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Fracking

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Oswyntail

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Where is there a place with more than 100 square miles of solar panels?
Sorry! I misinterpreted your (obviously clear) sentence as meaning "in total". There are vast solar farms in these places, though, and they are not producing enough.

url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:solar_land_area.png[/url]
Interesting map, but I have a gut feeling that the technology is not up to it. And just look where those black dots are. Politics and transportation also need to be taken into account.
 
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Wyvern

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19 arrested at fracking demo

Green MP Caroline Lucas was one of more than a dozen people arrested today after police broke an anti-fracking blockade of a West Sussex drilling site.

Snatch squads were seen dragging demonstrators from the front gates of energy giant Cuadrilla's Balcombe site after police declared the picket a breach of public order, alleging that it could potentially block emergency services from reaching the site.

The protest's organisers No Dash For Gas reported 19 arrests at the time of writing.

Engineers at the site are conducting "exploratory drilling."

The company says it has not yet sought permission from the government to begin hydraulic fracturing, known as fracking, but Prime Minister David Cameron has already publicly backed the plans with claims a glut of domestic gas would spur energy firms to cut their fuel bills.

But locals and industry critics have vigorously opposed the drilling.

Environmental experts have said the practice of cracking bedrock with high-pressure chemicals carries serious risk of poisoning the water table, damaging the environment and even triggering small-scale earthquakes - the latter felt during drilling in Blackpool two years ago.

Ms Lucas said in a prepared statement today that she and others had taken non-violent direct action "only after exhausting every other means of protest available to us.

"I'm in the privileged position of being able to put questions to the government directly and arrange debates in Parliament, but still ministers have refused to listen.

"Despite the opposition to fracking being abundantly clear, the government has completely ignored the views of those they are supposed to represent."

Meanwhile a No Dash For Gas crew staged a surprise sit-in of the company's head offices in Lichfield, Staffordshire, chaining themselves to office filing cabinets.

Others in London planted a "for shale" sign outside the home of Lord Howell - a former energy adviser to Foreign Secretary William Hague who last month described the north-east of England as a "desolate" region with "plenty of room for fracking."

Still others took the PR battle directly to the generals, with half a dozen protesters fastening themselves to lobbying firm Bell Pottinger's front doors with superglue and lock-ons.

Note the bolded words. I have to say that I've seen flare blowbacks, burst high pressure pipes and the like. These, of course, were much bigger wellheads but out in Saudi Arabia there is plenty of room. Any one of those incidents would have devastated a village like Balcombe. If it is simply oil that is pumped there wont be a problem, but fracking involves fluid pressures which aren't used in the existing UK wells.
 

TheKnightWho

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Our rulers in Brussels are the reason perfectly good power stations are being shut down well before they should be.

Why am I somewhat sceptical of this? The UK has every right to opt-out of these agreements, and we chose not to. You only have the government to blame for that.
 

Johnuk123

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Why am I somewhat sceptical of this? The UK has every right to opt-out of these agreements, and we chose not to. You only have the government to blame for that.

Yes you're right, despite Cameron pretending to be Eurosceptic he's a committed Europhile. Other countries especially France and Italy do what's best for themselves, we on the other hand slavishly tow the line.
 

TheKnightWho

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Yes you're right, despite Cameron pretending to be Eurosceptic he's a committed Europhile. Other countries especially France and Italy do what's best for themselves, we on the other hand slavishly tow the line.

But that simply isn't true - France and Italy have committed to the same programmes. France simply has the advantage of having most of its power produced by nuclear instead of fossil fuels, and I don't know what you're talking about with regards to Italy. They're in the same position as us.

EDIT: I just checked, and we're one of the lowest producers of renewable energy with respect to our output in the EU at 3.2%, with only Malta being behind us. We also have one of the lowest targets, at 15%. I really don't see how we can suddenly turn around and blame the EU for this when the facts just don't bare up to it.

EDIT 2: Misread the graph the first time.
 
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Wyvern

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One factor I hadn't considered. It's all to do with gender identity

What is behind this fracking mania?

If you're a local protester, they call you a nimby; if you come from outside, they call you rent-a-mob. You can't win – and that's the point. The protests against fracking companies are proving so effective that the technique is likely to become inviable in the UK, and the corporate press is in full cry seeking to delegitimise them.

It would be better employed trying to determine why fracking is being used in the first place. Because it makes neither strategic nor political sense. The energy we need could be produced with so much less pain.

