Fracking

[MidnightFlyer]

It's all kicked off in Balcombe to say the least...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-23738697

Anti-fracking protesters have continued to gather at a camp in West Sussex where test drilling for oil is taking place.

Hundreds of people have arrived at the No Dash for Gas camp, which is in its second day, with about 1,000 expected by both organisers and police.

Energy firm Cuadrilla is looking for oil near Balcombe but has not ruled out using fracking to extract shale gas.

Cuadrilla has scaled back its test drilling during the camp.

However, its chief executive Francis Egan said drilling would continue at the site as soon as it was safe to do so.

On Saturday, BBC correspondent Mark Norman said about 200 people were camping at the first protest site, which had been there since 25 July.

He said a further 200 were at a protest camp set up by No Dash for Gas with more people arriving by the hour.

He said: "Today, the camp is very much like a festival with workshops, a legal tent, and a welcome tent, and a kitchen serving up pasta.

"People are setting up their tents. It is a settling-in type of day. The whole camp is powered by solar panels.

"Tomorrow, there will be a bit more direct action and some training."

He said protesters were due to march from Balcombe to the Cuadrilla site south of the village on Sunday afternoon.

On Saturday, police arrested a man in connection with threats made to a local landowner who asked a group encamped on land close to the drilling site to leave.

The 23-year-old man was being held in custody on suspicion of a public order offence.

Sussex Police claims the protest has cost the force £730,000 so far.

Chemistry was never my strong point but fracking doesn't seem so awful to me - just about every project of this nature or process to get it comes with some form of risk attached and I think as a country we do need to start standing on our own feet when it comes to things like energy sourcing and stop being so reliant on foreign 'imports' - fracking sounds like a good way of getting the ball rolling.

The company in question do have the legal right to commence as and when it is safe to do so, and from what I've seen on news reports it strikes me as though a lot of the protesters are almost like an environmental rent-a-mob, a personal highlight was one woman stating 'The law to frack here is bad and I think bad laws should be broken'...

So, to any chemists (and others!) on here, is there any substantial risk with fracking, and also is it a decent and effective producer of energy or do the protesters have legitimate cause for concern?

 

[Bevan Price]

My first concern with fracking is number of additives they use in the water, some of which I would not like to get into ground water used for drinking. If they could devise a method that used only water, without additives, I would have fewer concerns.

Some of these additives are listed at:

http://fracfocus.org/chemical-use/what-chemicals-are-used

My second concern is the use of fracking in former mining areas. There must be hundreds of old mines. with poorly documented locations. If fracking caused damage to some of these, could there be sudden collapse of some of these old mine workings, leading to subsidence of land on which houses are built ?

 

[TheJRB]

Aside from the publicised issues about fracking (i.e. water contamination and potential for minor earthquakes), I see two more fundamental problems with the project.

Firstly, it's yet another non-sustainable source of energy. One day when all the fossil fuels have been depleted, we'll be wishing we spent this time doing more serious research into green energy creation, not just taking a short term relief.

Secondly, it's a democratic issue. David Cameron commanding that we lay down and let it happen does no good for him or the Conservative party in general. "Telling" people what to do just makes them want to do the opposite. Maybe he simply wants to be remembered as a decisive leader, but I doubt that's how most will see it.

The trouble is whilst some people desperately want fracking and some will try everything to stop it, most people feel indifferent about it and that is what will allow it to happen eventually.

 

[Eagle]

Wytch Farm in Dorset has been carrying out fracking since 1973. In all those 40 years there has never been any water contamination, or any of the other supposed problems that are being linked to it.

But who cares about evidence like that.

 

[Wyvern]

Some random thoughts:
One point that isnt often mentioned is the diversion of water from other uses. In Texas for instance it has led to drought for some farmers.
Where fracking has occurred at the existing wells in this country it has been a gradual process. It may be we are seeing too much too fast. I'd hate to see Mam Tor in Derbyshire finish up in Swadlincote (joke)
It seems pretty unarguable that it has caused massive distress in some parts of the world, but some places dont have the power of protest we have.
Its unlikely our protesters will prevent fracking - particularly not with the lobbying power of the oil companies within Parliament - but at least the frackers will have to watch what they are doing.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Wytch Farm in Dorset has been carrying out fracking since 1973. In all those 40 years there has never been any water contamination, or any of the other supposed problems that are being linked to it.

