Eurostar York to Paris proposals

[woolwinder]

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10608283._/

Hope for direct Eurostar link from York to Paris

TRAINS could run directly from York to France under new plans being explored by city bosses.

City of York Council leader James Alexander has held talks with his counterparts along the East Coast Main Line, with a view to creating a direct link.

Coun Alexander confirmed he and other council leaders want to ensure the Main Line’s new franchise would allow for Eurostar or other international rail firms to ultimately use the line.

He said plans were “a long-term aspiration” and at an early stage but said Eurostar links would bring massive economic benefits and could lead to international investment in the York Central site.

A York-Paris journey would take about four and-a-half hours using the current East Coast Main Line (ECML), and about four hours using planned HS2 links to Eurostar lines through St Pancras station....

The article states the York City council and other ECML councils are proposing this old chestnut again. So with the NOL sets still rumbling around somewhere in france. Is this a reality or just wishful thinking?

 

[MCR247]

Even if we had NOL sets it would still be wishful thinking

 

[dk1]

Yeah right. Dreaming again.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Through trains would have to reverse in St Pancras.
The passengers would have to get off and go through immigration/security.
Might as well use EC/ES as now.
Have the WCML/ECML (North London Incline) connections into St Pancras ever been used by passenger services?

 

[woolwinder]

No, there is a now a cord allowing sets to go from the EMCL directly onto the HS1 as Stratford international would be used as the London connecting station of Paris services

 

[glbotu]

The article says the intention is to run York - Paris via HS2 (which is indeed a long term aspiration). Travelling along the southern ECML fairly regularly (and HS1 fairly recently), I can assure you there are no ECML - HS1 chords that exist (not to St Pancras International.

 

[pablo]

......... I can assure you there are no ECML - HS1 chords that exist (not to St Pancras International.

Are you sure?

 

[Welshman]

Are you sure?

Sorry - but the only EC route I can see there is the normal main line through Copenhagen and Gas Works tunnels to Kings Cross, and the connection into St Pancras via the North London Incline.

Were EC services to go that way, they'd still have to reverse in St Pancras, as stated earlier.

 

[Comstock]

Is the WCML already linked to the CTRL? If so, why no direct services from Manchester or Birmingham?

 

[jopsuk]

The primary barrier to direct services is the UK not being in the Schengen zone. It always has been. The current governemtn is unlikely to relax UK border controls; the same goes for any realistic future government (as things stand).

 

[paul1609]

The primary barrier to direct services is the UK not being in the Schengen zone. It always has been. The current governemtn is unlikely to relax UK border controls; the same goes for any realistic future government (as things stand).

Personally Id say that the primary barrier is the lack of sufficient market for any through service from North Of London to Europe. I dont expect that to change significantly post HS2.

 

[MCR247]

The only way we will ever have regular through trains to Paris from Birmingham, Manchester, York etc is if we become part of the Schengen zone and therefore we can have service that go York - London - Paris, on which passengers can make journeys for London - York and London - Paris as well as York - Paris. So basically joining a Eurostar service to a ECML/WCML service

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the WCML already linked to the CTRL? If so, why no direct services from Manchester or Birmingham?

There's nothing to stop a direct WCML-Kent domestic service running onto HS1 via the existing North London Line links outside St Pancras.
A Class 395 should be able to do it without modification (although not formally cleared on the WCML).
The only compatibility problem might be the WCML OHLE (lower tension than HS1).

 

[Qwerty133]

There's nothing to stop a direct WCML-Kent domestic service running onto HS1 via the existing North London Line links outside St Pancras.
A Class 395 should be able to do it without modification (although not formally cleared on the WCML).
The only compatibility problem might be the WCML OHLE (lower tension than HS1).

and that 395s would be limited to 110mph on the WCML as they don't tilt.

 

[D6975]

Are you sure?

The ECML - St Pancras connection is there, but I don't think it's been put into use yet. I'm not 100% sure that all the track has even been laid yet, but the necessary tunnels, bridges etc are definitely all in place.

 

[Class377/5]

The ECML - St Pancras connection is there, but I don't think it's been put into use yet. I'm not 100% sure that all the track has even been laid yet, but the necessary tunnels, bridges etc are definitely all in place.

ECML to St Pancras low level has been there since about 2006. Currently being fitted out for Thameslink and will be for class 700 stock only as it will be ATO once your in the tunnel section.

The only way to get off ECML to HS1 is via St Pancras.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Quiet news day in York.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The article says the intention is to run York - Paris via HS2 (which is indeed a long term aspiration). Travelling along the southern ECML fairly regularly (and HS1 fairly recently), I can assure you there are no ECML - HS1 chords that exist (not to St Pancras International.

The current Bakers atlas shows a route from the ECML to HS1 via York Way North Junction and Silo Curve Junction. The route is shown as disused but there's nothing to suggest that the track isn't in place.

 

[paul1609]

The only way we will ever have regular through trains to Paris from Birmingham, Manchester, York etc is if we become part of the Schengen zone and therefore we can have service that go York - London - Paris, on which passengers can make journeys for London - York and London - Paris as well as York - Paris. So basically joining a Eurostar service to a ECML/WCML service

Thats great in theory but in practise it requires a very complicated train that can run on several different systems. This makes the train very expensive to build and maintain. It also means that the London services are split to arrive at more than one terminal.
The change trains in London option is always likely to be a better economic prospect. i can make a ECML departure with in under 10 mins of arrival of a HS1 service.

