Chiltern Railways Class 168 Clubman trains

[adamskiodp]

Hi folks

I've just seen that Chiltern Railways Class 168 Clubman trains have had a bit of a refurb. As a regular leisure traveller on the Aylesbury/Amersham line I feel that we are becoming a 'poor relation' to the Wycombe/Bicester line

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Aylesbury IMHO has a poor service in terms of journey times and comfort of rolling stock? When compared to other towns of a similar distance around London (e.g Reading, Stevenage, Luton, Chelmsford, Guildford etc. . .) Aylesbury seems to have been forgotten when it comes to railway investment.

Sorry for the ramble

Adam

 

[NSEFAN]

I would imagine the "black hole" (Amersham-Harrow on the Hill) has quite limited speeds, which keep the journey time to Marylebone quite high. The mainline via Wycombe has recently been sped up for the fast Birmingham services; the new layout at South Ruislip is a lot better than the old arrangement.

I've never found the class 165s to be bad. In fact, Chiltern's refurbishment of them is excellent in my opinion, much better than those under FGW. Granted the 168s are better, but the Wycombe/Bicester line has more intercity-style traffic which warrants 2+2 seating, whereas Aylesbury will always be a commuter route (unless we somehow see the return of the GCR!)

Perhaps when East-West rail opens, we will see services heading north of Aylesbury Vale Parkway towards Bletchley and beyond, which could mean more spacious seating on the trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's also a 165/166 overhaul been announced, being organised by the owning Rosco. Applicable to the entire FGW and Chiltern fleets, it has presumably been caught up in the problems with the Railcare takeover:

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/02/06/railcare-wins-20m-class-165-and-166-overhaul-contract/

 

[NSE]

It's not really comparable to those stations to be honest. Aylesbury is a commuter branch line. Stevenage and Luton maybe similar distances, but both are located on busy lines that stretch miles up the country, and thus can have intercity rolling city stock serving them. Guildford and Reading are similar, but also junctions as well, so there is different operators and a mix of stock present. The all stations service from Reading to London is the same stock is it not?, and I'd say the 455's on the all stations from Guildford are of similar comfort. I don't know journey times without looking, but the really quick ones from these stations to London are intercity ones from further afield. Therefore it won't change as right now there is no 'further afield' from Aylesbury.

 

[Bringback309s]

Quite smart I reckon... better than anything that serves Chelmsford!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/764374...2kf-fNLvee-fP4bM7-fNLztK-fNLBeX-fNLF14-aVtdPR

http://www.flickr.com/photos/764374...aRj-fP46G9-fP458w-dZw8kp-b3KvTT-fNM4op-bQ9MJe

 

[RPM]

I have often heard commuters on the Aylesbury-Amersham-Marylebone line complain that they get the inferior rolling stock compared to commuters on the High Wycombe line. In fact this is completely spurious. On the Wycombe line the vast majority of comparable commuter workings use the same class 165s or 172s (which have the same sort of basic commuter interiors). The 168s and mark 3s are generally used on longer distance services. You could argue that High Wycombe gets some of these 168 workings stopping there, but they are generally packed to the rafters by this stage - hardly the sort of luxury travel to be jealous about.

However, in terms of journey time and investment, the Amersham line is indeed something of a poor relation and this stems entirely from the fact that Chiltern services have to run over LUL metals (on LUL's terms) for a substantial part of the route. It is an unfortunate accident of history. However there are some improvements in the pipeline that will follow LUL's forthcoming Met Line resignalling.

Of course if Crossrail had gone ahead to it's original plan then Aylesbury would have had a far superior service.:roll:

 

[Eagle]

Perhaps when East-West rail opens, we will see services heading north of Aylesbury Vale Parkway towards Bletchley and beyond, which could mean more spacious seating on the trains.

Alas no, EWR won't do anything for the line via Amersham*. The trains that will head north of Aylesbury are all going via Princes Risborough.

*other than the possibility of via Amersham trains terminating at Aylesbury and not continuing to the Parkway.

