My idea for a new TPE

[anti-pacer]

This is what I'd propose to replace TPE and longer-distance Northern services...

NorthernCitylink

My replacement for TPE and some longer distance services ran by Northern ... following North West and North TPE electrification

Service pattern as follows...

North Eastern services

1tph Newcastle-Durham-Darlington-York-Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester Victoria-St Helen's Junction-Liverpool Lime Street
(8 car EMU - preferably ex EC stock after IEP) **Branded "NORTHERN CITYLINK PLUS"**

1tph Newcastle-Chester-le-Street-Durham-Darlington-Northallerton-Thirsk-York-Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield-Manchester Victoria-Manchester Piccadilly-Airport
(4 car EMU)

1tph Middlesbrough-Thornaby-Yarm-Northallerton-Thirsk-York-Leeds-Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Manchester Piccadilly-Airport
(4 car DMU)

1tph Middlesbrough-Stockton-Billingham-Hartlepool-Sunderland-Newcastle-Metrocentre-Hexham-Haltwhistle-Carlisle (3 car DMU)


Yorkshire services

1tph Scarborough-Seamer-Malton-York-Garforth-Leeds-Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Manchester Piccadilly-Oxford Road-Birchwood-Warrington Central-Liverpool South Parkway-Liverpool Lime Street
(4 car DMU)

1tph Hull-Brough-Selby-Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly-Oxford Road-Earlestown-Warrington Bank Quay-Runcorn East-Chester-Wrexham
(4 car DMU)

1tph Leeds-Dewsbury-Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Manchester Victoria-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool North
(4 car EMU)

1tph Leeds-Bradford Int-Halifax-Hebden Bridge-Burnley Manc Road-Accrington-Blackburn-Preston-Blackpool North
(3 car DMU)

1tph Leeds-Wakefield K-Barnsley-Sheffield-Dronfield-Chesterfield-Dronfield-Alfreton-Langley Mill-Nottingham
(4 car DMU)

1tph Cleethorpes-Grimsby-Barnetby-Scunthorpe-Doncaster-Meadowhall-Sheffield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly-Airport
(4 car DMU)

1tph Scarborough-Seamer-Filey-Bridlington-Driffield-Beverley-Hull-Brough-Goole-Doncaster-Meadowhall-Sheffield
(3 car DMU)

8tpd Leeds-Shipley-Bingley-Keighley-Skipton-Settle-Kirkby Stephen-Appleby-Carlisle
(3/4 car DMU - 4 of the 8tpd all stations)


North West services

1tph Blackpool North-Kirkham-Preston-Leyland-Wigan NW-St Helen's Junction-Huyton-Liverpool Lime Street
(3 car EMU)

1tph Blackpool North-Kirkham-Preston-Chorley-Bolton-Salford Crescent-Manchester Oxford Road-Piccadilly-Airport
(4 car EMU)

1tph Windermere/Barrow (joining at Lancaster)-Preston-Bolton-Manchester Piccadilly-Airport
(3 car DMU - or 3 car EMU if Windermere was part of an electrification infill)


* New FAST service between Manchester and St Helen's Junction
* New service linking Leeds to Blackpool via Manchester, providing through journeys between Leeds/Dewsbury/Huddersfield/Stalybridge to Bolton, and Dewsbury/Huddersfield/Stalybridge to Preston/Blackpool
* New link between Wrexham, Manchester and Yorkshire, enabling a direct link from Chester to Yorkshire with an extra semi-fast train per hour between Chester and Manchester
* Faster link from Newcastle to Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool branded NorthernCitylinkPlus, offering a more "Inter City" service, between the North's major cities.
* Semi-fast service between Middlesbrough-Sunderland-Newcastle, to link in with the semi-fast from Newcastle-Carlisle
* Extending ALL semi-fast Sheffield-Bridlington services to Scarborough
* 3tph for both Dewsbury and Stalybridge

I'd also have branded "NorthernAirlink" coaches from Stockport and Stalybridge stations, direct via the M60/M56 to Manchester Airport.

Recently amended propositions in RED

So come on folks, rip my idea to shreds and tell me why it's not possible!

 

[Monty]

I won't say it's not possible, but I will say it won't happen.

 

[anti-pacer]

I won't say it's not possible, but I will say it won't happen.

Very true.... the DfT don't know where any of these places are!

Joking aside, in principle, what do you think?

 

[DarloRich]

without reading through everything i do note you change the Boro TPE service to a Liverpool rather than an Manchester Airport terminator. That will not be popular with lots of people.

Plus much as hate the thought of IEP wouldn't the dual fuel version be better on the Boro services as you would run all but the last 15-20 miles under wires.

I would also suggest, if possible, EMU based stopper services between Leeds and Newcastle.

I also notice Scarborough looses all TPE services westwards towards the North West cities and the Airport.

