Season Ticket - Cheshunt

[VauxhallandI]

Well it is season ticket renewal time and I thought I would do some due diligence before I bought the new one.

Cheshunt to London Liverpool Street - season ticket no LU.

£1,960

I walk to Bank from Liverpool St on arrival.

Whilst I do some Zone one, two action it is not extensive.

Do I have any other options open to me?

 

[kieron]

You could get a season ticket from either Theobald's Grove or Waltham Cross. Either costs £1728 and is valid via Cheshunt as it's less than 3 miles further than the shortest route. This would mean you couldn't catch a train which passes through the station named on the ticket without stopping.

 

[VauxhallandI]

You could get a season ticket from either Theobald's Grove or Waltham Cross. Either costs £1728 and is valid via Cheshunt as it's less than 3 miles further than the shortest route. This would mean you couldn't catch a train which passes through the station named on the ticket without stopping.

Nice idea ta but it would rule out the fast 21min services from Cheshunt Liverpool street. These are particularly useful sometimes.

I usually go in from Theobalds but return to Cheshunt on a Cambridge or Hertford East service. I then sometimes go back one stop to Theobalds if it is sat there.

 

[Be3G]

kieron's idea would still work with a ticket from Theobalds. It would allow travel down the Southbury loop in to London, or down the main line from Cheshunt. The only trains you wouldn't be able to catch with that ticket would be the few fast trains in the morning and evening peak that go via the Southbury loop without calling at any of its stations, taking about half an hour from Cheshunt.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Two questions on that ticket please:

1) would I still be able to travel via Stratford?

2) coming out of town would I be able to use a not stopping at Theobalds train as far as Seven Sisters?

Ta

 

[Be3G]

1) would I still be able to travel via Stratford?

Yes: trainscanbecheaper.info says it's still within three miles of the shortest route (which makes it automatically valid).

2) coming out of town would I be able to use a not stopping at Theobalds train as far as Seven Sisters?

Yes. I assume the reason you ask is so you can nip on the Victoria line to Tottenham Hale, but for what it's worth, you'd be able to stay on one of the non-stoppers until the final stop that's not beyond Theobalds, which would be Edmonton Green.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Yes: trainscanbecheaper.info says it's still within three miles of the shortest route (which makes it automatically valid).



Yes. I assume the reason you ask is so you can nip on the Victoria line to Tottenham Hale, but for what it's worth, you'd be able to stay on one of the non-stoppers until the final stop that's not beyond Theobalds, which would be Edmonton Green.

Sounds very tempting, last question...for now.

Would I end up getting grief from RPI's who don't know the rules? I imagine this is a fairly low complexity stray from normal tickets.

 

[Be3G]

I would hope not. I remember some years ago travelling home from London to Turkey Street, the paper timetable posters at Liverpool Street actually included journeys via Cheshunt, so hopefully the RPIs will be used to people doing a slight loop via Cheshunt.

Admittedly, I myself would be slightly nervous of showing such a ticket on a Cheshunt to Stratford train (as it doesn't call at either the origin or destination of the ticket*), but I would be confident of its validity. Hopefully the guard would be understanding.

* Well, except for the one a day that goes through Stratford to London.

 

[greatkingrat]

I think the problem will be trying to leave the station at Cheshunt. I very much doubt it will work the barriers, and you may have problems trying to persuade the gate staff that it is valid.

 

[maniacmartin]

This would mean you couldn't catch a train which passes through the station named on the ticket without stopping.

This isn't as clear cut as you make out. Some TOCs have been prepared to put it in writing that they would allow such a thing. The rules aren't clear at all here. It was discussed in previous threads without consensus.

However I don't suggest writing to GA about this as using the ticket via Cheshunt would be seen to be a loophole which could see the ticket withdrawn from sale sharpish

 

[VauxhallandI]

Thanks for the input folks.

So I need to find someone at GA who can put it in writing and carry it around with me hoping that the gate line man can understand and believe it?

Sounds rather over complicated!