 

[philjo]

The current Bakers atlas shows a route from the ECML to HS1 via York Way North Junction and Silo Curve Junction. The route is shown as disused but there's nothing to suggest that the track isn't in place.

I have seen that track when going up the KX incline though I recall the rails were rusty. I'll try to look on Saturday - I'm on the UKR charter that will be using the incline, so hopefully I'll be sitting on the right side!

 

[MCR247]

Thats great in theory but in practise it requires a very complicated train that can run on several different systems. This makes the train very expensive to build and maintain. It also means that the London services are split to arrive at more than one terminal.
The change trains in London option is always likely to be a better economic prospect. i can make a ECML departure with in under 10 mins of arrival of a HS1 service.

Oh yes I am aware it is very complicated, that was my point. I was saying that it there really just isn't demand for York - Paris passengers to warrant a "direct" train

 

[Comstock]

Oh yes I am aware it is very complicated, that was my point. I was saying that it there really just isn't demand for York - Paris passengers to warrant a "direct" train

Oh agreed. But there might be enough demand for Birmingham- Paris, Manchester-Paris, maybe a couple of other places. Ideally those trains would bypass central London totally, but I'm not sure about the logistics of that.

 

[cle]

Oh agreed. But there might be enough demand for Birmingham- Paris, Manchester-Paris, maybe a couple of other places. Ideally those trains would bypass central London totally, but I'm not sure about the logistics of that.

I doubt even that to be honest, if you look at total air passengers (and could subtract those connecting at CDG on Air France).

The only way it might be viable would be to also stop at some of OOC/Stratford/Ebbsfleet/Ashford - and enable London services to be non-stop.

 

[glbotu]

Sorry, my post may not have been clear. I am aware of the ability to go to St Pancras Intl. from the Copenhagen Tunnels, I probably should have said "(except to St Pancras)". I meant that the services would not run via any chord between HS1 and the ECML that didn't involve a reversal at St Pancras (unless you count a rather convoluted route via the Canonbury Curve, NLL, Channelsea Jn, Forest Gate Jn and Tilbury - the freight route, which would probably add 1hr onto the journey).

 

[Comstock]

The only way it might be viable would be to also stop at some of OOC/Stratford/Ebbsfleet/Ashford - and enable London services to be non-stop.

There might be a market, too, for Birmingham to Stratford direct. Although a lot of Birmingham to London journeys are aiming for tube zone 1, by no means all are. Someone going to Canary Wharf or to visit family in the East End would be glad of the chance to avoid central London. Straford might also be a better bet for someone being collected from the station by car.

Or indeed a market for Birmingham to Kent direct. Not sure how either of these would fit in with the need to have passport/security checks at Birmingham though

 

[Chris125]

The current Bakers atlas shows a route from the ECML to HS1 via York Way North Junction and Silo Curve Junction. The route is shown as disused but there's nothing to suggest that the track isn't in place.

You can see it here on google maps, along with what appears to be a connection to the MML.

Chris

 

[cle]

There might be a market, too, for Birmingham to Stratford direct. Although a lot of Birmingham to London journeys are aiming for tube zone 1, by no means all are. Someone going to Canary Wharf or to visit family in the East End would be glad of the chance to avoid central London. Straford might also be a better bet for someone being collected from the station by car.

Or indeed a market for Birmingham to Kent direct. Not sure how either of these would fit in with the need to have passport/security checks at Birmingham though

Agreed, I think there is possibly more demand for those journeys than for the Continent, which could have all sorts of purposes.

An hourly: Birmingham - Birmingham Int - OOC - Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford might be worth a try. Although at 140mph, the Javelins might hold up paths too much. HS stock might be overkill.

And the Continent demand couldn't sustain many trains, and demand would be split between Paris, Brussels, Disney and any future ones - so spread thin. Therefore better to change in St Pancras (or Ebbsfleet!)

 

[HowardGWR]

Agreed, I think there is possibly more demand for those journeys than for the Continent, which could have all sorts of purposes.

An hourly: Birmingham - Birmingham Int - OOC - Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford might be worth a try. Although at 140mph, the Javelins might hold up paths too much. HS stock might be overkill.

And the Continent demand couldn't sustain many trains, and demand would be split between Paris, Brussels, Disney and any future ones - so spread thin. Therefore better to change in St Pancras (or Ebbsfleet!)

I'm hearing this constant view but what do we know about travel from GB to the rest of the EU? How may pax boarding at St Pancras have an origin within 20 kms of that station?

Also, how many are flying from Brum, etc, because there is no through service?

 

[Carlisle]

The primary barrier to direct services is the UK not being in the Schengen zone. It always has been. The current governemtn is unlikely to relax UK border controls; the same goes for any realistic future government (as things stand).

Its a shame no one told the former BR management that 25 years ago before all that dosh was wasted on NOL eurostars ,sleeper stock ,Depot extensions at longsight and polmadie etc extra class 92s and a lot of track and electrification work around the north London line all for nothing ,not the railways finest hour i think sadly .

 

[paul1609]

I'm hearing this constant view but what do we know about travel from GB to the rest of the EU? How may pax boarding at St Pancras have an origin within 20 kms of that station?

Also, how many are flying from Brum, etc, because there is no through service?

Work it out for yourself, Compare the population of London and the South East which even with a huge inward tourist flow only supports roughly 17 direct trains a day to Paris with the population of any of the provincial cities. Whilst the likes of York and Edinburgh also attract inwards foreign tourist in by far the majority are also visiting London. Even ignoring any journey time gradient its impossible to make a case for through trains north of London.