Manchester Airport is a vital location for many Yorkshire and North east based travelers. TPE market these links quite heavily.

 

[anti-pacer]

without reading through everything i do note you change the Boro TPE service to a Liverpool rather than an Manchester Airport terminator. That will not be popular with lots of people.

Plus much as hate the thought of IEP wouldn't the dual fuel version be better on the Boro services as you would run all but the last 15-20 miles under wires.

I would also suggest, if possible, EMU based stopper services between Leeds and Newcastle.

I also notice Scarborough looses all TPE services westwards towards the North West cities and the Airport.

Manchester Airport is a vital location for many Yorkshire and North east based travelers. TPE market these links quite heavily.

OK, amended slightly, retaining a link from Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport, a TP link from Scarborough, and including Northallerton in a Newcastle-Leeds stopper.

 

[DarloRich]

There would be "same platform connections" to airport services at Leeds, and the plan would be to use ex-EC stock (225's) on the faster Newcastle-Liverpool service, following IEP.

I would go with your suggestion of a EMU based stopper north of Leeds.

That will not be popular with passengers.

Considering the number of holiday makers who use the TPE services from the North East to the airport the prospect of lugging your vast collection of suitcases onto one train then off at Leeds and then onto another will be less than appealing
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OK, amended slightly, retaining a link from Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport, a TP link from Scarborough, and including Northallerton in a Newcastle-Leeds stopper.

i suppose in the ideal world your international airport link for the north east would be Newcastle, but that wont happen as you have to change from train to Metro.

God forbid Darlo International Airport could rise again!

 

[anti-pacer]

That will not be popular with passengers.

Considering the number of holiday makers who use the TPE services from the North East to the airport the prospect of lugging your vast collection of suitcases onto one train then off at Leeds and then onto another will be less than appealing

Amended now with that in mind.

Scarborough services originally went to Liverpool anyway, so kept that the same except the route.

 

[DarloRich]

The other issue is to try and get the Newcastle - Liverpool services back, as you suggest. The key here is to keep the existing service levels and augment them! Hopefully this will come with electrification.

I would like to see a local service back between Leeds/York and Newcastle as the lack of this service currently cuts the Northern franchise into rather odd chunks!

Looking at your plans in depth i think with the preserved airport links the idea is very sound. I tihnk a combined Northern/TPE franchise covering all of Northern England after electrification would be very helpful.

 

[anti-pacer]

i suppose in the ideal world your international airport link for the north east would be Newcastle, but that wont happen as you have to change from train to Metro.

God forbid Darlo International Airport could rise again!

But look at Heathrow. They only have direct rail connections to Paddington and some West London suburbs, and a "not fit for purpose" tube service.

When I say that, I mean luggage provision, not the service itself.

 

[DarloRich]

But look at Heathrow. They only have direct rail connections to Paddington and some West London suburbs, and a "not fit for purpose" tube service.

When I say that, I mean luggage provision, not the service itself.

seeing as i am making the journey to Heathrow next week i will let you know

Rail / tube links to Heathrow almost seem to have been an afterthought where as at Manchester they seem to have been part of the background thinking of any expansion.

Is a long term aspiration not to have it connected to the Metrolink system?

 

[anti-pacer]

seeing as i am making the journey to Heathrow next week i will let you know

Rail / tube links to Heathrow almost seem to have been an afterthought where as at Manchester they seem to have been part of the background thinking of any expansion.

Is a long term aspiration not to have it connected to the Metrolink system?

It is going to be part of the Metrolink.

Manchester Airport is a shining example of how an airport should be, in all ways.

 

[beano900]

Where's the trains via Warrington Central? I hope you aren't proposing to turn this route into a pacer graveyard?!

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[anti-pacer]

Where's the trains via Warrington Central? I hope you aren't proposing to turn this route into a pacer graveyard?!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

EMT's service and hopefully a semi-fast Liverpool-Manchester Airport service ran by 158's or similar.

 

[beano900]

That's a backward step. I'm out!

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[anti-pacer]

That's a backward step. I'm out!

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You're right! Tweeked and amended.

 

[beano900]

Wow, you are taking this very seriously. Nice work. My only criticism now - a four car dmu? That 2 car reduction at peak time means my face is going to be pressed against the glass on the way to work!

How difficult is it to keep everyone happy?!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

 

[YorkshireBear]

December 2018 timetable is all but decided by the way... Nothing via Warrington, And nothing from the North East to Manchester Airport at all. Two to the airport from York thats it.

 

[beano900]

Nothing via Warrington? I guess that makes sense considering the new electric route. But hopefully we'll still get some fast trains rather than all of them being rattlers that stop at every lamp post!

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[anti-pacer]

Under my proposals, Warrington would be well served under NorthernCitylink.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see that you have restored the Newcastle to Manchester Airport service that is proposed to be lost in real life soon.

