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Speed on yellows/double yellows

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stanley T

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Questions for drivers here: full line speeds are signposted, but how do you know what speeds to run at on yellows and double yellows?

Is there a formula which says x% of full line speed, or do you have to learn it for each signal?
 
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A-driver

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Questions for drivers here: full line speeds are signposted, but how do you know what speeds to run at on yellows and double yellows?

Is there a formula which says x% of full line speed, or do you have to learn it for each signal?

No strict formula but its down to route knowledge. It depends how far away the next signal is, the traction, gradients etc.

Normally we are advised not to go above about 60 on a single yellow, 40 if south of Alexandra palace but that is no more than a guide. Most drivers on the approach to peterbourgh will routinely do about 90 past the single yellow at Fletton junction with no problem. Same on the up road approaching foxton station. Other places you know the signals are very close so would be very cautious on a yellow.

So as a simple answer you don't 'know' how fast to run on restrictive aspects, you use your route knowledge, experience and professional judgment to decide.
 

transmanche

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Hold back a bit then hopefully you'll be back on GREENS then :)
You've given me a thought. I guess it must be quite a challenge to drivers on certain congested routes, who might have to drive for quite a distance on double-yellows. I could well understand how cancelling the AWS could become an automatic response - and that a single yellow (or worse a red) could 'catch you out'.

Are there many stretches of line where this standard in the rush hour? Do other warning systems provide any help in this respect. Or is it just left down to the driver to 'be more alert'?
 

BravoGolfMike

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Driving on Yellows is where Non Technical Skills really comes into play. Restrictive driving policies are all very well if you are on 4 aspect plain line with a reasonably high linespeed, but anywhere else, especially on 3 aspect lines, it is pretty pretty useless.
Whats the point of saying "No more than 40 past a single yellow" when the single yellow is round a corner on a stretch of 90mph track? You would have to drive at about 45mph everywhere, or at least on the approach to signals, in order to comply with the policy.

Also, "No more than 40 past a single Yellow" implies that 40 is ok, but in many places if you go past the single yellow at 40mph you should be taken out of the chair and med-screened.

If the driver has good Non Technical Skills, then coupled with a good route knowledge they will always be able to stop safely in plenty of time before the Red, which after all is the whole point. No formula needed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You've given me a thought. I guess it must be quite a challenge to drivers on certain congested routes, who might have to drive for quite a distance on double-yellows. I could well understand how cancelling the AWS could become an automatic response - and that a single yellow (or worse a red) could 'catch you out'.

Are there many stretches of line where this standard in the rush hour? Do other warning systems provide any help in this respect. Or is it just left down to the driver to 'be more alert'?

This is a well known danger. It is known to some as "Chasing Yellows," and is a frequent cause of SPADs. Drivers go past Double Yellow after Double Yellow and don't notice the single Yellow they just went past until the Red comes into view, by which time it will probably be too late. Non Technical Skills again come into play here. I call out aspects when I am in this situation, works well for me (but not for everyone.)
 
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ModernRailways

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You've given me a thought. I guess it must be quite a challenge to drivers on certain congested routes, who might have to drive for quite a distance on double-yellows. I could well understand how cancelling the AWS could become an automatic response - and that a single yellow (or worse a red) could 'catch you out'.

Are there many stretches of line where this standard in the rush hour? Do other warning systems provide any help in this respect. Or is it just left down to the driver to 'be more alert'?

I'm in no way an expert but I know a driver on the Brighton Main Line who regularly runs under double yellows and he says that it depends on distance between signals and line speed. If there is a good distance between the signals so that he can prepare to stop after a single yellow then he will. If however, there is a short gap then he will decrease speed so that he can prepare to stop if it is at single yellow.

He also says, however that he always ensures he has plenty of stopping distance, or distance to keep the train moving at around 5mph up until the signal as passengers prefer a slow moving train than a stopped train.

One final thing he mentioned is the fact that he sometimes brings his speed right down and coasts at around 45mph (line speed 90mph) when running under cautionary aspects and then once he gets greens he goes back to line speed. He did say though that it all depends on the condition of the train, weather, time of day, and what other trains he may delay by slowing right down. For example in the peaks he may be running under cautionary aspects but also have a stopping service following. If this was the case he wouldn't do the coasting as it may delay the train behind as that would have to stop/start constantly.

I can imagine certain areas of line where trains can continue at line speed until a single yellow then decrease speed, especially in some of the units with great brakes.

Obviously, I'm not an expert. My friend however drives these trains (almost) daily so I would imagine he would know a bit better than me.
 

transmanche

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This is a well known danger. It is known to some as "Chasing Yellows," and is a frequent cause of SPADs. Drivers go past Double Yellow after Double Yellow and don't notice the single Yellow they just went past until the Red comes into view, by which time it will probably be too late. Non Technical Skills again come into play here. I call out aspects when I am in this situation, works well for me (but not for everyone.)
That makes sense, I think it's what police drivers have to do when doing their advanced driver training - saying out loud means you 'notice' it as well as 'see' it. Cheers for the info.
 

dk1

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You've given me a thought. I guess it must be quite a challenge to drivers on certain congested routes, who might have to drive for quite a distance on double-yellows. I could well understand how cancelling the AWS could become an automatic response - and that a single yellow (or worse a red) could 'catch you out'.

Are there many stretches of line where this standard in the rush hour? Do other warning systems provide any help in this respect. Or is it just left down to the driver to 'be more alert'?

Personally this is more of an issue for me Chelmsford to Shenfield then Ilford to Liverpool Street. These are sections where other services are reguarlly caught up especially if following Freightliers or during peak congestion. You get to know what is likely to be in front & drive accordingly. Better to do this than constantly going power-brake power-brake. Better for passengers & energy consumption.
 

