Flexible Fares Trial

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like the DfT Fares Review report is going to be published "soon".
Meanwhile, they have a little taster for us in this trial next year, which appears to be about new "shoulder-peak fares".
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-invest-in-flexible-ticketing-trial

by DfT
The DfT will finalise the exact details of how the trial will run with the successful bidder, but this could include discounted tickets for those travelling in the slightly quieter periods at either end of the rush hour called the “shoulder peak”, and the introduction of flexible season tickets to benefit those who work part-time

I can't help feeling this points to more complication, not less.

by DfT
The DfT has been looking at a range of options to modernise fares as part of its fares and ticketing Review. The report is due to be published shortly

 

[Haywain]

Looks like the DfT Fares Review report is going to be published "soon".
Meanwhile, they have a little taster for us in this trial next year, which appears to be about new "shoulder-peak fares".
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-invest-in-flexible-ticketing-trial



I can't help feeling this points to more complication, not less.

Yep. And it's always worth bearing in mind that if someone ends up paying less, then somebody else needs to end up paying more.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yep. And it's always worth bearing in mind that if someone ends up paying less, then somebody else needs to end up paying more.

I don't believe that is necessarily true. If TOCs are able to push demand from overcrowded services to those with spare capacity, the benefit of reducing the need for extremely expensive additional rolling stock/platform lengthening/station enhancements would/should outweigh the drawback of the slight loss in revenue. In addition, by promoting quieter and more comfortable services, TOCs might even be able to attract new passengers, raising overall revenue.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I am also unsure how this will work and it will be interesting to see. Certainly on my route there appears to be noticeably fewer people travelling to London in the morning peak on a Friday than the peak on Mon-Thurs and therefore offering them a reduction in fare would seem likely to just reduce income to the ToC.

The shoulder fares might attract some people off the peak hour services although i am not convinced, and in any event even if they do they are reducing ToC income.

The additional fares though are merely likely to add more confusion to those who do not travel regularly.

Whilst I can see that those travelling 4 days a week might consider it unfair they pay the same fare as those travelling 5, 6 or 7 days a week, they should be grateful as they are spending less time on the trains!

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's worth noting that First Great Western already offer "part-time" season tickets on certain flows. They're valid for three days a week plus weekends, and implemented via pseudo-routes of "DD DD DD &WKND" (00140 - 00149).

As an example, Exeter St Davids - Exeter Central is normally £5.30 a week, but a "part-time" season has a base rate of £3.20 a week.

 

[Haywain]

It's worth noting that First Great Western already offer "part-time" season tickets on certain flows. They're valid for three days a week plus weekends, and implemented via pseudo-routes of "DD DD DD &WKND" (00140 - 00149).

As an example, Exeter St Davids - Exeter Central is normally £5.30 a week, but a "part-time" season has a base rate of £3.20 a week.

If you buy an annual season of this type does it qualify for a Gold Card (obviously only if bought at a Network Card area station)?

 

[jb]

If you buy an annual season of this type does it qualify for a Gold Card (obviously only if bought at a Network Card area station)?

Hehehe, looking for a 1-day a week annual season between Ryde Esplanade and St Johns Road, costing 50p but getting you a Gold Card, then?

 

[maniacmartin]

If you buy an annual season of this type does it qualify for a Gold Card (obviously only if bought at a Network Card area station)?

No. In a previous thread, it was mentioned that there are instructions that they should not be issued on Gold card stock. A few other discount seasons also don't qualify. I believe discounted Annual Travelcards on 18+ Oyster cards are another example that would not get a Gold (Record) card

 

[Be3G]

I believe discounted Annual Travelcards on 18+ Oyster cards are another example that would not get a Gold (Record) card

Correct – unless the rules have changed since I used to have an 18+ Oyster.

 

[cuccir]

Flexible season tickets would be a particularly welcome innovation.

I'm unclear whether the 'shoulder peak' tickets would be part of this, or a new ticket type. I'd be less keen on these - it moves us closer to a 'every train priced differently' scenario which, while offering savings to savvy and flexible customer, is likely to be less useful and popular as a whole.

