LU, LO, Tramlink and DLR fantasy plans

[jopsuk]

Cutting this out of the "Bakerloo east" thread


District Line: Turn the Uxbridge-Acton part of the Picadilly over to the District (and then severing the connections at Hammersmith/Barons Court, leaving simplified connections at Acton purely for engineering trains).

Four track to Richmond, or terminate the Distric at Gunnersby, allowing the Richmond LO branch to become AC

Metropolitan: Four track to Rickmansworth and then terminate. Turn "fast" lines north of Harrow over to NR.


These together would create a Sub Surface Railway with no interaction with deep tube lines or Network Rail.

Oh, and extend all stations to be able to take S8, convert all the S7s to S8 (with identical layout).

Crazy level SSL: all junctions grade sperated.

Insane level SSL: That, plus an extra pair of tracks dedicated for Circle Line services, back on a simple Circle.

Bakerloo: As well as extending south to Hayes, I'd have it tunnel back underground where the Queens Park sheds are, running west into the "gap" between Uxbridge and West Drayton.

London Overground:

if an outer London freight orbital was constructed, there's be less pressure on the NLL. So, properly four-track from Dalston through to Camden West, but keep it as two seperate pairs of tracks. Run Watford DC services along the southern pair, via the Primrose Hill junction, rather than into Euston, on a higher frequency.

make the Watford DC AC, and extend the wires to New Cross, New Cross Gate and Surrey Canal Road. Where there's a will, there's a way to do so through the tunnels. Rather than sharing tracks into Watford Junction with the met, dive down before High Street, have low level platforms there and at Junction, surface, run to St Albans and tunnel through to terminate at a low level beneath the MML station. Run St Albans-New Cross as a service.

LO to take over Aylesbury (and Chesham)- to go AC. Also Welwyn, Hertford North and East, new terminating services to Harlow, Enfield line, Chingford and more.




Disentangling the Sub Surface lines from one another, and the District from itself, is sadly beyond impractical

 

[D365]

This 'TfL fantasy thread' inspired by me of course For starters, Abbey Line extended under St. Albans to the MML station and on to Hatfield and beyond!

 

[Mojo]

These together would create a Sub Surface Railway with no interaction with deep tube lines or Network Rail.

What about Wimbledon? The infrastructure is currently owned by LU, and when the upgrade is complete will currently move to LU signalling, but SWT services still use the line, and the traction current will still be looked after by Network Rail.
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District Line: Turn the Uxbridge-Acton part of the Picadilly over to the District (and then severing the connections at Hammersmith/Barons Court, leaving simplified connections at Acton purely for engineering trains).

I have thought about this a few times, but what would you do with the 6tph on the District?

 

[tsr]

I'd quite like to see LO extended to a circular service calling at all stations between the following: Clapham Junction - West Croydon - Epsom Downs - Tattenham Corner - Purley - East Croydon - Clapham Junction. A new line would be built between Tattenham Corner & Epsom Downs. Other (non-TfL) National Rail services would benefit from the ability to divert through a new, tunnelled chord between Hooley and Chipstead (Bottom), and then over the new line through Tattenham Corner. The line would see 2tph LO (on the aforementioned route), 1tph through the Thameslink Core (Sutton-Purley all stations, then semi-fast to a destination North of the Thames) and 1tph through the WLL to Watford Junction. The latter could be operated by LO - or it could be run by the TSGN franchise, and would split/divide at Purley, with portions also going to Reigate & Tonbridge.

There would also be a 2tph LO service to Caterham, running through to New Cross Gate, then onwards. This would be in addition to 1tph to London Victoria & 1tph through the TL Core.

 

[joeykins82]

I think that long term TfL will take over most of the stopping/metro routes for all of the lines in to and through London (with the possible exception of Thameslink due to the complexity that would arise from multiple operators sharing a route as intensive as the post-KO2 Thameslink core). If it hadn't been for interference TfL would probably also have been gunning to take over the Wimbledon/Sutton loop services when they became an isolated service starting/terminating at Blackfriars, they'll take over the Tring stoppers when someone finally announces that the WCML will be connected to Crossrail. SouthEastern's metro services should've been transferred at the same time as GA's (thanks Kent County Council) but hopefully the success of the West Anglia transfer will encourage the swap next time. The Hertford loop is screaming for LO conversion and extended operating hours, many SWT services are in Crossrail 2's sights and when the Southern franchise is merged with Thameslink the metro services could well be split off and given over. That just leaves Chiltern & C2C who've got a history of playing nicely with TfL and aren't likely to change because of the nature of their services.