But who cares about evidence like that.

I thought that Wytch Farm was an oilfield? (ie doesn't use the 'fracking' process)

 

[Wyvern]

If its like the similar one in Nottinghamshire which has been around for about a hundred years it will have been fracked once or twice to keep it going.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am sure that those in the high echelons at Gazprom will be both amused and pleased at the attempts of British protesters to disrupt the Cuadrilla trial borings which, if eventually found to be successful in future large commercial gas production, could take away a future lucrative Gazprom export market for the wholesale supply of gas.

Incidentally, I note that one of the major partner connections with Cuadrilla is Riverstone Holdings LLC, a large energy and private equity company.

 

[WessexEclectic]

During the developement of the railways in the 19th century, anti-rail campaigners claimed that passengers would suffer asphyxiation due to the high speed of the trains. How times have changed...

 

[Wyvern]

THe difference is that those who fear fracking base their concerns on catastrophes that have actually happened.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

THe difference is that those who fear fracking base their concerns on catastrophes that have actually happened.

What was the largest of these catastrophes ?

 

[Wyvern]

I'm relying on various published accounts I've read which are what are concerning the protesters. To give you a definitive list I'd have to do some research, which I will do if you wish.

 

[Class172]

Personally I am not convinced with the concept of fracking, and I really don't see why, after being dependant on fossil fuels for the last century, we should be pushing to squeeze even more fossil fuels out of the ground; frankly, I can see greenhouse emission targets going out of the window. Whilst wind power has its problems, I think we should be investing in other forms of renewable power such as hydroelectric, geothermal, and next gen solar.

I was interested to see what chemicals were to be used in the fracking process — one particular chemical popped into my mind, ethylene glycol; I wasn't surprised when I saw it in the list multiple times. For those who don't know, it is not a particularly nice chemical. I also saw some other potentially bad chemicals if they escaped into the environment: boric acid, acetylaldehyde, formic acid — some chemicals in the right (or wrong) conditions could form ethyne (acetylene) gas, which is highly flammable and explosive, or gylol acohols, which are highly reactive and potential carcinogens.

I just hope there is no shale gas in Worcestershire; looking at geological maps, I think I might just be safe.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm relying on various published accounts I've read which are what are concerning the protesters. To give you a definitive list I'd have to do some research, which I will do if you wish.

No, just the largest one will do.

 

[Wyvern]

No, just the largest one will do.

Firstly, I should point out that I was answering WessexEclectic who compared the fears about fracking with nineteenth century fears about asphyxiation. Do you really think they are comparable?

Secondly, I should also point something out that I've discovered. The procedure used at Eakring, Beckingham and Wytch Farm was vertical fracking, which does not use large amounts of fluid and, unlike horizontal fracking, does not extend over a large area.

Thirdly, it is true that many of the incidents have been due to bad practice, but that does not invalidate the protesters concerns. All other industries, particularly mineral extraction, are subject to stringent controls which dont seem to be apparent with fracking. And I understand home insurance policies are being amended to exclude fracking caused subsidence.

However: America's Environmental Protection Agency has published at least one report:

The Environmental Protection Agency released a draft study Thursday tying the technique, formally called hydraulic fracturing, to high levels of chemicals found in ground water in the small town of Pavillion, Wyo. EPA scientists found high levels of benzene, a known carcinogen, and synthetic glycol and alcohol, commonly found in hydraulic fracturing fluid.

Have we heard from any equivalent British body?