 

[anti-pacer]

I see that you have restored the Newcastle to Manchester Airport service that is proposed to be lost in real life soon.

Stand up and vote for my proposals!

Come on DfT, think Northern...... for once! :roll:

 

[Darren R]

Not sure about the Leeds - Dewsbury - Manchester - Blackpool services. Even with EMUs it would still take longer than the current services via Bradford. Dewsbury itself could be better served to Blackpool via Hebden Bridge and East Lancashire - but that would deprive the latter of trains to Halifax and Bradford (and of course wouldn't be much use for Huddersfield passengers.) Also, don't forget that Stalybridge will have direct EMU services to Blackpool North post-Hub/electrification. Passengers from Dewbury and Huddersfield for Bolton and beyond will have cross-platform interchange there.

 

[anti-pacer]

Not sure about the Leeds - Dewsbury - Manchester - Blackpool services. Even with EMUs it would still take longer than the current services via Bradford. Dewsbury itself could be better served to Blackpool via Hebden Bridge and East Lancashire - but that would deprive the latter of trains to Halifax and Bradford (and of course wouldn't be much use for Huddersfield passengers.) Also, don't forget that Stalybridge will have direct EMU services to Blackpool North post-Hub/electrification. Passengers from Dewbury and Huddersfield for Bolton and beyond will have cross-platform interchange there.

Didn't realise that Stalybridge-Blackpool services are scheduled?!

 

[xtradj]

I would suggest liverpool would need more than one train per hour

Two are badly needed already

On via Piccadilly and one via Victoria is fine by me

 

[anti-pacer]

I would suggest liverpool would need more than one train per hour

Two are badly needed already

On via Piccadilly and one via Victoria is fine by me

They've been provided.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

It was suggested on our Lincolnshire thread by someone that they would like a TPE service to run to Lincoln, and of course this will bring up the infomation that has been passed to our group about the Department for Transport wanting a new TPE service to run from Cleethorpes via the Brigg line from 2016

 

[YorkshireBear]

There is nothing wrong with the current Dft proposals for TPE.

6 Trains per hour 5 electric 1 diesel. I reckon by 2021 it'll be 6 electric. 2tph Newcastle-Liverpool via Victoria. 2tph York-Airport. 1tph Selby-Piccadilly. 1tph Hull-Piccadilly. Once Hull electrified extend the Selby service there.

Newcastle does not need a service to Manchester airport. It is good yes but not essential. Personally I would divert one of the Newcastle's to airport and one of the York's to Liverpool. I see what they are doing though and logic stands up. They want Newcastle-Liverpool to be jewel of TPE, their express route limited stop. It will be a same platform interchange at Leeds Huddersfield or Manchester Victoria for connections to Airport. So not that bad.

While Warrington loses TPE services to Leeds it should gain services from other areas. Fast services. From the Hope Valley in particular I believe. The proposals are thought through and staged.

 

[anti-pacer]

There is nothing wrong with the current Dft proposals for TPE.

6 Trains per hour 5 electric 1 diesel. I reckon by 2021 it'll be 6 electric. 2tph Newcastle-Liverpool via Victoria. 2tph York-Airport. 1tph Selby-Piccadilly. 1tph Hull-Piccadilly. Once Hull electrified extend the Selby service there.

Newcastle does not need a service to Manchester airport. It is good yes but not essential. Personally I would divert one of the Newcastle's to airport and one of the York's to Liverpool. I see what they are doing though and logic stands up. They want Newcastle-Liverpool to be jewel of TPE, their express route limited stop. It will be a same platform interchange at Leeds Huddersfield or Manchester Victoria for connections to Airport. So not that bad.

While Warrington loses TPE services to Leeds it should gain services from other areas. Fast services. From the Hope Valley in particular I believe. The proposals are thought through and staged.

What's happening to Middlesborough/Thornaby/Yarm? Are they losing their TPE services? hock:

 

[YorkshireBear]

What's happening to Middlesborough/Thornaby/Yarm? Are they losing their TPE services? hock:

Yes for now. They will retain services to York I believe. I meant to mention this in my post. It is the only place which looses out for me in the entire TPE network. Once electrified and apparently it has a good case very likely for CP6, it will regain it. Again you will have good connections at York and Northallerton. Not ideal I agree, but it will regain it. From my experience most Middlesbrough traffic is from York anyway. Some from Leeds.

 

[anti-pacer]

Yes for now. They will retain services to York I believe. I meant to mention this in my post. It is the only place which looses out for me in the entire TPE network. Once electrified and apparently it has a good case very likely for CP6, it will regain it. Again you will have good connections at York and Northallerton. Not ideal I agree, but it will regain it. From my experience most Middlesbrough traffic is from York anyway. Some from Leeds.

Are people from the "Boro" allowed south of York? hock: