I think they knew it was a waste of money, but all those things were authorised by the Government to appease interests (MP's, etc) from the north, so that the Chunnel did not appear to be of value to the south only. That, and the emergence of low-cost airlines around the same time resulted in services to London only, and much less through freight trains than envisaged. On the brighter side, Eurostar has been successful, and the rebuilt St Pancras terminal is a stunner.
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Eurostar York to Paris proposals
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I think they knew it was a waste of money, but all those things were authorised by the Government to appease interests (MP's, etc) from the north, so that the Chunnel did not appear to be of value to the south only. That, and the emergence of low-cost airlines around the same time resulted in services to London only, and much less through freight trains than envisaged. On the brighter side, Eurostar has been successful, and the rebuilt St Pancras terminal is a stunner.
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MCR247
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Although there are too many international platforms and not enough domestic!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I have just chanced across this thread and was immediately reminded of the Manchester to Paris rail project that was the idea of Sir Edwin Watkin of the Great Central Railway in the the last years on the nineteenth century. "What Manchester does today...etc etc etc"
In a somewhat jovial frame of mind this bright early Saturday morning, noting that the city fathers of York were involved in the current proposals, it was not all that long ago that in the not-too-far removed settlement of Harrogate, their Chamber of Trade and Commerce floated a proposal for ex-London Underground units to be used in their area. I trust that the idea of this thread has not reached the more fertile and imaginative minds of some of their members who would envisage such a service running from Harrogate to Paris with specially converted pantograph-fitted ex-London Underground units running the service plus the benefits of OHLE equipment being installed on the York-Harrogate-Leeds line....
In a somewhat jovial frame of mind this bright early Saturday morning, noting that the city fathers of York were involved in the current proposals, it was not all that long ago that in the not-too-far removed settlement of Harrogate, their Chamber of Trade and Commerce floated a proposal for ex-London Underground units to be used in their area. I trust that the idea of this thread has not reached the more fertile and imaginative minds of some of their members who would envisage such a service running from Harrogate to Paris with specially converted pantograph-fitted ex-London Underground units running the service plus the benefits of OHLE equipment being installed on the York-Harrogate-Leeds line....
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brianthegiant
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Yes, some sort of West Midlands -Kent service would be quite interesting, especially if times could be scheduled to allow onward connection to Paris/Brussels trains changing at Ebbsfleet/Ashford (albeit with their limited E* services). Would avoid dragging luggage between Euston & St Pancras.
Thereby reducing Journey times from Midlands-Continent.
In addition to the aforementioned domestic demand.
Would this logically sit within ICWC or XC franchises?
Well that can be solved the same way it was done at Waterloo and St Pancras. If this was serious put up a 'border' at York station and keep it separate from the rest of the station.
Agreed. The other 'barrier' is existence of the low cost airline. A government which gave a fig for climate change would bar short flights where the train could achieve a 4 hour time between the same points.
Cheers for that info very interesting, sounded like one government spent the money building the trains then the next administration did not want to finance their operation,but as you say the present service is doing well lets hope the freight side also picks up in the future
JamesRowden
Established Member
Perhaps an Old Oak Common to Stratford International shuttle service would be the simpler and cheaper option. This would however require more train changes than the earlier suggestions.
It would be particularly useful for sporting events at the Olympic Park like West Ham football matches.
I do not know if there will be the required terminating capacity (which could be a siding).
WestCountry
Member
What, three international platforms is too many? If the DB services (or anything else for that matter) ever get started it'll be quite cramped in there... :roll:
I think it would be more accurate to state that St Pancras is too small to cope with demand for both international services and domestic services. As you can't take away more domestic platforms without causing serious issues to those services and neither can you take away international platforms with additional services coming in the next few years.
Agreed. The other 'barrier' is existence of the low cost airline. A government which gave a fig for climate change would bar short flights where the train could achieve a 4 hour time between the same points.
You have to separate the cost of flights from the length of a given route. Airlines such as EasyJet and Ryanair actually use very modern planes and fill them up, so that the energy consumption per person on their flights is relatively good. A NOL Eurostar running one quarter full north of Peterborough would not win any prizes. Four hours is too long a benchmark to advocate for train travel; for day return trips (essential for much business travel) that's unrealistically long by trains in many cases.