 

[Be3G]

I believe Martin is talking about a slightly different issue: that of travelling on a train that goes through Theobalds without stopping there (i.e. the Southbury loop fasts). The issue of getting through the gate line at Cheshunt is different, and I'd suggest could easily be tested with perhaps a weekly season if you want to see how the staff react without committing to a yearly ticket. Barriers do sometimes let tickets through at an intermediate station so there's a possibility staff won't even need to get involved.

 

[maniacmartin]

Correct, I was referring to passing through Theobald's Grove non-stop, and my advice was not to contact GA in writing.

 

[kieron]

Yes: trainscanbecheaper.info says it's still within three miles of the shortest route (which makes it automatically valid).

Although bukitlawang.com says Stratford is 1 1/4 miles further from Tottenham Hale is the timetable than it is in the RJIS distances trainscanbecheaper uses.

Not to matter, as the web sites invariably use the RJIS distances anyway, so the "your web site says I can" argument is always there.

I believe Martin is talking about a slightly different issue: that of travelling on a train that goes through Theobalds without stopping there (i.e. the Southbury loop fasts).

Yes. I remember there being threads which discussed the issue, but I don't remember how the argument went.

The issue of getting through the gate line at Cheshunt is different, and I'd suggest could easily be tested with perhaps a weekly season if you want to see how the staff react without committing to a yearly ticket. Barriers do sometimes let tickets through at an intermediate station so there's a possibility staff won't even need to get involved.

There's no risk with buying an annual Theobald's Grove season to start with. If Johngill100 does encounter problems, and decides the best way to deal with them is to buy a different season ticket, he can change an annual ticket over to a Cheshunt one later on, paying no more than the difference in cost between the two annual season tickets.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Correct, I was referring to passing through Theobald's Grove non-stop, and my advice was not to contact GA in writing.

Yes sorry I read that wrong.

I'm concerned that the first time I am refused at Cheshunt I have to take a penalty and need to rectify the situation pronto and then GA shut the option down
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although bukitlawang.com says Stratford is 1 1/4 miles further from Tottenham Hale is the timetable than it is in the RJIS distances trainscanbecheaper uses.

Not to matter, as the web sites invariably use the RJIS distances anyway, so the "your web site says I can" argument is always there.



Stratford is within 3 miles of the shortest route via Hckney Downs? Both routes go via Tottenham Hale?

 

[John @ home]

Stratford is within 3 miles of the shortest route via Hckney Downs? Both routes go via Tottenham Hale?

The confusion arises because there are several sets of distances which the railway industry uses. All of them contain errors and omissions.

The National Routeing Guide, which forms part of the contract between the passenger and the railway companies because of Condition 13(a)(iii) of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, states "Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route" and "The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable" (NRT). Tables 5, 21 and 22 of the NRT show:

• 13.5 miles: Theobalds Grove - Seven Sisters - London Liverpool St.
• 15 miles: Theobalds Grove - Cheshunt - Clapton - London Liverpool St.
• 17.25 miles: Theobalds Grove - Cheshunt - Stratford - London Liverpool St.

By this measurement, journeys Theobalds Grove -London Liverpool St via Seven Sisters or Clapton are "following a permitted route", but those via Stratford do not qualify using this criterion.

Despite the instruction that "The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable", journey planners used by National Rail Enquiries and the ticket selling sites use a different set of data. This set has been made public under the government's open data initiative, and a member of this forum has kindly provided a calculator here which shows:

• 13.63 miles: Theobalds Grove - Seven Sisters - London Liverpool St.
• 14.95 miles: Theobalds Grove - Cheshunt - Clapton - London Liverpool St.
• 15.97 miles: Theobalds Grove - Cheshunt - Stratford - London Liverpool St.

By this measurement, journeys Theobalds Grove -London Liverpool St via Seven Sisters, Clapton or Stratford are indeed "following a permitted route".

 

[Be3G]

There's no risk with buying an annual Theobald's Grove season to start with. If Johngill100 does encounter problems, and decides the best way to deal with them is to buy a different season ticket, he can change an annual ticket over to a Cheshunt one later on, paying no more than the difference in cost between the two annual season tickets.

True, though from direct experience and reading here too, getting a changeover done can be more trouble than it should be!