Compare the treatment of shale gas to the alternatives. Another source of the same product (methane) is biogas, produced by household waste, sewage and farm manure. The great majority is untapped. Capturing it is easy, uncontroversial and probably a lot more profitable than shale gas. According to the government, its exploitation could generate 35,000 jobs and £3bn a year.

But this requires changes to the way waste is handled, and in this respect and others the government has been unhelpful. While it has set up a special office to support the fracking industry, while the chancellor has announced a tax regime he calls "the most generous for shale in the world", biogas is left unmentioned and unburned. Who wants to make speeches about sewage when you can stride manfully around drilling rigs in a hard hat and a yellow jacket?

Or compare fracking to wind power. The government is introducing a special veto for local people to prevent the construction of wind turbines. Downing Street explains it as follows: "The prime minister feels that it is very important that local voters are taken into account when it comes to windfarms … if people don't want windfarms in their local areas they will be able to stop them."

Strangely, he does not feel it is important for their views on drilling rigs to be taken into account. The government's new planning guidance makes these developments almost impossible to refuse. Planners judging fracking applications are forbidden to consider alternatives to oil and gas. There will be "no standard minimum separation distance", which means that a fracking rig could be erected right next to your house. And they "should give great weight to the benefits of minerals extraction, including to the economy". If local voters don't like it, they can go to hell.

Wind turbines, unpopular as they sometimes are, are less intrusive than fracking operations, with their constant truck movements, their noise and dust, the gas flares lighting up the night sky, the hard standing required, the possibility, if well casings are fractured by the earth tremors fracking can cause, of contaminating the water supply. Wind turbines are built on high ground, far from most houses, but no such constraint applies to the distribution of fracking rigs.

And compare the government's help for fracking companies with its attempts to conserve the gas over whose supply it claims to fret. Poorly financed, poorly promoted, lacking political commitment, its Green Deal has so far been a shadow of the schemes it has replaced.

The prime minister fluently defends the fracking companies. Last week he maintained that "fracking has real potential to drive energy bills down". Rubbish. The government's projection for gas prices sees them rising (with wobbles) from 61p per therm in 2012 to 72p in 2018, where, it predicts, they will stay until 2030. Even the major fracking company here, Cuadrilla, admits that the impact of shale gas on energy bills will be "basically insignificant".

David Cameron claimed: "I would never sanction something that might ruin our landscapes and scenery. Shale gas pads are relatively small – about the size of a cricket pitch … The huge benefits of shale gas outweigh any very minor change to the landscape." What he omitted is that if shale gas is to provide a significant portion of our energy, thousands of these rigs will need to be built. One estimate suggests that replacing current North Sea gas production with fracking on land would require between 10,000 and 20,000 wells. Does he have any idea of what that will look like?

It seems to me that this is not about jobs. It's not about securing energy supplies. It's not even about the money. The government's enthusiasm for fracking arises from something it shares with politicians the world over: a macho fixation with extractive industries.

Wherever there are resources to be extracted, you can see this testeria at work. When large areas of sea are declared "no take zones", closed to commercial fishing, fish populations recover so swiftly that within a few years the spillover into surrounding waters more than compensates for the fishing area lost: the total catch rises, perhaps for ever. But the government now refuses to exclude fishing boats from anywhere, except the 0.01% of our territorial waters already declared off-limits. Every square metre of seabed must be scrubbed clean, even if it results in lower catches and the slow collapse of the fishing industry.

Extracting resources, like war, is the real deal: what politicians seem to consider a proper, manly pursuit. Conserving energy or using gas from waste or sustaining fish stocks are treated as the concerns of sissies and hippies: even if, in hard economic terms, they make more sense.


So we miss part of the story when we imagine it's just about the money. It's true that industrial lobbying often defeats a rational assessment of our options, especially, perhaps, when Lynton Crosby has the prime minister's ear. But cultural and psychological factors can be just as important. Supporting shale gas rather than the alternatives means strutting around with a stiff back and jutting jaw, meeting real men who do real, dirty things, shaking hands and slapping backs, talking about barrels and therms and rigs and wells and pipelines. It's about these weird, detached, calculating, soft-skinned people becoming, for a while, one of the boys.

Extraction is an ideology, gendered and gendering, pursued independently of economic purpose. As Cameron says, without shale gas "we could lose ground in the tough global race". It doesn't matter whether the race is worth running. It doesn't matter that it's a race towards mutually assured destruction, through manmade climate change. The point is that it's tough and a race. And that's all a politician needs to feel like a man.
 

Johnuk123

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But that simply isn't true - France and Italy have committed to the same programmes. France simply has the advantage of having most of its power produced by nuclear instead of fossil fuels, and I don't know what you're talking about with regards to Italy. They're in the same position as us.