 

[TDK]

Hi folks

I've just seen that Chiltern Railways Class 168 Clubman trains have had a bit of a refurb. As a regular leisure traveller on the Aylesbury/Amersham line I feel that we are becoming a 'poor relation' to the Wycombe/Bicester line

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Aylesbury IMHO has a poor service in terms of journey times and comfort of rolling stock? When compared to other towns of a similar distance around London (e.g Reading, Stevenage, Luton, Chelmsford, Guildford etc. . .) Aylesbury seems to have been forgotten when it comes to railway investment.

Sorry for the ramble

Adam

I do not think that here is much in the timings difference wise to Aylesbury via Amersham and Aylesbury via Princes Risborough

 

[Aldaniti]

Quite smart I reckon... better than anything that serves Chelmsford!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/764374...2kf-fNLvee-fP4bM7-fNLztK-fNLBeX-fNLF14-aVtdPR

http://www.flickr.com/photos/764374...aRj-fP46G9-fP458w-dZw8kp-b3KvTT-fNM4op-bQ9MJe

I think that's the smartest looking DMU I've seen in the UK. The seats even look comfortable!

 

[adamskiodp]

Thanks for all your thoughts.

I guess things might improve with EWR in a few years

I guess I should blame Dr Beeching for Aylesbury being a dead end branch line

Did the Met line slow the express trains down before Beeching shut the GCR? I understand that Aylesbury was one of the 1st stops from London on the way to Nottingham, Sheffield and Manchester.

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it might be possible in theory to have fast trains from Aylesbury via Wycombe with only 3 or 4 stops? Haddenham & Thame Parkway is only 40 minutes from Marylebone on some trains and is further away.

Regards,

Adam

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think the mainline GCR services used the Met route much after 1906.

Surely that was the whole point of building and using the Ashendon Jn to Grendon Underwood cut off line?

Someone's bound to know more than me, and/or might even have an old timetable, but I doubt there was a regular express service through Aylesbury in living memory...

 

[The Planner]

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it might be possible in theory to have fast trains from Aylesbury via Wycombe with only 3 or 4 stops? Haddenham & Thame Parkway is only 40 minutes from Marylebone on some trains and is further away.

You'll need to do something with the Risborough - Aylesbury branch first, that is what kills it at the minute. I doubt you can do an awful lot at either end to get the speeds higher though.

 

[Metrailway]

I don't think the mainline GCR services used the Met route much after 1906.

Surely that was the whole point of building and using the Ashendon Jn to Grendon Underwood cut off line?

Someone's bound to know more than me, and/or might even have an old timetable, but I doubt there was a regular express service through Aylesbury in living memory...

Nope, most of the GCR (and it successors) expresses still used the Met&GC Joint line as it is shorter in terms of route mileage and was still the quickest route despite the unfavourable gradients, curves, and heavy traffic. Many expresses stopped at Aylesbury. This continued till the end of express services in 1960.

 

[NickBucks]

I am a daily traveller on this route. As has been previously said there is little that can be done to improve things. Chiltern is dependant upon LUL and it appears that the delay to the resignalling is delaying further an improvement in line speed. Chiltern is not helping themselves however. Many of the stations are now unmanned apart from at the morning peak. The security guard at Stoke Mandeville now no longer works at the quietest time of day (mid afternoon ) when vehicles could be broken into or vandalised). This despite promises from management that exorbitant increases in car parking charges would be used to cover additional security.The station building has recently been vandalised leading to expensive repairs / replacement of the doors to the waiting room and the booking office. It does not give the impression of a viable go ahead railway.
I do wonder about Chilterns long term interest in this line. Given the unsurmountable problems with LUL it may be that they will concentrate future investment on the Marylebone-Wycombe- Birmingham line which has great potential given the WCML capacity constraints. Although Aylesbury is marked for substantial housing development in the years to come whether the new residents will be London bound commuters is open to debate. Given the house prices in Oxford and the close proximity (22 miles) Aylesbury could become a commuter town to Oxford using the E/W line.
Of course given LUL's pending funding shortfall they could terminate the MET lines at Rickmansworth passing the line beyond to Chiltern which would be of some benefit. Trouble is the new 'S' Met stock is probably quicker than the 165's and there would still be a service requirement to service Chorleywood, Chalfont & Amersham.

One viable option would be to upgrade the single line from Aylesbury to Princes Risborough. There should be no insurmountable infrastructure issues with this- a few bridges none of which involve main roads and one half barrier crossing. All Aylesbury/ Aylesbury VP trains could then use the Wycome line.