According to New Yorkers against Fracking

Chesapeake Energy, which holds a tremendous amount of leases in New York State, has built up a long list of spills, disasters, blowouts, and violations across the country, while continuing to tout that fracking is safe . . . . .
Since fracking began in states outside of New York, there have been more than a thousand reports of water contamination. New studies link fracking-related activities to contaminated groundwater, air pollution, illness, death and reproductive problems in cows, horses and wildlife, and most recently human health problems. A recent study from the Colorado School of Public Health found that those living within a half-mile of a natural gas drilling site faced greater health risks than those who live farther away.

The only point I make is that the protesters are making sure that the oil company does not have everything its own way and needs to look after its housekeeping, since our politicians seem to be blinded by illusory dollar signs. I can go on if you like. although fracking does not directly concern me since it wont be closer than about fifteen miles and I have other things to exercise me.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the protestors can come in their many hundreds and carry out an officially stated "direct action walk" that they have given the police notice of, they should be expected to pay all the policing costs that will be needed to provide the necessary protection to all parties, as is the case with football and rugby clubs.

There is enough pressure on police resources in the peak holiday season and all extra police officers seconded to this protest will not be there in the areas where they should be carrying out their normal duties.

Of course, that fact will be conveniently ignored by the protesters.

 

[Wyvern]

In the end this what it will all be about.

I'm old enough now that it probably wont matter to me, so long as the next bank crash doesnt wipe out my pension. But I do have grandsons.

adbusters magazine/109 Pankaj Mishra, "From the Ruins of Empire"

"Much of the emerging world now stands to repeat, on an ominously larger scale, the West’s own tortured and often tragic experience of modern ‘development’.

As India and China rise with their consumerist middle classes in a world of finite energy resources, it is easy to imagine that this century will be ravaged by the kind of economic rivalries and military conflicts that made the last century so violent.

The hope that fuels the pursuit of endless economic growth – that billions of consumers in India and China will one day enjoy the lifestyles of Europeans and Americans – is as absurd and dangerous a fantasy as anything dreamt up by al-Qaeda. It condemns the global environment to early destruction, and looks set to create reservoirs of nihilistic rage and disappointment among hundreds of millions of have-nots – the bitter outcome of the universal triumph of Western modernity..."

 

[Johnuk123]

When oil was first discovered in the north sea the early so-called green lobby confidently declared that if oil was taken from below the sea bed then the sea would drain away.

I wouldn't believe anything a so-called green activist told me as they are the most misguided one-sided and biased bunch ever.

A lot of these professional state funded anarchists were the same ones at Dale Farm and we all know what a noble cause that was.

Anybody with any sense knows that nothing is without possible side effects.
But listening to those hysterical stupid women with blue faces ranting about earthquakes and fire coming out of peoples taps is childish rubbish.

 

[radamfi]

But I do have grandsons.

We don't care if our offspring, and their offspring suffer. We bring children into this world with full knowledge that the world is a bad place, but we do it anyway. If we really cared, we wouldn't have children in the first place.

 

[Wyvern]

Some of us hope to leave them a fit place to live in?

 

[radamfi]

Some of us hope to leave them a fit place to live in?

Has that ever seemed likely?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I note the rebuttals of the "think tank" agenda have not taken long to receive their media airings. Perhaps Sunday was a day where such rebuttals were later in forthcoming than had it been a weekday.

Does the term "think tank" suggest that thought is part of their process ?

 

[westcoaster]

The only good thing coming out of this is passenger numbers at balcombe will be well up, also never seen so many police on a station.

 

[mac]

I don't know if it's good or bad but I do know we need gas and oil. I do a lot of driving and always listen to the radio and last week listening to the protesters saying we should use wind solar and wave sounds good but I live near a wind farm and 50% of the time they don't turn. What I would like them to tell me is how much power do they generate when still and how much land we would have to take from food to power the country with them.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I'm relying on various published accounts I've read which are what are concerning the protesters. To give you a definitive list I'd have to do some research, which I will do if you wish.