The sinners among flights are domestic flights within England. All these destinations are served by trains, and few air routes now offer day trip options since Flybe thinned out its services.
MCR247
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I'm pretty sure Eurostar have platforms 5-10...? And yes, it seems to me like its too much because from what I've seen, E* have quite long turnaround times at St Pancras because they always seem to be using all of the platforms!
And last I heard, DB were looking at terminating at Stratford since St Pancras uses UK signalling...
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I thought it was TVM430+KVB apart from a few signals around St Pancras which are traditional colour light (and still feature KVB protection in any case I thought)? In which case it seems a bit strange they wouldn't be able to run through to St Pancras unless DB are unwilling to drive on colour light at low speeds? In which case why on earth is that a problem!?
MCR247
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I'm sure I read it somewhere, but maybe I just remembered it wrong
its kvb the only part of hs1 that currently uses aws is Ashford international but the eurotunnel rescue locos have already been granted an exemption.
I think its very unlikely that DB would use Stratford because of the costs of opening the international side of the station
I think its very unlikely that DB would use Stratford because of the costs of opening the international side of the station
Manchester77
Established Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't southeastern have to foot some if not all the cost as they manage Stratford international
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I'd have thought that the financial responsibility for finishing off the international platforms would ultimately lie with the DfT/Her Majesty's Government, even if on paper it is filtered through any TOC.
Given the problems of not being part of Schengen, I could theoretically see Manchester Piccadilly being suitable for all the immigration gubbins that would go along with international services.
The two platforms (10 & 11 I believe) in the main trainshed either side of the travelators to P13/14 may have space for passport control etc, if a suitable business-case could be made and the aforementioned travelators could be relocated (perhaps the 'Down' to P12 and the 'Up' to P8&9). Platform and station-throat capacity for the main trainshed may well become available after the 'Northern Hub' work is complete.
Additionally from an economic perspective Manchester has for more chance of being able to sustain such a service than York. I'd imagine that only Birmingham; Manchester; Glasgow or Edinburgh; and possibly Cardiff will ever have the economic/cultural/political importance to support regular international services- and probably even then not sufficient to fill a full-length E* set.
One thing in favour of York (and Leeds) is that 373/3s have at least operated there in service, but that's really only a technicality I'd have thought. Given that a great big depot was built for the NoL sets at Longsight, it'd be an oversight of massive proportions* if the sets weren't built in-gauge to the routes they were planned to operate on!
* Then again, they built the damn things! :roll:
Manchester77
Established Member
If they were going to run from Piccadilly surely the new HS2 wing would be a good place as opposed to having to retrofit facilities into the existing terminal in the middle of the station. The other issue with 10 & 11 is that you have both the travelator as well as the left luggage office and northern rails little desk thing. If you wait until Hs2 you wouldn't have to worry about platform length or trying to fit expensive customs equipment to the middle of Piccadilly
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I didn't address this as I didn't want to ramble too much, but I'd say that the cities I listed could be considered 'major' European cities on a par with say Cologne, Lyon, Barcelona or Antwerp- not capitals, but major commercial/political/tourist destinations.
This is true, and indeed the concept of using 10 & 11 is rather outdated as a result. Not to mention that the plan to serve Manchester with the NoL sets predates the rebuilding of Piccadilly and the construction of the travelator ramp.
I was merely offering Manchester as a more likely prospect (all things being equal) than York- for both the relative ease of adapting the station and the fact that as a bigger regional 'hub' and population centre it would likely attract more users both inbound and outbound.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Agreed. The other 'barrier' is existence of the low cost airline. A government which gave a fig for climate change would bar short flights where the train could achieve a 4 hour time between the same points.
But how far does four hours between London and the rest of Europe get you?
All of this about how London and the South East's population can only support a limited number of trains a day to... what is it, two major destinations?
Has anybody considered that more European destinations (and more services out of St Pancras!) might mean more passengers? And changing at St Pancras is OK if you arrive on the MML or the ECML, but the WCML (and others! Look at the GWML's gap for Wales - Europe passengers!) is rubbish for interchange.
I appreciate that the data says that its not currently viable, but we won't know nobody wants a Manchester/West Midlands - Various Mainland Destinations service until a decent one is provided.
