Northern possibly close to taking on extra EMUs

[tbtc]

Maybe a clearer comparison.

Scotrail have 330 trains (ignoring the sleeper sets) and over 1/3 were manufactured after British Rail was abolished. Only the ex-BR 156s travel in to England in passenger service.

Northern, TPE and Merseyrail have 442 trains and just over 17% were manufactured after BR was abolished. The newest trains out of the 3 fleets (the 185s) are the only trains to travel in to Scotland in passenger service.

A comparison between Northern and Scotrail only would give around the same number of trains. However, I can see people saying that would be unfair given TPE have most of the new stock in the North.

You could say some of the newer stock in other franchises briefly going in to the North of England towards the end of a service is cancelled out by the 185s going outside the North of England to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Cleethorpes

I think that the big difference is that Scotrail operate well over 90% of the total daily mileage in Scotland (and most of the services that Scotrail doesn't run only stop at a couple of stations north of the border).

I'd estimate that the three TOCs you've used in your English example run a lower overall percentage of services in "the north" when you consider the ATW/ EC/ EMT/ HT/ GC/ LM/ XC services - almost all of whom run post-privatisation trains (EC don't, but are getting the 800/801s).

The reality is that there's been very little investment in local DMUs in England and Wales. The franchise boundaries mean that Northern looks a lot worse because its DMUs are all pre-BR, whilst other TOCs have got new EMUs or longer distance DMUs - which mask the fact that local routes in south Wales/ south west England etc are still using ex-BR stock.

 

[northwichcat]

whilst other TOCs have got new EMUs or longer distance DMUs - which mask the fact that local routes in south Wales/ south west England etc are still using ex-BR stock.

Some other operators use 'regional' stock on routes similar to those that Northern use Pacers on. The Southern class 171 routes are similar in length and with a similar number of stops to Northern's Southport and Mid-Cheshire services, which mainly see a mix of Pacers and 150s. While Scotrail use class 170s on services of under 1 hour in length.

 

[anti-pacer]

The same could be said of local services in Wales or the south west of England (presumably the ATW 175s don't meet your definition of "local stock for local people" as they run long distance routes similar to what 185s etc do in northern England?).

Why are we in the North of England (which is 3 regions - population 14-15m) constantly being compared to the South West (population 5.2m) or Wales (population 3.6m) in terms of railways?

We have more big cities up here than anywhere else in the UK, with a decent commuter flow into Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool especially.

Wales is only "built up" in its south east corner, and the only sizeable city in the South West is Bristol.

The fact is that LOCAL services in the North are, generally, operated by shoddy, unsuitable stock.

Compare the stock operating into Manchester on local lines to Birmingham's equivalents. Two very similar sized conurbations with a big difference in rolling stock quality (323's aside).

 

[PR1Berske]

Anti-pacer, I can explain why in one sentence.

We are Northern, so do not matter to the southern based railway industry.

 

[anti-pacer]

Anti-pacer, I can explain why in one sentence.

We are Northern, so do not matter to the southern based railway industry.

Agreed!

Hopefully one day they'll give us the DfTNE (Department for Transport in Northern England).

In fact, hopefully we'll get independence and become "Northern England" with a parliament based in Leeds, with the interests of northerners at the forefront of their agenda.

We can't be any worse off. In fact, I wonder if Scotland would have us! :grin:

 

[PR1Berske]

Agreed!

Hopefully one day they'll give us the DfTNE (Department for Transport in Northern England).

In fact, hopefully day we'll get independence and become "Northern England" with a parliament based in Leeds, with the interests of northerners at the forefront of their agenda.

We can't be any worse off. In fact, I wonder if Scotland would have us! :grin:

As a Lancastrian I hope you permit me to suggest that an independent Northern Republic would have its seat in Manchester

 

[anti-pacer]

As a Lancastrian I hope you permit me to suggest that an independent Northern Republic would have its seat in Manchester

Over my dead body! Under my proposals, Manchester would become our landfill site!

Not much change needed there then!

 

[northwichcat]

Over my dead body! Under my proposals, Manchester would become our landfill site!

Not much change needed there then!

That's an improvement on what it was in the early 1990s then. It looked like a bomb site with new trams running around it. Then the IRA came along and actually bombed it and it didn't look much different.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a Lancastrian I hope you permit me to suggest that an independent Northern Republic would have its seat in Manchester

What about Todmorden or Barnoldswick which have been in both Yorkshire and Lancashire?

 

[Blindtraveler]

without wanting to drag this further off topic, yes Im sure Scotland would have you, providing you keep the 150s, ban the 185s from anywhere north of Oxenholm and send us all the pacers! What fabulous little trains, I love m!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On topic again, Im glad someone else like me saw the potential for 321s, greater Anglias this time though, making there way north and 317s going to Anglia again. Im sure Ginger will be delighted!↲

 

[anti-pacer]

send us all the pacers! What fabulous little trains, I love m!

hock:

 

[northwichcat]

Let's see Northern have 92 x 2 car Pacers and 10 x 3 car Pacers.