Please do.
Also a note of who was responsible for the report so that bias can be taken into consideration vis a vis the conclusions.
Cheers
Jeff
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't know if it's good or bad but I do know we need gas and oil. I do a lot of driving and always listen to the radio and last week listening to the protesters saying we should use wind solar and wave sounds good but I live near a wind farm and 50% of the time they don't turn. What I would like them to tell me is how much power do they generate when still and how much land we would have to take from food to power the country with them.

And when the wind doesn't blow lots and lots of large diesel generators will be fired up!
Cheers
Jeff

 

[Johnuk123]

I don't know if it's good or bad but I do know we need gas and oil. I do a lot of driving and always listen to the radio and last week listening to the protesters saying we should use wind solar and wave sounds good but I live near a wind farm and 50% of the time they don't turn. What I would like them to tell me is how much power do they generate when still and how much land we would have to take from food to power the country with them.

50 sq. acres of fracking sites will produce more power than all the windmills put together even if they were whizzing round continually.

The worst thing about wind generators is when it's really windy they can't work then either because they'd break up.

I can see 12 from my house and I doubt if they work 50% of the time.

Our rulers in Brussels are the reason perfectly good power stations are being shut down well before they should be.

Germany by the way is opening a coal fired power station every 2 months this year.

 

[radamfi]

Surely a few hundred square miles of solar panels in places like California, middle of Spain, north Africa and the middle of Australia would generate enough power for the entire world? There are too many vested interests preventing that from happening.

 

[Oswyntail]

Surely a few hundred square miles of solar panels in places like California, middle of Spain, north Africa and the middle of Australia would generate enough power for the entire world? There are too many vested interests preventing that from happening.

There are a few hundred square miles of solar panels in such places, and they are proving a semi-reliable source of energy for a small town. Weak hoorahs all round.
I agree that we should be doing all we can to move away from our reliance on fossil fuels. However, at present:-

• Producers are promoting each new energy source as being "enough to satisfy our needs for n years", leading many to turn their back on teh problem and continue increasing road and air usage in the hope the problem will find a magic solution.
• The other side are as bad, pretending that their "renewables" solutions are mature and ready to cope with eventual demand. No, wind power is pathetic compared with demand, and solar is feeble; even the relatively mature hydro technology does not generate nearly enough. The only renewable source currently available that could produce enough is nuclear - and that is also opposed by the Green lobby.

These necessary first steps will not be taken in my lifetime:

• Get all sides to admit there is a problem that needs solving, working together to find a satisfactory approach
• Be prepared to jettison hobby-horses - if fracking and/or wind-power is not the answer, do not waste resources on trying to prove they are.
• Everyone must work to reduce their reliance on non-sustainable energy
• And, sadly, pigs must learn to fly.

 

[radamfi]

There are a few hundred square miles of solar panels in such places, and they are proving a semi-reliable source of energy for a small town. Weak hoorahs all round.

Where is there a place with more than 100 square miles of solar panels?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_land_area.png

Solar areas defined by the dark disks could provide more than the world's total primary energy demand (assuming a conversion efficiency of 8%). That is, all energy currently consumed, including heat, electricity, fossil fuels, etc., would be produced in the form of electricity by solar cells. The colors in the map show the local solar irradiance averaged over three years from 1991 to 1993 (24 hours a day) taking into account the cloud coverage available from weather satellites.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The populace of Britain can generally be counted upon to express indifference to many subject matters, but occasionally, a spark ignites a sense of "national outrage" amongst certain parts of the population, then you see examples such as:-
CND and the Aldermaston marches
The Greenham Common peace camp
The Poll Tax mass protests
The M3 motorway line through certain special areas
Both the anti-Fox Hunting protests...and the supporters of Fox Hunting.

It will be interesting to see how this "fracking" protest movement develops, as the Fylde area of Lancashire was one of the very first chosen trial drilling areas. Balcombe is a good representative area in the south of the country where one would have expected the current type of protest to occur which will see such unusual allied forces as the WI (if that is still their initials) and "green protesters" combining.

Perhaps I sense the opportunity for a major new script line in "The Archers" when fracking trials are said to be coming to Borchester, with Linda Snell expressing verbal outrage in a way that only she can....