Season Ticket - Cheshunt

[VauxhallandI]

Well on Friday the loan was made for the Theobalds ticket so come September 19th we will find out!
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I just spoke with the ticket office guy at Theobalds regarding his.

He was under the impression that because Theo and Cheshunt are now in different zones that the three mile rule no longer applied.

He is a good chap and he is going to talk to his ticket guys and speak to me tomorrow.

 

[MikeWh]

He was under the impression that because Theo and Cheshunt are now in different zones that the three mile rule no longer applied.

Hopefully he'll have the error of his ways pointed out, nicely of course. Southeastern tried to say that the 3-mile rule didn't apply between Slade Green (z6) and Dartford (outside zones). A passenger with a Slade Green to Denmark Hill season had her penalty fare quashed once ATOC said it was valid to start short at Dartford.

 

[Be3G]

I just spoke with the ticket office guy at Theobalds regarding his.

He was under the impression that because Theo and Cheshunt are now in different zones that the three mile rule no longer applied.

He is a good chap and he is going to talk to his ticket guys and speak to me tomorrow.

To be fair, I suppose he is partially correct. If you'd wanted a travelcard, whereas before you'd have had a Theobalds to London Zones 1–6 travelcard which would presumably be valid via Cheshunt, under the new system you'd be sold a simple zone 1–7 travelcard which would limit your travel to within those zones. This doesn't apply to you however as your ticket isn't zonal.

Actually, thinking about it, the ticket clerk at Theobalds should be applauded for even being familiar with the three-mile rule!

 

[VauxhallandI]

To be fair, I suppose he is partially correct. If you'd wanted a travelcard, whereas before you'd have had a Theobalds to London Zones 1–6 travelcard which would presumably be valid via Cheshunt, under the new system you'd be sold a simple zone 1–7 travelcard which would limit your travel to within those zones. This doesn't apply to you however as your ticket isn't zonal.

Actually, thinking about it, the ticket clerk at Theobalds should be applauded for even being familiar with the three-mile rule!

I had to bring up the the three mile rule.

I am not buying a zonal ticket so the zones should be irrelevant

 

[jon0844]

What is the price difference for a zonal ticket/season over a 'traditional' one? Certainly for normal journeys from Cheshunt, as far as I can see, it's always cheaper to go on Oyster PAYG than buy normal paper tickets* - and you're even better off thanks to the daily cap.

But how does it work out for period tickets/seasons?

* Obviously I mean if you're heading into London and stay within the zones - not tickets to further destinations.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'm a point to point man

 

[OwlMan]

To be fair, I suppose he is partially correct. If you'd wanted a travelcard, whereas before you'd have had a Theobalds to London Zones 1–6 travelcard which would presumably be valid via Cheshunt, under the new system you'd be sold a simple zone 1–7 travelcard which would limit your travel to within those zones. This doesn't apply to you however as your ticket isn't zonal...........

No you would not; there is no such thing as a zone 1-7 travelcard available at National Rail stations
You would still be sold a Theobolds - Zone 1-6 travelcard.

 

[jon0844]

According to TfL there is;

£60.40 (7 day)
£232.00 (monthly)
£2,416 (annual)

There's a zone 1-8 and 1-9 Travelcard too.

What there doesn't appear to be is one to the stations outside the zones, where they're special lettered zones (e.g. whatever Broxbourne is - as it isn't zone 8 or 9).

 

[OwlMan]

According to TfL there is;

£60.40 (7 day)
£232.00 (monthly)
£2,416 (annual)

There's a zone 1-8 and 1-9 Travelcard too.

What there doesn't appear to be is one to the stations outside the zones, where they're special lettered zones (e.g. whatever Broxbourne is - as it isn't zone 8 or 9).

Yes, but these are not sold at National Rail stations if you buy a season ticket from Theobalds or Livepool Street (NR) you will get a Theobolds - Zone 1-6.

 

[jon0844]

Is there a price difference? I realise here that the OP only wants a ticket to London Terminals though.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Morning.

Ive just spoken with my ticket office man at Theobalds who has now the info that i can use the ticket to get to Theo via Cheshunt but i couldnt get off at Cheshunt.

What monster pack of paperwork am i going to have to lug about with me everyday in order to explain how railway tickets work to the people enforcing them?

I said as it is a season ticket i can get off anywhere en route. He said not in this case as i was going further out to Cheshunt

 

[maniacmartin]

Morning.

Ive just spoken with my ticket office man at Theobalds who has now the info that i can use the ticket to get to Theo via Cheshunt but i couldnt get off at Cheshunt.

What monster pack of paperwork am i going to have to lug about with me everyday in order to explain how railway tickets work to the people enforcing them?

I said as it is a season ticket i can get off anywhere en route. He said not in this case as i was going further out to Cheshunt

This is a misconception that Greater Anglia love to propagate (there is another similar GA thread on this). There are no break of journey restrictions on season tickets. As you already know, you are not going further out in the sense that you are not doubling back through the same station twice on one journey.

I think they're a bit worried that you've found a loophole and are trying to avoid it going public by inventing fictitious restrictions

 

[VauxhallandI]

I wouldn't even call it a loophole.

 

[Be3G]

Yes, but these are not sold at National Rail stations if you buy a season ticket from Theobalds or Livepool Street (NR) you will get a Theobolds - Zone 1-6.

In that case, that creates an interesting anomaly, as a TEO to 1–6 travelcard season is exactly the same price as a 1–7 season, but doesn't have equal validity.

Morning.

Ive just spoken with my ticket office man at Theobalds who has now the info that i can use the ticket to get to Theo via Cheshunt but i couldnt get off at Cheshunt.

What monster pack of paperwork am i going to have to lug about with me everyday in order to explain how railway tickets work to the people enforcing them?

