MML Electrification

[Eagle]

Will that be running through to Brighton? Would help with St Pancras platforms.

Almost certainly not. It'll probably stay in the high level St Pancras (the same way as some GN fast services will stay at King's Cross).

 

[tbtc]

I know that a line has to be drawn somewhere, but surely the Erewash between Trent and Clay Cross should be electrified

I'm confident that it will be longer term (along with Sheffield - Moorthorpe/ Doncaster etc), but I honestly don't know if they'll even have the "basic" MML wired by the end of CP5 - deadlines look tight - so there are natural follow ones to announce in CP6.

Sheffield has always been a poor relation to neighbouring Doncaster in journey times to London

No argument there

London - York is generally faster than the fastest London - Sheffield time.

 

[joeykins82]

It won't be completed by the end of CP5 according to current plans.

Network Rail plans to upgrade and electrify the Midland Main Line between Bedford and Sheffield, subject to approval from the Office of Rail Regulation in October 2013. This investment would see more seats, quicker journeys and cleaner and quieter trains. Current plans are to electrify to Corby by 2017, to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham in 2019 and to Sheffield in 2020.

Source: Press release notes to editors #3

 

[snowball]

Is that NR page up to date? If I remember correctly Rail magazine claimed recently that MML would be accelerated for completion in 2019 and other electrification plans such as the spine would be decelerated to compensate.

 

[TheBigD]

Take out the Corby services (three units, plus a spare? - given them some EMUs) and I reckon it would - given the number of doubled up 222s (i.e. 4+4).

As a "back of the envelope" calculation, if you said that a round trip from London to Nottingham/ Sheffield took five hours, then twenty sets would cover the four services an hour with scope for peak extras/ maintenance.

Current off peak service needs...

STP-SHF fasts = 5 units (all services are 222/7car, except 0855/1127 which 2x222/5car)
STP-SHF semis fasts = 6 units (usually 222/5 car but 1 diagram a 4 car)
STP-NOT fasts = 5 units (usually a HST with long layovers at STP)
STP-NOT stopper = 5 units (usually 222/5 car but 1 diagram a 4 car)
STP-COR = 3 units (all off peak services are 222/5 car)

TOTAL = 24 units

Some peak services are doubled up 222's and some are HST's. There are variations on the service pattern at peak times, Corby requires an extra set in the evening peak due to longer turnround times at Corby (amongst other things).

Currently on the ECML the Mk4 sets cover 26 diagrams...

 

[Eagle]

Of course the 225s are considerably longer than most of EMT's current services. If they ended up shortened (to say 7 cars apiece) that's a lot of spare Mk4s needing a home.

 

[D365]

Current off peak service needs...

STP-SHF fasts = 5 units (all services are 222/7car, except 0855/1127 which 2x222/5car)
STP-SHF semis fasts = 6 units (usually 222/5 car but 1 diagram a 4 car)
STP-NOT fasts = 5 units (usually a HST with long layovers at STP)
STP-NOT stopper = 5 units (usually 222/5 car but 1 diagram a 4 car)
STP-COR = 3 units (all off peak services are 222/5 car)

TOTAL = 24 units

Some peak services are doubled up 222's and some are HST's. There are variations on the service pattern at peak times, Corby requires an extra set in the evening peak due to longer turnround times at Corby (amongst other things).

It has been suggested that when released from Thameslink, at least some of the '377/8s' (or alternatively a new EMU build) could handle shorter services such as STP-COR and STP-NOT stoppers. This might allow so slightly shorter IC225s to handle the longer-distance services, although that leaves a bunch of stray Mk4s as Eagle has pointed out. If turnaround times can be shortened and journey times improved (I hear that at full power a Meridian is supposed to accelerate as fast as an IC225) as well as reliability, more service can be gotten out of fewer sets.

Currently on the ECML the Mk4 sets cover 26 diagrams...

I read in "Eastern Electric" by John Glover that when built, 26 peak diagrams were required by the IC225s, but at privatisation, the refurbishment was needed to get 2 more out of them. This may have slackened a bit since with the additional HSTs running under-the-wires; unfortunately the book does feature a few factual errors, so I don't rely on it for the final word.

 

[AndyLandy]

Of course the 225s are considerably longer than most of EMT's current services. If they ended up shortened (to say 7 cars apiece) that's a lot of spare Mk4s needing a home.

Sadly not quite enough to cover the GE requirements though. That would have been too convenient!

 

[D365]

Sadly not quite enough to cover the GE requirements though. That would have been too convenient!

The Mk4s will still need DDA work, don't they? Do the GE Mk3s need replacing that urgently?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is that NR page up to date? If I remember correctly Rail magazine claimed recently that MML would be accelerated for completion in 2019 and other electrification plans such as the spine would be decelerated to compensate.

The ORR has asked for an accelerated schedule for MML electrification within the CP5 plans.
NR has yet to respond to this.

 

[DimTim]

Interesting document found when googling

Not sure if updated

http://nearyou.imeche.org/docs/Midl...lloquium-13-05-13-richard-walker.pdf?sfvrsn=0

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Of course the 225s are considerably longer than most of EMT's current services. If they ended up shortened (to say 7 cars apiece) that's a lot of spare Mk4s needing a home.

Shortening them might be a bit shortsighted since you could reasonably expect a healthy increase in passenger volume after electrification.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Shortening them might be a bit shortsighted since you could reasonably expect a healthy increase in passenger volume after electrification.

The good old "sparks effect"

 

[Martin222002]

In Network Rail's most resent Network Specification for the East Midlands / MML they state that once the electrification and other infurstructural works is completed that there would be an increase from the current 5tph to 6tph out of St Pancras.