EDIT: I just checked, and we're one of the lowest producers of renewable energy with respect to our output in the EU at 3.2%, with only Malta being behind us. We also have one of the lowest targets, at 15%. I really don't see how we can suddenly turn around and blame the EU for this when the facts just don't bare up to it.

EDIT 2: Misread the graph the first time.

When I mentioned that France and Italy do what they want I wasn't particularly thinking about energy.

I was thinking more along the lines of H&S, immigration and farming.
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One factor I hadn't considered. It's all to do with gender identity

What is behind this fracking mania?

That little piece is totally inaccurate and simply full of lies, a very typical piece of left wing propaganda - for instance -

Wind turbines are built on high ground, far from most houses,

Really ? you want to come to Fenland where I live which is sea level or below.

I have approximately 60 within less than a 10 miles radius of my house and some have houses very very close certainly not "far from most houses"
 

radamfi

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immigration

France and Italy have freedom of movement within the EU/EEA just like the UK, and they go one step further as they are signed up to the Schengen Agreement which means they don't have regular border controls between Schengen countries. Admittedly they are not so attractive to intra-EU immigrants because they aren't English speaking. As for immigration from outside the EU, that is totally up to the member state so the UK could (and has to a large extent) heavily restrict immigration from the rest of the world.
 

Wyvern

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That little piece is totally inaccurate and simply full of lies, a very typical piece of left wing propaganda

What does left wing have to do with it?:?
 

BlythPower

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It's surprising we're onto page three and no-one's mentioned George Osbourne's father-in-law. Lord Howell stands to make billions from fracking and Generous George has announced shed loads of tax cuts and other freebies from the tax payer for fracking companies. Nice. Cameron's bessie mate advisor is that Lynton Crosby who also has links to fracking (as well as to tobacco and alcohol companies). But Dave assures us that Lynton has no influence on government policy... Not even the odious Blair and Mandelson at their grasping worst would have dared trying on a scam like this... <D
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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How much is the price of water going to be jacked up by when/if fracking starts using lots of it?

Are we talking about the water that is fit for human consumption that has passed all the stringent tests or water abstraction from boreholes or rivers for industrial purposes usage ? Come what may, it will be yet another as yet untapped market for the water companies.
 

Wyvern

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Isnt the Sussex area already short of water? I guess they could do what did in Saudi and use sea water.
 

TheKnightWho

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When I mentioned that France and Italy do what they want I wasn't particularly thinking about energy.

I was thinking more along the lines of H&S, immigration and farming.

None of which are any more restrictive on us than on them? Please tell me you actually don't believe that stuff you read about the EU in the tabloids.

You do realise that Dacre, Murdoch et al. have enormous amounts of money to make from us leaving too, right? (And also in the short-term from generating outrage to sell papers.)
 

Pumbaa

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I thought that Wytch Farm was an oilfield? (ie doesn't use the 'fracking' process)

Oil fields all over the world use some form of hydraulic fracturing as an aid to secondary recovery. It is certainly not new. It is interesting to see such a non-standard industrial term being used to describe exactly that. There is a significant difference in scale between the two operations though.
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Would the salinity of sea water have any detrimental effect on the machinery or the process underground ?

Yes - various problems. Saudi has a particularly extensive desalinisation complex and network; approx 1/4 of the gas they produce goes to powering this. You certainly can't put salt water in willy nilly. Machinery can be extensively (read - expensively) protected against salt water; the real damage actually occurs within the strata and the pockets of gas and oil. An illuminating example (if anyone ever wants to read up) is Iraq following the second invasion. Starved of necessary engineering bits during the sanctions, they'd been mothballing and attempting to stretch a yard a mile with what they had, but unwittingly slowly poisoned their fields with salt water. Invasion and 'liberation' came, oil jockeys raced to the scene and opened the spigots, essentially drawing the salt water right to the top of the pile and ruining pretty much everything. As a result, millions of barrels left underground that are completely contaminated. It won't be economic to rescue them till oil gets towards $300/bl (BP Internal Energy Review, 2009). But anyway, I digress.

The other problem with water is the rapid depletion of fresh supplies. If you understand the subsurface well enough, it is more than possible to engineer polluted 'frack' water and fresh water to remain far apart. You simply have to avoid running your fresh supplies. Nothing I have seen so far convinces me that that can be the case, unless of course you whack on an extensive treatment plant onto the complex and attempt to continually recycle a fixed pool of water. Sadly, such examples are still fraught with difficulty (Athabasca/Hudson Bays are prime examples).
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I find it very interesting watching this debate. It seems particularly tame to be honest, compared to other arenas.