I said as it is a season ticket i can get off anywhere en route. He said not in this case as i was going further out to Cheshunt

I'd say you need four pages of documentation in particular:

• NRCoC conditions 13, 16 and 30 (pages 10, 11 and 16);
• The National Routeing Guide in Detail, page 9 (it unequivocally states the three mile rule at the bottom of the page).

 

[Paul Kelly]

It is an anomaly in a way, because (and there are other cases on London) the pricing is based on the London zonal system, but the permitted routes for the ticket pay no heed to the zonal system. Many TOC staff are uncomfortable with this situation. But that is not the customer's fault!

If they accept that it's valid via Cheshunt, then all you really need for proof is NRCoC Condition 16

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket.

The obvious rhetorical question to ask them is whether your season ticket is one of the special "types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited". To be fair I wouldn't put it past them to say yes to that one though...

 

[VauxhallandI]

It is an anomaly in a way, because (and there are other cases on London) the pricing is based on the London zonal system, but the permitted routes for the ticket pay no heed to the zonal system. Many TOC staff are uncomfortable with this situation. But that is not the customer's fault!

If they accept that it's valid via Cheshunt, then all you really need for proof is NRCoC Condition 16


The obvious rhetorical question to ask them is whether your season ticket is one of the special "types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited". To be fair I wouldn't put it past them to say yes to that one though...

Would they not have to openly list the exceptions?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Not really sure what you mean; there's no way a season ticket would ever fall into or intended to be fall into that category. A point-to-point season ticket allows unlimited journeys between all stations on all permitted routes between origin and destination. Quite a different proposition from a zonal season ticket, which allows unlimited travel within the specified zones.

What I was saying is that ticketing knowledge is so poor amongst certain train company staff, that it is unfortunately not uncommon to come across absurd excuses for a ticket being supposedly invalid, when a staff member is trying to cover up their own lack of knowledge and/or poor training. So you do indeed need to be prepared. Condition 58 might also be useful in these circumstances:

Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents
A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Not really sure what you mean; there's no way a season ticket would ever fall into or intended to be fall into that category. A point-to-point season ticket allows unlimited journeys between all stations on all permitted routes between origin and destination. Quite a different proposition from a zonal season ticket, which allows unlimited travel within the specified zones.

What I was saying is that ticketing knowledge is so poor amongst certain train company staff, that it is unfortunately not uncommon to come across absurd excuses for a ticket being supposedly invalid, when a staff member is trying to cover up their own lack of knowledge and/or poor training. So you do indeed need to be prepared. Condition 58 might also be useful in these circumstances:

I have both documents printed and in a plastic wallet in my bag to carry around. I will also highlight Condition 58 thank you.

If I do come across someone who is unwilling to accept the printed word I guess I would be best to accept the penalty fare and claim it back? Or would they just try and prosecute me from the off?

 

[Be3G]

I have both documents printed and in a plastic wallet in my bag to carry around. I will also highlight Condition 58 thank you.

Thinking about it, in addition to my earlier list of documentation to print off, maybe it'd be worth carrying a few itineraries produced by the NRE website showing that travel is valid via Cheshunt on a Theobalds to London ticket. Doing so might be particularly useful if you want to travel via Stratford, as that probably does seem a bit odd to the uninitiated.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Thinking about it, in addition to my earlier list of documentation to print off, maybe it'd be worth carrying a few itineraries produced by the NRE website showing that travel is valid via Cheshunt on a Theobalds to London ticket. Doing so might be particularly useful if you want to travel via Stratford, as that probably does seem a bit odd to the uninitiated.

Idiot alert sorry. How do I produce the evidence on there? I can put Liv to Theo via Cheshunt but I don't get it

 

[IanD]

Idiot alert sorry. How do I produce the evidence on there? I can put Liv to Theo via Cheshunt but I don't get it

Does it have to be NRE Website?

RSH will do it.

From London Liverpool Street
To Theobolds Grove
Via Cheshunt

Timetables only
then show trains calling at Stratford

 

[VauxhallandI]

Ok so just had another chat with the chap at the Theo ticket office. He says he has been told i CAN "break" my journey at Cheshunt however i cannot "end" my journey at Cheshunt
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Ok so just had another chat with the chap at the Theo ticket office. He says he has been told i CAN "break" my journey at Cheshunt however i cannot "end" my journey at Cheshunt

On reading section 16 again what they say doesnt stack up. It says you can end a journey as long as you have a ticket that allows you to break your journey. They are saying i can break the journey so therefore by this paragraph i can end the journey?

 

[maniacmartin]

They really are getting desperate now! You can end your journey wherever you can break your journey with a season ticket.

 

[VauxhallandI]

They really are getting desperate now! You can end your journey wherever you can break your journey with a season ticket.

So if a break in a journey allows me to leave the station are they going to hang around all night to see if I complete my journey?

 

[jon0844]

Nice bit of overtime there. And can't you break a journey overnight (with a normal ticket)?

That means they'll need to stay for the first trains of the day too.

 

[IanD]

And can't you break a journey overnight (with a normal ticket)?

Technically, no.

Leaving railway premises to stay somewhere overnight and then continuing in the morning is not classed as a break of journey

 

[maniacmartin]

It depends on why you break overnight.

If its because you cannot reasonably make it to your destination because there are no trains then that is not Break of Journey.

If its because you want to go and do something near the break station for your own reasons then it is Break of Journey

 

[VauxhallandI]

Well the ticket was bought last night to avoid any queue. So today is day one! Wish me luck etc!

 

[Be3G]

Out of interest, how're you getting on with the new ticket?

 

[jon0844]

I hardly think he'd use his one phone call to let anyone on here know how he got on.