Scotrail have 94 x 2 car Sprinters and plenty of 170s.

So Scotrail can take all the Northern Pacers in exchange for their 94 of their Sprinters and 8 of their 170s. Agreed?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One big difference in Birmingham is that there is only one PTE (Centro) and it has done a good job developing its services (though early on it was alleged they were "anti-rail").
The West Mids rail system is also centralised on Birmingham and altogether the setup is a decently integrated system. There is also only one NR Route to deal with.
Meanwhile the North has, depending on how you count them, 5 PTEs, and the rail services cut across their boundaries in a very unhelpful way.
There are also 2 NR Routes involved in any region-wide decisions.
Until recently there wasn't much integration or common interest, but it does look to be coming together better now.
You could also argue from a regional point of view that splitting Northern and TPE was counter-productive, whereas in Brum there's essentially only LM.
Hopefully electrification and the new franchises with local management will start to put things right.

 

[SF-02]

Agreed!

Hopefully one day they'll give us the DfTNE (Department for Transport in Northern England).

In fact, hopefully we'll get independence and become "Northern England" with a parliament based in Leeds, with the interests of northerners at the forefront of their agenda.

We can't be any worse off. In fact, I wonder if Scotland would have us! :grin:

A federal system would suit the Uk better in many many ways. Scotland and Wales now have much more independence, and England's regions should gain greater autonomy. I say this as a Londoner who has travelled around the country and seen the differences. Centralisation at Westminster has been harming the north, the Midlands, and the South west over many decades.

 

[anti-pacer]

A federal system would suit the Uk better in many many ways. Scotland and Wales now have much more independence, and England's regions should gain greater autonomy. I say this as a Londoner who has travelled around the country and seen the differences. Centralisation at Westminster has been harming the north, the Midlands, and the South west over many decades.

Amen to that!

 

[northwichcat]

Meanwhile the North has, depending on how you count them, 5 PTEs, and the rail services cut across their boundaries in a very unhelpful way.

Plus you get PTEs focusing on the main city in their area and ignoring other places.

For instance, TfGM have claimed on numerous occasions that there isn't any overcrowding on Mid-Cheshire line services and claim the peak loadings are only up to around 80% of the seated capacity. However, one service which goes away from Manchester in the morning peak has a loading of around 185% of the seated capacity on departure from Altrincham (within the TfGM area.)

 

[anti-pacer]

Metro is without doubt the best PTE up here for rail.

 

[northwichcat]

Metro is without doubt the best PTE up here for rail.

You know they were the only PTE to agree to using Pacer trains initially (the 141s). GMPTE, later on, tried to refuse the 142s in favour of the superior class 210s but the Thatcher government didn't like the thought of new decent trains serving places like Wigan and refused and GMPTE, like Merseytravel, got a mix of 142s and 150s. Centro were the only PTE to manage to avoid Pacers altogether.

 

[anti-pacer]

You know they were the only PTE to agree to using Pacer trains initially (the 141s). GMPTE, later on, tried to refuse the 142s in favour of the superior class 210s but the Thatcher government didn't like the thought of new decent trains serving places like Wigan and refused and GMPTE, like Merseytravel, got a mix of 142s and 150s. Centro were the only PTE to manage to avoid Pacers altogether.

Proof if ever it was needed that whichever set of idiots get in power, they ignore the North! :roll:

 

[trickyvegas]

Agreed!

Hopefully one day they'll give us the DfTNE (Department for Transport in Northern England).

In fact, hopefully we'll get independence and become "Northern England" with a parliament based in Leeds, with the interests of northerners at the forefront of their agenda.

We can't be any worse off. In fact, I wonder if Scotland would have us! :grin:

We should start by forming Lancorkashire, and charging tolls on all the main arteries through our territories. We can then annex Cheshire, High Peak, Cumbria and Northumbria at a later date.

 

[jon0844]

Did Mrs T really say she didn't want new trains serving particular areas?

It seems to me that, at the time, these trains seemed like a low-cost solution that could potentially keep services running that might otherwise have been too costly, and potentially axed.

Sadly, the choice of stock was pretty poor - but that was true of a lot of British built stuff. I doubt anyone would have dared suggest that we looked abroad for alternatives then.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We should start by forming Lancorkashire, and charging tolls on all the main arteries through our territories. We can then annex Cheshire, High Peak, Cumbria and Northumbria at a later date.

Hey there, keep your hot little mitts off both parts of Cheshire..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

GMPTE, later on, tried to refuse the 142s in favour of the superior class 210s but the Thatcher government didn't like the thought of new decent trains serving places like Wigan and refused and GMPTE, like Merseytravel, got a mix of 142s and 150s.