And TfL don't want to operate anything at less than 4tph as that's their stated minimum "turn up and go" frequency. Running 1tph services would damage the London Overground brand.

 

[JamesRowden]

And TfL don't want to operate anything at less than 4tph as that's their stated minimum "turn up and go" frequency. Running 1tph services would damage the London Overground brand.

The Charing Cross - Sevenoaks metro services that Boris Johnson wanted to take over can only run 2tph because of sharing the tracks with mainline servcies.

 

[joeykins82]

I thought London-Sevenoaks via Grove Park was 4tph, alternating between Charing Cross and Cannon Street?

EDIT: I see it's 4tph to Orpington of which 2tph continue to Sevenoaks. Is that a capacity issue or that SE don't think it's worthwhile offering more than 2tph off peak?

 

[bicbasher]

I thought London-Sevenoaks via Grove Park was 4tph, alternating between Charing Cross and Cannon Street?

EDIT: I see it's 4tph to Orpington of which 2tph continue to Sevenoaks. Is that a capacity issue or that SE don't think it's worthwhile offering more than 2tph off peak?

Mainline services that operate between Orpington and Sevenoaks are 2tph to Tunbridge Wells, 2tph to Hastings, 1tph Dover Priory/Canterbury West, 1tph Ramsgate.

The only suggestion I have is LO taking over the Outer SLL with the 2tph operating between Dalston Junction and Shepherds Bush. However this would reduce the Southern services into London Bridge off-peak to 2tph on the Sydenham line and 2tph to Victoria via Streatham Hill.

 

[Antman]

I thought London-Sevenoaks via Grove Park was 4tph, alternating between Charing Cross and Cannon Street?

EDIT: I see it's 4tph to Orpington of which 2tph continue to Sevenoaks. Is that a capacity issue or that SE don't think it's worthwhile offering more than 2tph off peak?

To be honest 2tph are more than adequate for loadings on that section.

 

[joeykins82]

Mainline services that operate between Orpington and Sevenoaks are 2tph to Tunbridge Wells, 2tph to Hastings, 1tph Dover Priory/Canterbury West, 1tph Ramsgate.

Oh I know that, and TfL wouldn't be interested in those. It's the "all stations" services that are candidates for transfer to TfL, and they've proven that by upping the service frequency on neglected lines to a turn-up-and-go level that you can vastly increase ridership. The question is could 4tph calling all stations as far as Sevenoaks be pathed in amongst the mainline services?

 

[bicbasher]

Oh I know that, and TfL wouldn't be interested in those. It's the "all stations" services that are candidates for transfer to TfL, and they've proven that by upping the service frequency on neglected lines to a turn-up-and-go level that you can vastly increase ridership. The question is could 4tph calling all stations as far as Sevenoaks be pathed in amongst the mainline services?

Can't see that happening for exactly the reasons that Kent County Council had when TfL proposed to take over Southeastern metro services. Out of those stations, only Dunton Green is within Kent's boundary which isn't served by mainline services.

KCC vetoed an additional proposal to allow some Kent Coast services from Victoria to call at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye to maintain 4tph after the Inner SLL was transferred to London Overground to protect the fast service for their residents.

 

[jopsuk]

Which is why on fantasy plans LO services need their own dedicated tracks. They should also, if not orbital services, be connected across the city via a Crossrail-type tunnel. Interactions with long distance services and using city centre terminals are the enemies of efficient metro services- as are orbitals that at any point share tracks with even other non-orbital metro services.

So, other proposals:
DLR extension from Lewisham to Bromely North (taking over the branch).

Go further, use the outer parts of the Bromley north platforms and the ability of the DLR to handle gradients, and tunnel down, under bromley North, to interchanges with the Bakerloo a Hayes and Tramlink at New Addington

"Corckscrew" the DLR beyond Woolwich, interchange at Falconwood, Sidcup and St mary Cray, terminating at Orpington. Not to provide direct services to central London, but to provide orbital services.