I would assue that these will be made up of 2tph to Sheffield (1 fast/1 semi fast), 2tph to Nottingham (1 fast/1 semi fast), 1tph to Corby (stopping) and 1tph to Leicester/Notthingham/Derby.

The Network Specification, as other people have mentioned, suggests that the stopping services on the MML are going to be operated by 110mph outer suburban EMUs, possibly the 377/8s currently being procured for Thameslink, allowing 12 cars operation at peak.

I also agree that if the 225s / Mk4 sets were to operated on the MML that they should be kept to there current length, as the capacity will be required in the future, and definitely at peak if current loadings are anything to go by.

 

[Yew]

Interesting document found when googling

Not sure if updated

http://nearyou.imeche.org/docs/Midl...lloquium-13-05-13-richard-walker.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Interestingly, the background of the slides is a picture of the IEP...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In Rail 729 today, however, the MML boss is quoted as saying he wants brand new 125mph EMUs so that seems to suggest the Mk4s are not their first choice of traction...

 

[D365]

In Rail 729 today, however, the MML boss is quoted as saying he wants brand new 125mph EMUs so that seems to suggest the Mk4s are not their first choice of traction...

Not going to be much use without tilt, surely? Which boss is this?

 

[Eagle]

Not going to be much use without tilt, surely? Which boss is this?

Why not? The route's currently run with 125 mph stock, why shouldn't it continue with 125 mph stock?

 

[Martin222002]

Not going to be much use without tilt, surely? Which boss is this?

The MML is currently being upgraded for sections of 125mph running, along with other line speed improvements, the first of which come into operation from this Decembers timetable. However for significant stretches of 125mph running tilt would still be required for the MML due to its curvy nature.

 

[edwin_m]

Even if non-tilting, 125mph EMUs might be better able to make use of the increased line speed than HSTs/222s can, due to the better acceleration.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Not going to be much use without tilt, surely? Which boss is this?

The MD, David Horne.

Of course if it's all change at franchise award time...

 

[AndyLandy]

Even if non-tilting, 125mph EMUs might be better able to make use of the increased line speed than HSTs/222s can, due to the better acceleration.

The 222s are DEMUs, so acceleration will be about the same as for a 125mph EMU unit.

 

[edwin_m]

The 222s are DEMUs, so acceleration will be about the same as for a 125mph EMU unit.

If that is so, it has very little to do with the fact it has electric transmission rather than any other sort and mostly depends on the relationship of installed power to weight.

 

[59CosG95]

So if new EMU's are the order of the day on the MML when the knitting goes up, where will the displaced Meridians go? Hopefully the WoEML (West of England Main Line) but have low hopes that EMT will give SWT their trains...

 

[edwin_m]

I don't know that SWT would actually want them. Most WoE journeys split/join at Salisbury so use of a longer unit without end gangways would be a problem. As would the relative lack of seats compared with a 159 formation of the same length.

I would have thought XC Nottingham/Birmingham-Cardiff and Birmingham-Stansted would be a possibility. A longer train would generally not causes problems here (they have SDO) and the higher speed would be helpful between Derby and Cheltenham. Although they are not fully compatible with Voyagers there is some commonality and the engineering base could remain at Central Rivers. Only problem is they would show up how cramped the Voyager interior is for a train of the same basic design!

 

[Martin222002]

The 222s are DEMUs, so acceleration will be about the same as for a 125mph EMU unit.

Not entirely true. 222s, and the other 22Xs, are very quick of the mark but pay for it in poorer top end acceleration, when compared to a 390 for example. Also, as people have said, the fact that any replacement EMUs would weigh less will also give them a performance advantage.

 

[IanXC]

So if new EMU's are the order of the day on the MML when the knitting goes up, where will the displaced Meridians go?

Given the differences between Meridians and Voyagers I wouldn't give them to CrossCountry, given that they will potentially be getting EMUs for Manchester-South Coast, and that there is still a distinct possibility of the West Coast Voyagers being cascaded.

I've still not seen a better solution than sending the 222s to ScotRail. There is often talk in the Scottish Parliament about the "low quality" and low speed of intercity routes within Scotland, there would appear to be the political will to spend the extra on leasing to solve this, and it would enable the cascade of significant numbers of 2/3 car DMUs from SR's 156/158/170 fleets which would be very useful elsewhere on the network.

 

[Class377/5]

Interestingly, the background of the slides is a picture of the IEP...

Page 19 shows Manchester Victoria.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Given the differences between Meridians and Voyagers I wouldn't give them to CrossCountry, given that they will potentially be getting EMUs for Manchester-South Coast, and that there is still a distinct possibility of the West Coast Voyagers being cascaded.

I've still not seen a better solution than sending the 222s to ScotRail. There is often talk in the Scottish Parliament about the "low quality" and low speed of intercity routes within Scotland, there would appear to be the political will to spend the extra on leasing to solve this, and it would enable the cascade of significant numbers of 2/3 car DMUs from SR's 156/158/170 fleets which would be very useful elsewhere on the network.

That or sending them to GW to run the services to/from Devon and Cornwall instead of retaining and converting HST's to DDA compliance.

 

[HowardGWR]

That or sending them to GW to run the services to/from Devon and Cornwall instead of retaining and converting HST's to DDA compliance.

We have to remember that it is not in the gift of a TOC to 'send' its stock anywhere. Unless a new franchisee offers to take stock, or is told to by DfT. It's the DfT who are in the box seat on this and all the stock is owned by the ROSCOs (AFAIK).