On the odd Sunday when I need to work I now travel to Tring and pick up LM. Car parking, even on a Sunday is cheaper and the £6.00 addition to my Gold Card is more than made up for by the classy 350 rolling stock and shorter journey time.

Some 20 years after Chiltern rose like the phoenix I fear for the future. Electrification will not come to the aid of this route. I fear that it may buck the current trend and be heading for decline.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

One viable option would be to upgrade the single line from Aylesbury to Princes Risborough. There should be no insurmountable infrastructure issues with this- a few bridges none of which involve main roads and one half barrier crossing. All Aylesbury/ Aylesbury VP trains could then use the Wycome line.

The problem is there are some 30-40 foot crossings on the line and locals could place so many objections to closing each one (which will be needed for a line speed increase) that it becomes just not worth the effort for what little gain it will provide. Chiltern will probably be less likely to push it through given all the hassle which came with a similar project between Oxford and Bicester.

I really feel for Aylesbury's situation. It is a large town which is highly important to its region and in prime commuter land but it's served so poorly by the road and rail networks. If I were looking to move into the area while retaining a career in London it would be one of the last places I'd chose to live given it's poor transport links compared to nearby towns. Bicester is a much more attractive option even though it is 15 miles further from Westminster it has a faster and more frequent train service to London, it's actually possible to go north and with the M40 so close road journey times are almost identical too.

 

[Eagle]

One viable option would be to upgrade the single line from Aylesbury to Princes Risborough. There should be no insurmountable infrastructure issues with this- a few bridges none of which involve main roads and one half barrier crossing. All Aylesbury/ Aylesbury VP trains could then use the Wycome line.

It is actually the plan once EWR opens for trains to run Marylebone > Princes Risborough > Aylesbury > Vale Parkway > Winslow > Milton Keynes (with the Met line trains terminating at Aylesbury). I can't recall how much of an upgrade is required for the Risborough to Aylesbury line though.

 

[jopsuk]

The 168s could perhaps have done with being all built as 4-car (though I'm not sure if this would limit two-unit operation?).

To improve Aylesbury, I'd advocate four-tracking Watford Triangle-Rickmansworth. I'd then turn the Harrow-Rickmansworth fast lines and Chesham/Amersham services entirely over to Chiltern, maybe adding platforms and stops at Wembley park to make changing to Met and Jubilee easy. This would let Aylesbury, Amersham and Chesham have entirely fast services to Marylebone (losing out on direct services to the City, yes) with future AC electrification rather simplified.

 

[RPM]

The 168s could perhaps have done with being all built as 4-car (though I'm not sure if this would limit two-unit operation?).

It would - max length for DOO operation is 7 cars.

To improve Aylesbury, I'd advocate four-tracking Watford Triangle-Rickmansworth. I'd then turn the Harrow-Rickmansworth fast lines and Chesham/Amersham services entirely over to Chiltern, maybe adding platforms and stops at Wembley park to make changing to Met and Jubilee easy. This would let Aylesbury, Amersham and Chesham have entirely fast services to Marylebone (losing out on direct services to the City, yes) with future AC electrification rather simplified.

That would be my preferred solution too. Obviously resignalling would be required as well, especially between Amersham and Aylesbury where the sections are very long currently.

 

[jopsuk]

It would - max length for DOO operation is 7 cars.

Is this a specific infrastructure issue, or a local restriction possibly that's been negotiated with the relevant unions? Obviously elsewhere there's 12 car DOO EMUs, so it certainly isn't a national rule...

 

[HSTEd]

Is there any reason beyond political wrangling not to simply extend the Metropolitan line to Aylesbury and then run Aylesbury services only via High Wycombe?

It avoids this whole mess.
I imagine you could do something with the extra pair of lines next to the current Met alignment.

 

[RPM]

Is this a specific infrastructure issue, or a local restriction possibly that's been negotiated with the relevant unions? Obviously elsewhere there's 12 car DOO EMUs, so it certainly isn't a national rule...

As far as I am aware it is an agreement between the company and ASLEF.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there any reason beyond political wrangling not to simply extend the Metropolitan line to Aylesbury and then run Aylesbury services only via High Wycombe?