Similarly, take the Dagenham extension back into consideration, but tunnel under to Thamesmead, interchange at Abbey Wood and Bexleyheath, terminate at Bexley.

 

[joeykins82]

Transferring the inner London all stations services would've protected the fast services though because there would've been no need to stop at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye; TfL proposed adding a Victoria to Bromley South via Catford service if they took over the metro route, as well as upping the Saturday and Sunday service frequencies, running later services and extending Oyster travelcard & PAYG out to Dartford and Sevenoaks. It was inaccurate scaremongering from somewhere that led to the belief that the fast services would somehow be gutted to make way for TfL's grand metro-only future.
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Rather than extending the DLR to Bromley North, why not branch the Bakerloo line extension at Lewisham and run half to Hayes and half to Bromley North instead?

 

[AndyLandy]

Get shot of the Waterloo & City line and instead extend the DLR from Bank to Waterloo.

 

[JamesRowden]

Rather than extending the DLR to Bromley North, why not branch the Bakerloo line extension at Lewisham and run half to Hayes and half to Bromley North instead?

The Bakerloo line extension proposal already includes two branches. Both via the Hayes line but one to Beckenham Junction and the other to Hayes. I would guess that each would get an every 5 minute off-peak service.
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In fantasy world where disruption due to conversion works do not matter:

It might would be worth creating an even more sophistacted grade seperated junction at Chislehurst to route all Southeastern mainline services to Charing Cross, Cannon Street and Thameslink. A fast service of 20 tph are supposed to be possible on the GWML and so it should be possible to get that level running on the SEML. Some of the extra capacity could be used for Southeastern services which would use a new line from Sevenoaks to Eridge and then splits into a line to Eastbourne and a line to Brighton via Lewes thus solving some of the capacity problems on the Brighton Mainline.

The Gravesend non High Speed servcies would be transfered to Fenchurch Street via the HS1 tunnel or its own tunnel or a bridge across the Thames.

All of the Southeastern metro services could then be taken over by the Victoria, Bakerloo and Jubilee lines:

Victoria Line

• Stockwell - Denmark Hill - Lewisham - Charlton
• Stockwell - Catford - Bromley South - Chistlehurst - Swanley - Bat & Ball - Sevenoaks
• Stockwell - Herne Hill - Beckenham - Bromley South - Chislehurst - Orpington - Sevenoaks

Bakerloo Line

• Waterloo - Elephant & Castle - Queens Road - New Cross Gate - Lewisham - Lewisham - Sidcup - Ebbsfleet Int (close Northfleet station)
• Waterloo - Elephant & Castle - Queens Road - New Cross Gate - Lewisham - Beckenham - Hayes
• Waterloo - London Bridge - Lewisham - Chislehurst - Orpington
• Waterloo - London Bridge - Lewisham - Grove Park - Bromley North - Bromley South

Jubilee Line

• London Bridge - Stratford (X2)
• London Bridge - Depford - Dartford (X1)
• London Bridge - Lewisham - Bexleyheath - Dartford (X1)

This plan involves new tracks for mainline services between Orpington and Sevenoaks, a new interchange station at Bechenham and the Underground services along the Chatham Mainline having having its lines diverted via Chislehurst station for interchange purposes.

 

[joeykins82]

I don't know if you've ever used the Victoria line from Brixton in to Victoria and beyond in the mornings but I can assure you that extending it southwards would not be considered an improvement

 

[JamesRowden]

I don't know if you've ever used the Victoria line from Brixton in to Victoria and beyond in the mornings but I can assure you that extending it southwards would not be considered an improvement

I think that many of the passengers presently using the Victoria line would be originating from locations along the Victoria Line extensions and some would use other lines because of rerouting the mainline services via London Bridge. Crossrail 2 is supposed to reduce the capacity problems on the Victoria Line.