I see nothing wrong with 'fracking' per se. But there needs to be sufficient and stringent law, regulation and observation to make sure the process is carried out safely and securely. The science is well understood; what may vary is the quality of information of the subsurface. And that is where problems may arise, and why I feel we need the aforementioned regulation. To my eyes, there is no such satisfactory regulation anyway in the world currently. The processes and this sector are very different to previous energy sources. The same companies may be pursuing them but it is new territory for them too.

I have no doubt that my fellow geoscientists, engineers and geochemists can safely and securely carry out the process if left to their own devices. But that isn't the case. As long as there is a profit motive, and a need and expediency for the product, corners will be cut, pressure will be applied and the science will fail to be safe. We have seen it time and time again; gas, oil; fracking - it makes no difference. That is why I currently oppose 'fracking' of any nature, anywhere in the world. But tighten up the regulation and make it watertight, properly legislate and things would be a lot better.

And besides, I think any further reliance on finite energy sources is utterly bonkers. The UK should not be meddling with pithy quantities of shale gas; we should be piling all this money into renewables. And fast.
 
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Oswyntail

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... properly legislate and things would be a lot better.

And besides, I think any further reliance on finite energy sources is utterly bonkers. The UK should not be meddling with pithy quantities of shale gas; we should be piling all this money into renewables. And fast.
Thank you for a sensible, informed and balanced reply. I, too, think regulation is part of the key. The arguments about safety blur the line between unsafe past practice and inherent safety.
What I would like to know on the renewables debate is where the balance lies. If we stopped using fossils today we would be sunk; I suspect that if we "dashed" to instal enough wind and solar generators, we would turn the whole island over into an energy farm - and still be sunk. All the arguments about what is best and efficient are beginning to turn this into a Thameslink 2000 saga. So what are our proven, viable options for renewable energy, and how soon can they be implemented so as to reduce our demand for fossil?
 

Wyvern

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It's just such a shame that our trust in our politicians and overseeing agencies seems to be lower now than it has ever been.
 

radamfi

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I suspect that if we "dashed" to instal enough wind and solar generators, we would turn the whole island over into an energy farm - and still be sunk.

Germany have already got about 25% of their energy from renewables in a short amount of time. Their climate is not particularly sunny and they have less coastline than the UK.

Norway already produce more hydroelectricity than they need and so they are building a cable to supply Germany. If Norway, Switzerland and Scotland really ramped up their hydroelectricity then there could be awesome potential for powering Europe from these locations. Iceland has of course enormous potential for geothermal so a cable from Iceland to Scotland would be another huge source.
 

TheKnightWho

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Iceland has of course enormous potential for geothermal so a cable from Iceland to Scotland would be another huge source.

But then you'll have them banging on about how we aren't reliant on our own energy sources, and that we're depriving the good British people of British jobs!

You can't win. :roll:
 

Jonny

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Back on fracking, wasn't the concern that a site near Blackpool (Fylde-Lancashire) had possibly caused an earthquake (they've had another one since, not due to fracking).

Somehow, I can see Scotland sneaking a yes to independence* and then England will have to frack for her life...

*based on scenarios such as most people who would vote no don't bother to vote combined with a large yes turnout.
 

Trog

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Germany have already got about 25% of their energy from renewables in a short amount of time. Their climate is not particularly sunny and they have less coastline than the UK.

The Germans had a problem with their solar generation earlier in the summer, when so much solar power was being generated that their electric companies are legally forced to buy at more than it is worth. That there was more electricity available than the demand, and the power companies could not resell at any price the power they were being forced to buy.
 

Wyvern

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Fracking suddenly has relevance to a railway forum inthe worst possible way, as investigators in Canada are wondering if the fracked crude in the tankers that exploded a few weeks nay have been part of the causation.

Fracking Oil: Like Normal Oil, But Just A Bit More Highly Explosive?

In a letter penned to the American Petroleum Institute, the [U.S. Federal Rail Administration (FRA)] addresses concerns related to chemicals in crude oil, citing damage to rail trucks and safety concerns.

“FRA’s review of the OTMA data also indicates an increasing number of incidents involving damage to tank cars in crude oil service in the form of severe corrosion of the internal surface of the tank, manways covers, and valves and fitting,” the letter states. “A possible cause is contamination of the crude oil by materials used in the fracturing process that are corrosive to the tank car and service equipment.”

This article does contain a lot of information that may be seen as more than mere scaremongering.
 
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