 

[Paul Kelly]

journey planners used by National Rail Enquiries and the ticket selling sites use a different set of data. This set has been made public under the government's open data initiative

For what it's worth this is not strictly true. The mileage data forms part of the electronic version of the National Routeing Guide, which has not yet been publicly released. However, ATOC have provided a free sample of the data to a number of software developers, so it has found its way "out there".

 

[VauxhallandI]

Do you think it is worth me asking the gate line guy at Cheshunt if he is aware a Theobalds ticket is valid at Cheshunt before I purchase?

 

[bb21]

Do you think it is worth me asking the gate line guy at Cheshunt if he is aware a Theobalds ticket is valid at Cheshunt before I purchase?

No.

I can tell you what you will be told now.

 

[34D]

What you could do, is email GA asking if your Theobalds Grove-Liverpool St ticket is valid to go to Waltham Cross, and see how they respond to that

 

[VauxhallandI]

No.

I can tell you what you will be told now.

So I am entering a world of pain?

 

[jon0844]

You'd likely get different answers and be no better off, given you don't know who would be on duty another day.

 

[VauxhallandI]

You'd likely get different answers and be no better off, given you don't know who would be on duty another day.

What document would I have to carry to teach the rule to the gate staff?

 

[kieron]

So I am entering a world of pain?

I'd like to say you have nothing to worry about, but I just don't know.

If you search for "Theobalds Grove to Liverpool Street" on a ticket site, it will give 2tph on the direct stopper, and 2tph via the West Anglia line, changing at Cheshunt. This should mean that the staff on the Cambridge trains are used to people turning up with Theobalds Grove tickets.

The gateline at Cheshunt will either accept a Theobalds Grove season or reject it. You won't know for sure until you try it.

I would ask a gateline assistant whether he knows if the gate will accept a Theobalds Grove-London ticket. If it does, you'll have nothing to worry about. If he doesn't know, you'll just have to try it out once you have a ticket. If it doesn't work, you'll just have to show your ticket to an assistant every day until they reprogram it.

While you are boarding at an intermediate station on an obvious route between your origin and destination, there's a chance that a gateline assistant may not be familiar with this. I'd probably take a printout of a suggested itinerary between Theobalds Grove and Liverpool Street for the first few days just in case. The ticket office staff should have no trouble in confirming that your ticket is valid, but that would take longer.

There probably aren't more than a dozen gateline staff who work there, so your ticket would stop surprising anyone at all pretty quickly, if it ever does.

 

[paddington]

why not buy a 7 day season to test it out first?

 

[VauxhallandI]

why not buy a 7 day season to test it out first?

At a saving of £244, buying a monthly would eat in to that?

 

[Be3G]

The issue of getting through the gate line at Cheshunt […] could easily be tested with perhaps a weekly season if you want to see how the staff react without committing to a yearly ticket.

why not buy a 7 day season to test it out first?

At a saving of £244, buying a monthly would eat in to that?

Mine and paddington's suggestions were to try a weekly season, not a monthly. If you buy a weekly it's £43.20, whilst the equivalent weekly cost of an annual season is £33.14. So the extra cost for the experiment is only £10.06.

 

[kieron]

Mine and paddington's suggestions were to try a weekly season, not a monthly. If you buy a weekly it's £43.20, whilst the equivalent weekly cost of an annual season is £33.14. So the extra cost for the experiment is only £10.06.

An anytime return only costs £12.20, and should give plenty of chance to see what happens if you put a ticket in the gate. It's cheaper still with a gold card, but the gate could be set to reject discounted tickets.

I would definitely ask someone before spending any money, as a Theobalds Grove ticket may be something they're used to seeing in Cheshunt. And, who knows, they may even employ staff who know how to do their jobs.

 

[paddington]

An anytime return only costs £12.20, and should give plenty of chance to see what happens if you put a ticket in the gate. It's cheaper still with a gold card, but the gate could be set to reject discounted tickets.

I've had trouble before with singles and returns not working barriers at break of journey, where the season ticket would work, so just because an anytime return doesn't work may not mean that a season will or won't work.

Unless you plan to keep your job or home for an exact whole number of years, you're going to need to buy monthlies/weeklies at some point, so does it matter exactly when the renewal date is? (Yes I know you can get a refund for unused time etc etc)