HS2 seems like the perfect opportunity to look at this, because I really don't think plonking a customs terminal in the middle of Manchester Piccadilly - or anywhere else for that matter - is going to work. If people are still dragging their suitcases down Euston Road in 25 years time :roll: Typical UK?
And, yes, I appreciate its only a tiny percentage of the UK air passenger market... but why are we banging on about lack of airport capacity but still allowing domestic flights to/from London!?
Has anybody considered that more European destinations (and more services out of St Pancras!) might mean more passengers? And changing at St Pancras is OK if you arrive on the MML or the ECML, but the WCML (and others! Look at the GWML's gap for Wales - Europe passengers!) is rubbish for interchange.
I appreciate that the data says that its not currently viable, but we won't know nobody wants a Manchester/West Midlands - Various Mainland Destinations service until a decent one is provided.
HS2 seems like the perfect opportunity to look at this, because I really don't think plonking a customs terminal in the middle of Manchester Piccadilly - or anywhere else for that matter - is going to work. If people are still dragging their suitcases down Euston Road in 25 years time :roll: Typical UK?
And, yes, I appreciate its only a tiny percentage of the UK air passenger market... but why are we banging on about lack of airport capacity but still allowing domestic flights to/from London!?
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flymo
Established Member
Incidentally there were around 20 million domestic passenger journeys done by air in the UK in 2012. Of these, the most was between Heathrow and Edinburgh with around 1.25 million passenger journeys. Heathrow to Glasgow was next with around 830,000 in 2012. Put these 2 together then around 10% of all domestic journeys in the UK by air were between Heathrow and the two principle cities in Scotland.
If you suddenly put an extra 2 million passengers on the trains between these two pairs, say KX - Edinburgh and Euston to Glasgow and add to this the 800,000 passengers flying from Heathrow to Manchester and around 500,000 from Heathrow to Newcastle onto the WCML and ECML respectively then that is a whole load of extra passengers that the railways would have to carry. This is not to mention Gatwick to Glasgow (600,000) and Heathrow to Aberdeen (660,000) plus others then you must be talking about 5 to 6 million extra passengers that would need to be accommodated on the WCML and ECML.
Domestic flights are a necessity in the UK, despite what the Government and others may think. After hearing so many stories about already overcrowded trains then what are the alternatives???
Source for the figures : http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/2012Annual/Table_12_2_Dom_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2012.pdf from this page. http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=3&fld=2012Annual
Regarding York to Paris, the nearest airport (Leeds/Bradford???) saw around 64,000 passengers to Paris whilst Manchester saw around 480,000 passengers to Paris. Do Eurostar publish passenger statistics for a fairer comparison??
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Closely followed by Finningley and Humberside?
Best not let on that york doesn't have its own airport, as this guy will want to build one.
I'd reckon it makes for about 12-15 ECML and 8-12 WCML trains (possiby more- there's Stansted & Luton to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Prestwick as well. And flights from City, though that's not very many people. They'd all want 1st class however)
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Skyscanner says there's 45 flights from Edinburgh to all (six- includes Southend) London airports, 26 from Glasgow (and none currently from Prestwick).
Other direction, it's 39 and 25, oddly. Earliest arrival times from Edinburgh:
0750 (Gatwick), 0805 (Heathrow), 0830 (Luton), 0830 (City).
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Any from the absurdly-named 'London Oxford Airport'?
With potential numbers like this we really need HS2 all the way to the Central Belt, right from the get-go!
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Amsterdam, Cologne (for instance) (or it will do).
See:
http://www.bahn.com/i/view/GBR/en/about/overview/ice-in-london.shtml
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That's why were are building HS2 I thought. There is no 'necessity' for internal flights for the duration, only no present suitable alternative.
flymo
Established Member
Hence the 'necessity' for internal flights to move people around.
it seems that there were, but these ceased at the start of this month, having only been running since March!Any from the absurdly-named 'London Oxford Airport'?
With potential numbers like this we really need HS2 all the way to the Central Belt, right from the get-go!
Indeed. With faster journey times and interchange with the primary long-haul hub at Heathrow, if we had HS2 all the way there would be strong environmental grounds for halting Edinburgh/Glasgow to London flights (at the expense of some competition; competition would remain in place from the slower ECML and WCML, also even slower coaches)
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