 

[tbtc]

I can't help feeling this points to more complication, not less

Agreed - the usual "we want more choice but we also want simpler fares" debate.

 

[telstarbox]

I know this won't make me popular on here but I think the 'simplified' ATOC fares are easy for the travelling public to understand, as set out in the "National Rail Guide to Tickets" leaflet.

This states that there are four main ticket types: Anytime, Off-Peak, Advance and Season tickets. The definitions for Anytime and Advance are fairly concise. For Off-Peak:

Off-Peak tickets are cheaper than Anytime tickets and are valid on trains that are less busy. You may need to travel at specific times of the day, days of the week and sometimes on specific routes or operators.
On some journeys, there are cheaper tickets called Super Off-Peak; these are valid on the least busy services.

The Guide therefore highlights that Off-Peak is not a blanket time restriction but varies according to the ticket, and that Super Off-Peak can be considered a more restrictive type of Off-Peak.

Rather than complicating matters with the "shoulder peak", it would be better to change Off-Peak tickets to include the shoulder peak, and use Super Off-Peak for the more restrictive but cheaper tickets. This would be consistent with flows where both Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets are already available.

Having more than three types (Anytime, Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak) would be too complicated IMO - if TOCs want more control over how busy their trains are, they should refine their yield management (ie Advances) to regulate/stimulate demand on particular trains.

 

[jb]

I know this won't make me popular on here but I think the 'simplified' ATOC fares are easy for the travelling public to understand, as set out in the "National Rail Guide to Tickets" leaflet.

The fare types are generally easy to understand... but it's often not the fares that matter in practice. It's the restriction codes (of which there are dozens or hundreds, and which are impenetrable to public and most staff alike). I'm not claiming to know the answer, and it may be that what we currently have is something like the least worst option.

Having more than three types (Anytime, Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak) would be too complicated IMO

Agree with that... I think...

if TOCs want more control over how busy their trains are, they should refine their yield management (ie Advances) to regulate/stimulate demand on particular trains.

Advances are not the only yield management instrument, and would be a blunt one in many situations where other instruments (restriction codes) are currently deployed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Shoulder-peak? So basically saver and super-saver? Those tickets that were too complex for people to understand four or five years back? How times change!

Can't help but feel the first/last one or two 'off-peak' trains would become 'shoulder-peak' along with a few of the less busy 'peak' services.

 

[swt_passenger]

As an example, Exeter St Davids - Exeter Central is normally £5.30 a week, but a "part-time" season has a base rate of £3.20 a week.

That compares to an Anytime return at £1.10. So the major benefit of both, other than convenience, is really the 'free' weekend travel. Does your example 3 day season ticket have its validity days printed on it by the way, or is there a separate record card?

 

[greatkingrat]

That compares to an Anytime return at £1.10. So the major benefit of both, other than convenience, is really the 'free' weekend travel. Does your example 3 day season ticket have its validity days printed on it by the way, or is there a separate record card?

The Route field on the ticket says something like "MO TU WE &WKND".

 

[swt_passenger]

The Route field on the ticket says something like "MO TU WE &WKND".

Ah yes, I see what all those DDs in post#5 meant now...

Must have decoded DD as something else accidentally...

 

[IanXC]

That compares to an Anytime return at £1.10. So the major benefit of both, other than convenience, is really the 'free' weekend travel. Does your example 3 day season ticket have its validity days printed on it by the way, or is there a separate record card?

I think the pricing is a little more advantageous for other station pairs than those 2.

The validity is shown in the route field on the ticket, as in "Route: MO TU WE &WKND".

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought the Government had done a u-turn and already decided that Shoulder Peak tickets wernt the answer, guess someone forgot to cancel the trial, theres a few more trials involved in this package so It could be they couldnt disentagle one particular element.

Competion for the money for a toc running commuter services into London to trial Shoulder Peak tickets and part time season tickets (i.e. 3 of 5 days a week, possibly some form of digital clipper card).
Competition for a long distance operator to trial capping single fares at half the return fare price and then in future if sucessful all regulated fares rises would be for singles rather than returns.