Then again maybe many of the benfits of my suggestion would be produced by just these:

• The upgraded junction at Chislehurst
• All Southeastern mainline services routed via London Bridge to Charing Cross (up to 20tph)
• More of the Southeastern metro services via London Bridge running to Cannon Street and Thameslink
• Orpington - Sevenoaks quadruaple tracked (somehow)
• Sevenoaks - Eastbourne/Brighton line
• Bakerloo line being extended to Hayes with an interchange station at Beckenham (perhaps it could take over one of the Dartford lines too)

 

[philjo]

I don't know how feasible this is or if it has ever been investigated? Is there room to somehow provide grade separation on the H&C/Circle & Met line junction at Baker Street? The number of times eastbound trains sit waiting for a northbound met line train to cross in front... It would allow a more frequent service along the north side of the circle.

I suppose that the Bakerloo/jubilee below would prevent a dive-under.

 

[JamesRowden]

Just come up with a major problem with my earlier suggestions of Underground line extensions, some of the lines need to be accessible by freight (e.g. for Channel Tunnel - WCML).

 

[jopsuk]

No they don't Not if you add a London Freight Orbital, taking those trains around the outside rather than across the city.

 

[philjo]

I often thought about the feasibilty of extending the Northern City Line form Moorgate to link up with a south London destination.
e.g. Extend from Moorgate to either: Blackfriars OR City Thameslink & Temple (circle/District interchange) then Waterloo? or Vauxhall (Highbury & the city to Vauxhall would take some strain off the Victoria Line) and join up with a Waterloo service in the Clapham Junction area, say to Hampton Court or the Hounslow Loop.
Or try to simply link to South East London via Cannon Street?

 

[joeykins82]

The Northern City line services can't realistically be extended beyond 6 cars; taking up valuable south of the Thames paths with 6 car services would be... "unhelpful"

 

[jopsuk]

however, if you were being unrealistic, you'd bore out the NCL to take all standard UK rolling stock, including enough headroom for AC, and hollow out the stations to be long enough to take 200m trains, extending platforms on the surface all the way to Welwyn and Hertford.

In a proper silly plan, you could also six-track the mainline to Welwyn (four track throughout from there to York thereafter) and four-track the line to Hertford allowing Northern City and across services to run without using any infrastructure used by GN/Thameslink/ECML Intercity services- as part of this Letchworth terminators would no longer go to Moorgate.

Where would you link to though? Reckon there would be little point in running much more than 12tph (6 to Welwyn, 6 to Hertford). Perhaps add another six if you resurrected the link across to Highgate then perhaps up to terminate at Alexandra Palace?

 

[bennunn]

Give the Victoria-Lewisham line to TfL and turn it into something useful.

Stations at Brockley, Loughborough Junction (as part of a bigger interchange), Brixton, Clapham North/High Street. Maybe reopen Grosvenor Road too.

Run Victoria-Dartford and Victoria-Hayes services on the line.

 

[ert47]

I often thought about the feasibilty of extending the Northern City Line form Moorgate to link up with a south London destination.

Extend it to Waterloo via Bank. It would take over the W&C Line, which are re-bored so larger trains can navigate the tunnels and add then an extra station at Blackfriars.

 

[mister-sparky]

Give the Victoria-Lewisham line to TfL and turn it into something useful.

Stations at Brockley, Loughborough Junction (as part of a bigger interchange), Brixton, Clapham North/High Street. Maybe reopen Grosvenor Road too.

Run Victoria-Dartford and Victoria-Hayes services on the line.

Victoria to Dartford on this line already exists at 2tph...

 

[bicbasher]

Victoria to Dartford on this line already exists at 2tph...

Bar an extra service which started last week, there's nothing after 8pm or on Sundays. This line would have benefitted from being under TfL control.

 

[Eagle]

It would take over the W&C Line, which are re-bored so larger trains can navigate the tunnels and add then an extra station at Blackfriars.

It would be a lot cheaper to abandon the W&C and bore a completely new pair of tunnels.

 

[jopsuk]

Whilst that's true, this is fantasy thread.

Even still, better to fill in the existing tunnels and bore a new, optimised, alignment

 

[Manchester77]

If we're talking fantasy how about extending the DLR from bank along the disued widened lines at Moorgate and Barbican terminating at the big Thameslink, Crossrail interchange of Farringdon?

More realistic post GOBLIN electrification run a Watford Junction - Stratford via Primrose Hill service that was you keep services along the DC lines and South Hampstead as well as free up paths into Euston. You could then even run a Barking - Richmond / South/West London Destination?