My idea for a new TPE

[YorkshireBear]

Are people from the "Boro" allowed south of York? hock:

Yes by changing trains at Northallerton or York! Thirsk concerns me more now i come to think of it as I am not sure there will be any TPE trains giving them no link to Leeds. Its just like Barrow but the other side of the Pennines... Although electrification to Middlesbrough is much more likely and beneficial!

Although I can't decide which way your jokey comment is going ie we shouldnt let people from boro south, or the lack of train means government is trying to stop them....

 

[northwichcat]

One of the big points DfT made when they announced North TPE electrification is that there would be regular Newcastle-Liverpool services with journey times of under 3 hours, making your Newcastle-Airport via the Ordsall Chord with Northallerton, Thirsk and Dewsbury calls extremely unlikely.

I think the proposed calling pattern for Liverpool to Newcastle (which is set to be half-hourly) is Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington and Durham only with some services calling at Chester-le-Street.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Northallerton and Thirsk are going to need something then.... Hmm

 

[anti-pacer]

Although I can't decide which way your jokey comment is going ie we shouldnt let people from boro south, or the lack of train means government is trying to stop them....

Both!

Joking aside, I do think in the short term Middlesbrough is getting a raw deal. I understand it's better to have EMU's running under the wires than DMU's, but they get no service to London (unless they go to Stockton or wherever), and soon no direct services to the rest of the North. The service up to Newcastle isn't great, being more "local" than "regional". What's more, it's a fairly depressed area economically.

An airport link is what they need, surely. Their local airport is very limited shall we say.

 

[northwichcat]

Northallerton and Thirsk are going to need something then.... Hmm

A York to Middlesbrough diesel service or possibly with extra TPE services serving Newcsatle the XC services which currently terminate at Newcastle could be diverted to Middlesbrough?

 

[YorkshireBear]

A York to Middlesbrough diesel service or possibly with extra TPE services serving Newcsatle the XC services which currently terminate at Newcastle could be diverted to Middlesbrough?

I doubt it would happen, but that seems the most logical thing to me..... Newcastle needs no more long distance services. So i would say that is a cracking idea... :/
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Both!

Joking aside, I do think in the short term Middlesbrough is getting a raw deal. I understand it's better to have EMU's running under the wires than DMU's, but they get no service to London (unless they go to Stockton or wherever), and soon no direct services to the rest of the North. The service up to Newcastle isn't great, being more "local" than "regional". What's more, it's a fairly depressed area economically.

An airport link is what they need, surely. Their local airport is very limited shall we say.

Not neccesarily though, not everywhere needs an airport link, better to give them goods links to Newcastle and Leeds than an airport imho.

 

[anti-pacer]

Not neccesarily though, not everywhere needs an airport link, better to give them goods links to Newcastle and Leeds than an airport imho.

It's a pity that a Middlesbrough/Hull-Manchester service could be joined together in Leeds, however that takes time to couple them, and time is probably not on your side on Platform 16 in Leeds station.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's a pity that a Middlesbrough/Hull-Manchester service could be joined together in Leeds, however that takes time to couple them, and time is probably not on your side on Platform 16 in Leeds station.

You hit the nail there. with 6tph you really don't want to be doing things like that... needs to be done in York only really... No where else can take it.

 

[DarloRich]

To remove the Manchester Airport services from Newcastle, Boro and Scarborough will not be popular at all. They are well used links to the major regional airport which are well advertised by TPE.Traffic will be lost if these services as people will not want to change trains with all of their holiday bags.

Also with no TPE link Boro becomes nothing but a dead end on a branch line from Darlo. I can’t imagine that being popular wit the mayor or local authority!
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Not neccesarily though, not everywhere needs an airport link, better to give them goods links to Newcastle and Leeds than an airport imho.

You are wrong in the case of the North Eastern TPE links. They are essential - what you are suggesting is breaking what are almost intercity links between the biggest towns and cities in Northern England and not replacing them.

And i hope changing at Northallerton is a joke!

 

[YorkshireBear]

To remove the Manchester Airport services from Newcastle, Boro and Scarborough will not be popular at all. They are well used links to the major regional airport which are well advertised by TPE.Traffic will be lost if these services as people will not want to change trains with all of their holiday bags.

Also with no TPE link Boro becomes nothing but a dead end on a branch line from Darlo. I can’t imagine that being popular wit the mayor or local authority!
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You are wrong in the case of the North Eastern TPE links. They are essential - what you are suggesting is breaking what are almost intercity links between the biggest towns and cities in Northern England and not replacing them.

And i hope changing at Northallerton is a joke!

Agree with Bold. The branch needs electrifying asap and one of the York Airport services extended. I am led to believe by NR it will follow on at the end. Fingers crossed. Which does then almost solve the problems mentioned about the North East in General. The only other mildly satisfactory solution I can see is diverting the Reading Newcastle service there. The current one certainly isn't and I accept that.

Like I say if I was deciding Newcastle would have one Airport and one Liverpool. Hull would be electrified and one through to Liverpool one to Piccadilly, York Piccadilly, and Middlesbrough electrified and through to Airport. Scarborough never really had them and I don't think its essential that branch has links beyond Leeds so I am happy with that.

All I was saying is I don't think it is essential (very different to ideal) they have an airport link. If I was deciding service patterns they would still get one!

 

[anti-pacer]

To remove the Manchester Airport services from Newcastle, Boro and Scarborough will not be popular at all. They are well used links to the major regional airport which are well advertised by TPE.Traffic will be lost if these services as people will not want to change trains with all of their holiday bags.

It's a pity that Newcastle Airport isn't south of Newcastle. That way they could get rid of DTV Airport and build a bigger regional airport easily accessible for the whole of the North East.

 

[DarloRich]

It's a pity that Newcastle Airport isn't south of Newcastle. That way they could get rid of DTV Airport and build a bigger regional airport easily accessible for the whole of the North East.

woah woah waoh!

Darlo International Airport is already rail connected! Get rid of newcastle Airport

The links between the north east, yorkshire and the north west need ot be built upon not removed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

woah woah waoh!

Darlo International Airport is already rail connected! Get rid of newcastle Airport

The links between the north east, yorkshire and the north west need ot be built upon not removed.

In a way Newcastle-Liverpool does full-fill your last comment.. :/ Ignoring Middlesbrough removal.

Can i ask that presuming electrification of Hull what would you do service pattern wise up to a max of 6 TPE Leeds-Manchester.

Then what would you do if Middlesborough was then also electrified. Again, max 6TPE Leeds Manchester.

Just wondering not arguing. You clearly know better the needs of the NE than I do.

 

[northwichcat]

To remove the Manchester Airport services from Newcastle, Boro and Scarborough will not be popular at all.

The standard pattern was Liverpool-Sunderland via Newcastle and Manchester Airport to Scarborough under Arriva Trains Northern but that was switched when the new franchise was awarded so that Newcastle got an Airport service instead of a Liverpool service and Scarborough got a Liverpool service instead of an Airport service.

So, the direct link between Newcastle and the Airport is only a fairly recent thing and Scarborough has already has lost it's Airport link, except for an odd token service.

 

[anti-pacer]

The standard pattern was Liverpool-Sunderland via Newcastle and Manchester Airport to Scarborough under Arriva Trains Northern but that was switched when the new franchise was awarded so that Newcastle got an Airport service instead of a Liverpool service and Scarborough got a Liverpool service instead of an Airport service.

So, the direct link between Newcastle and the Airport is only a fairly recent thing and Scarborough has already has lost it's Airport link, except for an odd token service.

It is shocking that Newcastle looks to Manchester as its "regional airport", given that they are approx 160 miles apart.

If in the same way Birmingham is the regional airport for the whole of the Midlands, well then Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire and Leicestershire have no direct rail links to it, and cope fine without one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To remove the Manchester Airport services from Newcastle, Boro and Scarborough will not be popular at all. They are well used links to the major regional airport which are well advertised by TPE.Traffic will be lost if these services as people will not want to change trains with all of their holiday bags.

I have tried to explain the point about people not wanting to change trains with all their holiday luggage on different threads in the past, but my worries were invariably decried as being not worthy of consideration...

 

[northwichcat]

I have tried to explain the point about people not wanting to change trains with all their holiday luggage on different threads in the past, but my worries were invariably decried as being not worthy of consideration...

I'm sure somewhere in the Northern Hub planning they've mentioned that passengers travelling to/from the Airport will be able to board a connecting service from the same platform at either Huddersfield or Leeds.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm sure somewhere in the Northern Hub planning they've mentioned that passengers travelling to/from the Airport will be able to board a connecting service from the same platform at either Huddersfield or Leeds.

Will there be enough station staff provided to help with the unloading of the holiday luggage from the first train and the restowing of it on the connecting service ?

 

[northwichcat]

Will there be enough station staff provided to help with the unloading of the holiday luggage from the first train and the restowing of it on the connecting service ?

Probably as many station staff as at places like Liverpool South Parkway, where a lot of people are boarding and alighting with luggage.

AFAIK staff usually don't do that unless you pre-book assistance.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably as many station staff as at places like Liverpool South Parkway, where a lot of people are boarding and alighting with luggage.

AFAIK staff usually don't do that unless you pre-book assistance.

I do assure you that I both understand and note the difference between passengers either alighting or embarking with holiday luggage at a railway station before or after a flight. My contention refers to having to do this at a mid-point of a journey between two trains, whilst still en-route to or from an airport.

 

[northwichcat]

Paul how would you get from Stoke or Macclesfield to Manchester Airport using public transport? I'd assume you'd get one train to Manchester Piccadilly and another (probably from a different platform) to the Airport. So I assume a guarantee of a same platform transfer would be a much better situation even if it's not as good as the current situation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul how would you get from Stoke or Macclesfield to Manchester Airport using public transport? I'd assume you'd get one train to Manchester Piccadilly and another (probably from a different platform) to the Airport. So I assume a guarantee of a same platform transfer would be a much better situation even if it's not as good as the current situation.

With regard to my own station area of Prestbury or the much larger next station of Macclesfield, holidaymakers will invariably use a taxi to Manchester Airport rather than to journey by rail to Manchester Piccadilly with their holiday luggage then to have to take another onward train to Manchester airport. Manchester Airport, being on the far south of the Manchester conurbation, is not such a great distance away from either of these two settlements. Taxi firms offer quite good rates to the airport in our area and do offer a home to airport journey.

 

[northwichcat]

With regard to my own station area of Prestbury or the much larger next station of Macclesfield, holidaymakers will invariably use a taxi to Manchester Airport rather than to journey by rail to Manchester Piccadilly with their holiday luggage then to have to take another onward train to Manchester airport. Manchester Airport, being on the far south of the Manchester conurbation, is not such a great distance away from either of these two settlements. Taxi firms offer quite good rates to the airport in our area and do offer a home to airport journey.

I've just done a quick search for Airport to Macclesfield taxis and one advertised rate of 'only £25' came up.

You might happily pay £25 or £12.50 per person each way if you were travelling with your wife. However, what if your travelling alone or the person(s) your travelling with live in a different location? £50 in total to get to and from the Airport sounds expensive, especially if you've booked a flight to Ireland for around £35 each way.

The thing with taxis is they can actually be cheaper than public transport if you have 4 people travelling together but can also be very expensive if you're going by yourself.

I've also just checked what flights are available from Newcastle Airport and it's quite a good selection now that Jet2 have expanded their base there. There's also options for travelling onwards at the foreign end of your plane journey e.g. for Newcastle to Florence the options are:
1. Rail trip with changes to Heathrow and flight to Florence.
2. Flight from Newcastle to Pisa and direct train or coach from Pisa Airport to central Florence with around a 45 minute journey time.

Even if there was a direct Newcastle-Heathrow rail service, it wouldn't be a faster option.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The thing with taxis is they can actually be cheaper than public transport if you have 4 people travelling together but can also be very expensive if you're going by yourself.

There is the matter of the convenience of being picked up from your residence and taken direct to a convenient point at an airport terminal. I wonder what would be shown to be the average "group size" travelling from Manchester Airport to and from their holiday destination.

I note that you have chosen Ireland as a "holiday destination" in your posting, but Manchester Airport has many flights taken by people going on holiday much further afield that that destination, attractive as it undoubtedly is.

If I may be so bold as to bring the matter back of Newcastle, when I have been at Manchester Airport en route with my good lady wife to Durham, there have been quite a number of Newcastle-based holiday travellers who appear to be attracted to certain notable holiday resorts in the USA and their package holiday has been routed via Manchester Airport by their travel company. Why should this be the case, if their own airport offers flights to there ?
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To remove the Manchester Airport services from Newcastle, Boro and Scarborough will not be popular at all. They are well used links to the major regional airport which are well advertised by TPE. Traffic will be lost from these services as people will not want to change trains with all of their holiday bags.

I note that you speak from your own Darlington area and I was interested to hear the view of someone resident in that region who feels, as you do, the trans-shipment of holiday luggage by Newcastle-based rail passengers at a mid-rail journey point from a railway station there to Manchester Airport.

 

[northwichcat]

To remove the Manchester Airport services from Newcastle, Boro and Scarborough will not be popular at all. They are well used links to the major regional airport which are well advertised by TPE.Traffic will be lost if these services as people will not want to change trains with all of their holiday bags.

Are you aware of Nexus' response to the consultation on TPE changes where they backed Newcastle trains going to Liverpool instead of Manchester Airport?
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-tpe-response-nexus.pdf

Anyway ORR have now approved the changes TPE requested so Newcastle will lose it's direct Airport service in favour of a Liverpool service from next May.

 

[Stats]

It is shocking that Newcastle looks to Manchester as its "regional airport", given that they are approx 160 miles apart.

It doesn't. It is a myth put about by a few anti-Newcastle people.

 

[markydh]

Are you aware of Nexus' response to the consultation on TPE changes where they backed Newcastle trains going to Liverpool instead of Manchester Airport?
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-tpe-response-nexus.pdf

Anyway ORR have now approved the changes TPE requested so Newcastle will lose it's direct Airport service in favour of a Liverpool service from next May.

Bit of a red herring, that one. Newcastle Airport is part owned by the local councils and therefore anything that makes travel to Manchester Airport less appealing can only be good as far as they are concerned!

 

[northern156]

I like the sound of the Tyne Valley link from the Boro to Carlisle... needs to be stopping at Metrocentre though in addition to Hexham and Haltwhistle!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyway ORR have now approved the changes TPE requested so Newcastle will lose it's direct Airport service in favour of a Liverpool service from next May.

Does this now mean the Newcastle package holiday travellers will now be using Liverpool South Parkway to start and end their vacations ?

 

[ex-railwayman]

Does nobody utilise Leeds/Bradford and Liverpool Airports anymore, I wonder why everyone needs to go to Manchester?

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.