 

[jon0844]

Flexible season tickets might actually help encourage more people to work from home, so I think it's a good thing and a long time coming (assuming the trial is successful).

 

[tbtc]

Flexible season tickets might actually help encourage more people to work from home, so I think it's a good thing and a long time coming (assuming the trial is successful).

One problem with "flexible season tickets" is that Friday is probably the most common day for people to have off - it's already a quiet morning on the railways - so we'll see a reduction in railway revenue and even more spare capacity.

Yet the railway will need to have sufficient trains/ seats/ paths to cope with the busiest midweek days - its probably in the railway's interests to have a stable demand each day (instead of giving people incentive not to pay for a quieter day).

 

[jon0844]

Well, ideally, TOCs would get an idea of how many people might travel by having a database of the tickets sold.

You're right that some people might choose to work from home on a Friday or Monday, but that shouldn't really be the case as you're supposed to be working - not using it as a way of having a long weekend!!

One of the key reasons home working hasn't taken off, and probably never will in the way that some hope (thus HS2 is still needed!) is because of employers mistrusting staff - and usually with good reason.

Having loads of new ticket types is probably not the way to go, at least until we have smartcards that can work a lot of combinations out automatically, but a flexible season ticket that is clearly marked with the days that it is valid would be dead easy. It would in effect be advertised and marketed in the same way as a normal season ticket, but adjusted for just some days instead of all.

But what about people who might work at home (or another location, so might have another flexible season for that location) on different days?

Again, something that smartcards could solve - and perhaps this trial is already too late because it will be solved in another way in due course.

 

[WatcherZero]

One problem with "flexible season tickets" is that Friday is probably the most common day for people to have off - it's already a quiet morning on the railways - so we'll see a reduction in railway revenue and even more spare capacity.

Yet the railway will need to have sufficient trains/ seats/ paths to cope with the busiest midweek days - its probably in the railway's interests to have a stable demand each day (instead of giving people incentive not to pay for a quieter day).

Depends where you are, on this side of the Pennines Friday is one of the busiest days with people returning home from London for the weekend or going up to the lake district or Scotland on weekend breaks, its why TPE will make all Friday and Sunday services double 350's and double 185's.

 

[sarahj]

Going from Brighton to London we have three classes of ticket:

Peak. Last train up to vic 08.45
Off Peak. Anytime after that
Super off peak: 10.19 onwards. (not 16.15-19.15 back)

So you see three sets of busy trains. The first Super off peak trains are always packed to the gills. 12 cars of screaming kids.

The ones I feel a bit sorry for, are the ones on the very early trains 03.50 - 05.30/06.00, or along the coastal routes at these times. Trains are much quieter, but fares are still high. You could drop these fares a tad and perhaps increase those on the trains going from around 07.00 onwards. But of course the coastal routes peak times end earlier. 09.00 on most.

The problem is, is that seasons come with a discount anyway. If your traveling more than 3 times a week in the peaks, its worth buying a season/weekly. So, you could say they are discounting a discounted ticket.


Remember a few years ago when the plan was to make tickets more simple. The problem with the part time tickets, is what happens when the punter needs to travel on what is normaly a day off. will they have to pay full fare?
I can see the arguments coming.

 

[jon0844]

All why I believe that a combination of smartcard ticketing, and perhaps validators on platforms or trains (to show what route you took and/or what train you used - was a it Intercity, semi-fast surburban, metro-all station etc) can solve a lot of this.

You can then introduce caps, automatic discounts for regular usage (and I'd say the card would have a photo of the owner on it to stop someone using it as a pooled ticket - unless you want to offer that as a perk) and reward the most regular users in other ways. You might still have a simple season ticket, but a lot of people could potentially move towards something more like PAYG.

 

[tbtc]

Well, ideally, TOCs would get an idea of how many people might travel by having a database of the tickets sold.

You're right that some people might choose to work from home on a Friday or Monday, but that shouldn't really be the case as you're supposed to be working - not using it as a way of having a long weekend!!