It avoids this whole mess.
I imagine you could do something with the extra pair of lines next to the current Met alignment.

It would be very, very slow (and therefore unattractive). Not to mention that the AYS-PRR branch is too much of a bottleneck to cope with all Aylesbury's traffic anyway.
LUL have no interest in running fast commuter services, they are very much in the metro mindset, irrespective of how inappropriate this is to large tracts of Buckinghamshire.

 

[causton]

It would be very, very slow (and therefore unattractive). Not to mention that the AYS-PRR branch is too much of a bottleneck to cope with all Aylesbury's traffic anyway.
LUL have no interest in running fast commuter services, they are very much in the metro mindset, irrespective of how inappropriate this is to large tracts of Buckinghamshire.

Indeed. If anything LUL may move southwards and terminate at Rickmansworth or somewhere, I doubt they have any desire to move further out of London and I doubt more residents of Bucks want to be home to the slow Met line services all the way into London!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've never understood the complaints about the rolling stock to Aylesbury.

The only difference between the 165s Chiltern Railways use to Aylesbury and the 365s FCC use all the way to Peterborough, Cambridge and Kings Lynn is the fact that the former is diesel. Oh, and that Chiltern retro-fitted air conditioning to their trains, at their own expense.

The time it takes to get to London from Aylesbury is an issue, but that's largely down to the sheer number of stops the Aylesbury trains make. There are peak time trains which are first stop Great Missenden which do the journey in 45 minutes, but I don't see how any of the stops in Buckinghamshire could be withdrawn without Chiltern getting serious complaints. Line speed on LUL could be improved but I'm not sure how much time that would save between Chalfont and Harrow on the Hill, especially with four Met Line trains an hour through that section.

The Clubmans are designed as intercity trains, with many of them being first stop Bicester out of Marylebone. They're different trains, although they do appear on the Aylesbury line too, especially at weekends.

 

[67018]

It might be a case of 'be careful what you wish for'. It might 'only' be 165s, but anyone coming from Aylesbury will have an empty train to get on in the morning and one that progressively clears out in the evening. Haddenham and Bicester get nicer, faster trains but there's a risk of having to stand the whole way in the peaks.

There is also the option, of course, of getting the 280 bus (recently upgraded to 'Sapphire' standard) to Haddenham, which can work out no slower. But probably more expensive and with a chance of missing the connection.

The Clubmans are designed as intercity trains, with many of them being first stop Bicester out of Marylebone.

A lot of them - including 50% of the off peak service - run even further, first stop Banbury.

 

[Eagle]

Try travelling London to Stratford (a two hour journey) on a 165, then you'll appreciate how London to Aylesbury isn't that long.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Try travelling London to Stratford (a two hour journey) on a 165, then you'll appreciate how London to Aylesbury isn't that long.

I did Snow Hill to Marylebone for work purposes on a 165 back in May 2000 IIRC. Preferred it to the alternative of a 321 to Euston!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Try travelling London to Stratford (a two hour journey) on a 165, then you'll appreciate how London to Aylesbury isn't that long.

The Stratford's usually follow the XX:15 Birmingham train from Marylebone. If you are in London in time for the Stratford train then chances are you are in time for the Birmingham train too. It's more comfortable to jump on that as far as Leamington Spa and wait for the 165 to Stratford there.

 

[Buttsy]

I seem to remember that when the 165 stock was built for the Marylebone lines it had to have tripcocks fitted to work over the LU tracks. I would assume that any newer stock on the Chiltern lines has not had these fitted and so cannot be used on lines between Harrow & Amersham. The new signalling from LU may resolve this problem.

 

[trainplan1]

It would - max length for DOO operation is 7 cars.



That would be my preferred solution too. Obviously resignalling would be required as well, especially between Amersham and Aylesbury where the sections are very long currently.

Out of interest what is the headway along that section? I don't have the rules to hand but if I remember it's quite big for a commuter route?

I certainly would like that too, (mentioned on the local line thread).
If West Hampstead never happens then platforms at Wembley could be worthwhile.

 

[Oswyntail]

Out of interest, what routes do the 168s run generally? Are they usually on the full Birmingham run, or the shorter branches as well?