I have often heard it said on RailUK that the Class 142 Pacers were introduced with the altruistic intent that they would be the sole salvation of many branch line and minor line services in North-West England. I do not recall any of those postings adding a cynical Government other reason for this action, but then perhaps those forum members making these postings did not want to reveal this added dimension.

 

[chorleyjeff]

We should start by forming Lancorkashire, and charging tolls on all the main arteries through our territories. We can then annex Cheshire, High Peak, Cumbria and Northumbria at a later date.

LEEDS......LEEDS!!!!!!!!
No thanks.
A reconstituted County Palatine is a far better idea. Embrace the annexed territories of Merseyside, Manchester and Furness into Lancashire and have the site of Govt. in Preston.

 

[PR1Berske]

LEEDS......LEEDS!!!!!!!!
No thanks.
A reconstituted County Palatine is a far better idea. Embrace the annexed territories of Merseyside, Manchester and Furness into Lancashire and have the site of Govt. in Preston.

I like the cut of your jib, Jeff.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Embrace the annexed territories of Merseyside, Manchester and Furness into Lancashire and have the site of Govt. in Preston.

Then set up an organisation called 'Transport for Lancashire', shorten it to TfL, and just watch the DfT throw money your way?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Then set up an organisation called 'Transport for Lancashire', shorten it to TfL, and just watch the DfT throw money your way?

I sense a most keen mind has been activating "the little grey cells" here...

 

[Blindtraveler]

To go or at least try to go back to topic here it was stated 319s heading Nortwards would have a good refurb before going. Did the powers that be ever set a budget for this and state which funding pot it came out of? If so my question is could the tables, racks and FC be cheeply wripped out of the 317s and 3 plus 2 seating done? This would be worth it for the capacity and as nobody has shown willing to take them in there current form would not have to be reversed?↲

 

[WatcherZero]

Would be the financial responsibility of the ROSCO's to refurbish them, they would make it back by slightly increasing the leasing charges.

 

[Kettledrum]

The fact is that LOCAL services in the North are, generally, operated by shoddy, unsuitable stock.

Compare the stock operating into Manchester on local lines to Birmingham's equivalents. Two very similar sized conurbations with a big difference in rolling stock quality (323's aside).

Yes - both these points are absolutely correct. You do have to factor in though that Manchester has got a fantastic tram network, whereas the greater West Midlands got one very basic tram line from Wolverhampton to Birmingham.

Manchester has also got a vastly superior motorway network, including an orbital motorway that goes all the way round. The West Midlands has the M42 going half way round and an expensive toll motorway.

The West Midlands needed the more modern trains because that's allmost all it has for commuters.

Huge transport problems, virtually no trams, and no orbital motoway.

 

[Helvellyn]

You know they were the only PTE to agree to using Pacer trains initially (the 141s). GMPTE, later on, tried to refuse the 142s in favour of the superior class 210s but the Thatcher government didn't like the thought of new decent trains serving places like Wigan and refused and GMPTE, like Merseytravel, got a mix of 142s and 150s. Centro were the only PTE to manage to avoid Pacers altogether.

The Class 210s were not mass-produced for anyone, as they were considered an expensive option. I take it GMPTE were punished for this attitude by being forced to take the first 14 142s? I notice it's often forgotten that the next 14 142s were sent to Devon & Cornwall, but soon headed up North due to excessive wheel wear on the tight curves of the branches, seeing modernisation plan DMUs sent back to Devon & Cornwall!

On a separate point, this whole woe is the North things wears thin - and this as a Northerner! I think that Northern England can be said to have had more new stock post-privatisation than East Anglia (360s and 170s); Great Western (14 180s, which are now reduced to 5, and they only came back recently); and Wales (27 Class 175s, and they were ordered for use by First North Western in North Wales and the North West).

As to the South of England, well what else was going to replace late-1950s through to early-1970s vintage slam door Mark 1 derived EMUs other than new build stock? It's not like there was a strategic reserve of third rail EMUs that could be cascaded!

And talking of cascades, it was very much a BR thing to cascade stock around. The Class 150/1s were displaced from a number of semi-express services by Class 156s, which were in turn displaced by Class 158s once they came on stream. They are lots of other examples of stock being cascaded to other routes, and the Class 319s heading North would just be another example of this. And with a thorough, high quality refurbishment (see SWT or Southern 455 for what can be done with BREL York 1980s built stock) the vast majority of the fare paying public will think they have some pretty nice new electric trains.

 

[Kettledrum]

To go or at least try to go back to topic here it was stated 319s heading Nortwards would have a good refurb before going. Did the powers that be ever set a budget for this and state which funding pot it came out of? If so my question is could the tables, racks and FC be cheeply wripped out of the 317s and 3 plus 2 seating done? This would be worth it for the capacity and as nobody has shown willing to take them in there current form would not have to be reversed?↲

OK - rant over and back on topic. Is 3+2 seating really a good idea. Doesn't 2+2 give you much more standing space and therefore much more total capacity if it's done properly?