesbury2]

I don't think we're going to see anything happen in Aylesbury until East-West Rail (which was recently delayed until 2019) or until Chiltern's franchise expires in 2021 - if it isn't renewed like LM's controversially was.
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There is also the option, of course, of getting the 280 bus (recently upgraded to 'Sapphire' standard) to Haddenham, which can work out no slower. But probably more expensive and with a chance of missing the connection.

Another option would be to take the 500 from Aylesbury, get off on the A4251 adjacent to Cow Lane and then it's a 20/25 minute walk to Tring from there.

There is also the option of getting a 55 early in the morning from Aylesbury which stops right outside Amersham for Oyster Card holders, although it would work out much slower obviously as you're going by road instead of rail from AYS-AMR.

Both would be far more feasible by car obviously! I prefer going from Tring nowadays and it works out cheaper and faster for me, as well as significantly cheaper and sheltered car parking compared to AYS.

 

[Nippy]

Really? 25-30 minute bus journey, 20-25 minute walk, at the very best a 35 minute train journey. That isn't quicker than the chiltern line, add the bus fare and you will be paying more. Add into the mix the generally worse infrastructure on the WCML with the wires coming down etc and it would be pretty pointless doing that. The chiltern 165s are pretty good really. As you say if you're going to be paying for parking at Aylesbury then you may as well drive to Tring but if you live in Aylesbury and can walk to the station you may as well do that.

 

[aylesbury2]

Really? 25-30 minute bus journey, 20-25 minute walk, at the very best a 35 minute train journey. That isn't quicker than the chiltern line, add the bus fare and you will be paying more. Add into the mix the generally worse infrastructure on the WCML with the wires coming down etc and it would be pretty pointless doing that. The chiltern 165s are pretty good really. As you say if you're going to be paying for parking at Aylesbury then you may as well drive to Tring but if you live in Aylesbury and can walk to the station you may as well do that.

Yes I did say it wasn't feasible, just discussing alternative options!

For those who live in Aylesbury, Chiltern is obviously the best bet, however I live equidistant from Aylesbury and Tring so that is why choose to go from Tring.

 

[Nippy]

I live in Tring and will often go to Princes Risborough for Marylebone just for difference!

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you live in somewhere like Aston Clinton or Wing and you drive to get to the station, then it's a no brainer to go from Tring. The trains are faster and there are more of them, and the car park is bigger. Train standards are about the same, I don't see much difference in comfort between the 165s and the 350/2s, and definitely not with the 321s.

If you're having to use public transport, the sensible choice would be Aylesbury, simply to avoid that two mile walk from Tring town centre.

I don't see what they could do to speed up the Aylesbury trains, the main issue is the number of stops the trains make in Buckinghamshire. Take out a Wendover stop and there'd be war on.

You used to be able to get joint-availability season tickets, valid at both Aylesbury and Haddenham, do Chiltern still do these?