One of the key reasons home working hasn't taken off, and probably never will in the way that some hope (thus HS2 is still needed!) is because of employers mistrusting staff - and usually with good reason.

Having loads of new ticket types is probably not the way to go, at least until we have smartcards that can work a lot of combinations out automatically, but a flexible season ticket that is clearly marked with the days that it is valid would be dead easy. It would in effect be advertised and marketed in the same way as a normal season ticket, but adjusted for just some days instead of all.

But what about people who might work at home (or another location, so might have another flexible season for that location) on different days?

Again, something that smartcards could solve - and perhaps this trial is already too late because it will be solved in another way in due course.

I probably didn't explain myself - I'm not talking about people working from home on Fridays, but about part timer employees who aren't working (and therefore aren't commuting) on a Friday.

Since Friday seems to be the most common day to have off, for part time workers, there's a danger that the railways will see a lot of empty seats on a Friday morning, yet inflexible rolling stock means that they have to provide the same number on seats on a Friday as they do midweek.

Depends where you are, on this side of the Pennines Friday is one of the busiest days with people returning home from London for the weekend or going up to the lake district or Scotland on weekend breaks, its why TPE will make all Friday and Sunday services double 350's and double 185's.

Friday afternoon can be very busy on this side (due to leisure passengers), but the Friday morning commute is noticeably quieter on some services.

 

[anme]

Flexible season tickets might actually help encourage more people to work from home, so I think it's a good thing and a long time coming (assuming the trial is successful).

Fully agree. There would be lots of benefits from a greater level of home working (environmental, reduced transport investment, reduced overcrowding, improved quality of life, etc).

BUT... however beneficial to society, this is *not* in the rail industry's interest. It will result in fewer journeys being made, especially of the most profitable passangers - commuters. Changes such as flexible season tickets, although a very good thing, are likely to reduce rail company's incomes. They will probably require changes to franchise agreements and maybe a higher level of subsidy in the future. Therefore, they will take a long time to introduce and in the short term may cost the taxpayer and "full time" commuters more money.

Unfortunately, money usually wins over quality of life in such decisions, so I fear the idea will quietly be dropped at some point.

[I can imagine the situation will be different between journeys where rail is the only viable option (e.g. London commuting) and where rail has only a small market share (e.g. possibly the Exeter example elsewhere in this thread). In the cases where rail is dominant, there will probably be a negative effect on rail income. Elsewhere, it might even increase income by attracting extra passengers - it becomes more difficult to justify owning a car for two days of commuting than for five, and one might be able to live with a less convenient journey.]

 

[jon0844]

TfL certainly don't want to discourage people from using public transport and made it quite clear at an event they held for the press a few years back.

They might be keen to reduce road usage (from cars and commercial vehicles) but when it comes to the tube, LO and buses - everything they do is to encourage more usage.

 

[Be3G]

They might be keen to reduce road usage (from cars and commercial vehicles) but when it comes to the tube, LO and buses - everything they do is to encourage more usage.

Well, nearly everything – it wouldn't surprise me if a few more people decided to hop in a car when TfL abolished the highly useful non-zone-1 Oyster caps which made a massive difference to the cost of ad-hoc outer London tube/rail travel! I've certainly used the buses more as a result, and that's only because I don't have a car.

I also thought it worth raising the point that with TfL's contactless strategy there is a plan for weekly price capping. So perhaps your hypothesis further upthread that with smartcards we could end up moving to a mostly PAYG system is actually going to prove to be fairly accurate.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Given that a season is normally priced on 3-4 days travel, I don't see what the advantage of a new flexi season ticket would be. Presumably this would then be 60% of the week's season ticket, which would take us down to not much more than one anytime return. It'd be interesting to see how many people would pick up one of those rather than the anytime return.

As for "shoulder peak" services, I think more can be done to distribute load. EC's northbound departures are an excellent example of how ridiculous the current situation is, with the Mo-Th 1819 and 1830 Newcastles being deserted with a rammed 1900, and then on a Friday the 1819 and 1830 being packed to the gills with a deserted 1800.