A-driver

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Personally this is more of an issue for me Chelmsford to Shenfield then Ilford to Liverpool Street. These are sections where other services are reguarlly caught up especially if following Freightliers or during peak congestion. You get to know what is likely to be in front & drive accordingly. Better to do this than constantly going power-brake power-brake. Better for passengers & energy consumption.

Indeed. If running under yellows and then I get a green I often won't apply power until I can see the next signal is also green. Plus again it comes down to route knowledge and experience. If you get checked down in an 'unusual' place then its often a sign of a lengthy delay as opposed to a train not booked to stop At Finsbury park fir example being checked down on approach-you can make a fair guess you are caught behind a stopping train and so again approach at a very low speed to give it time to depart the station and clear the next section to try to avoid stopping if possible.
 

Dieseldriver

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I actually love this side of driving. Nothing better than 'pacing' and getting it bang on! :D With route/diagramming knowledge there are stations I can approach while coasting with the signals dropping off to less restrictive aspects as I approach them, for me to roll smoothly into the platform on time :)
 

notadriver

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With services in London increasing its becoming very rare to get a clear run to/from the London boundary without almost being brought to a stand (at least south of the river). Attainment of line speed seems to be an exception rather than the rule.
 

Mojo

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Also depends on the type of signalling. On two-aspect signalling when approaching many repeaters showing a single yellow I imagine at some of them drivers will be approaching at full line speed ;)
 

TDK

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Driving on Yellows is where Non Technical Skills really comes into play. Restrictive driving policies are all very well if you are on 4 aspect plain line with a reasonably high linespeed, but anywhere else, especially on 3 aspect lines, it is pretty pretty useless.
Whats the point of saying "No more than 40 past a single yellow" when the single yellow is round a corner on a stretch of 90mph track? You would have to drive at about 45mph everywhere, or at least on the approach to signals, in order to comply with the policy.

Also, "No more than 40 past a single Yellow" implies that 40 is ok, but in many places if you go past the single yellow at 40mph you should be taken out of the chair and med-screened.

If the driver has good Non Technical Skills, then coupled with a good route knowledge they will always be able to stop safely in plenty of time before the Red, which after all is the whole point. No formula needed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This is a well known danger. It is known to some as "Chasing Yellows," and is a frequent cause of SPADs. Drivers go past Double Yellow after Double Yellow and don't notice the single Yellow they just went past until the Red comes into view, by which time it will probably be too late. Non Technical Skills again come into play here. I call out aspects when I am in this situation, works well for me (but not for everyone.)

A few good points - Non technical skills is a new thing within the rail industry for drivers that has directly come from the aviation sector mainly from pilots. NTS is to be fair a huge workload for DM's and in my opinion drivers of trains have been using NTS for years. As for 40mph past a single yellow, signal spacing is mainly down to line speed, gradients and sighting so if the line speed is 100 or 50, 40mph passing a single yellow should in fact be a safe measure however it is a drivers discretion on what speed they pass a single yellow. A few points below on my opinion of the importance of a drivers role on caution signals.

1. Continuous approaching or 2 yellows - train in front, know what the train is, where it stops and regulate your speed so you see greens and not a preliminary caution.

2. Know you routes well enough to know the gradients and location of the train in front.

3. Treat all track approach signals as normal red aspects to be doing only 15mph 200m from the red.

4. Adhere to the PDP by using no more than 50% power on all occasions when under cautionary aspects.

5. Know your traction and the prevailing weather conditions.

6. Never presume anything always treat a stop signal as a stop signal, the train in front may have stopped out of course.

As for chasing yellows being a "frequent reason for SPAD's" where is your evidence? I feel that this is an in-frequent reason. The most frequent reason being a SOYSPAD or a SASSPAD and this is where the NTC will be a huge help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also depends on the type of signalling. On two-aspect signalling when approaching many repeaters showing a single yellow I imagine at some of them drivers will be approaching at full line speed ;)

This is a good point however if you had a caution at the last 2 aspect set up then you will know there is a train in front and will not be doing line speed. The same applies to AB, if you have a long block section then you know by route knowledge where the train in front is. The distant signal for most AB sections is service braking distant to the home signal as is the distant for 2 aspect. In my opinion a good saying for a train driver is "If you can avoid approaching a RED signal by adjusting your driving that is one RED signal you will not have the risk in passing"
 

BravoGolfMike

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A few good points - Non technical skills is a new thing within the rail industry for drivers that has directly come from the aviation sector mainly from pilots. NTS is to be fair a huge workload for DM's and in my opinion drivers of trains have been using NTS for years. As for 40mph past a single yellow, signal spacing is mainly down to line speed, gradients and sighting so if the line speed is 100 or 50, 40mph passing a single yellow should in fact be a safe measure however it is a drivers discretion on what speed they pass a single yellow. A few points below on my opinion of the importance of a drivers role on caution signals.

1. Continuous approaching or 2 yellows - train in front, know what the train is, where it stops and regulate your speed so you see greens and not a preliminary caution.

2. Know you routes well enough to know the gradients and location of the train in front.

3. Treat all track approach signals as normal red aspects to be doing only 15mph 200m from the red.

4. Adhere to the PDP by using no more than 50% power on all occasions when under cautionary aspects.

5. Know your traction and the prevailing weather conditions.

6. Never presume anything always treat a stop signal as a stop signal, the train in front may have stopped out of course.

As for chasing yellows being a "frequent reason for SPAD's" where is your evidence? I feel that this is an in-frequent reason. The most frequent reason being a SOYSPAD or a SASSPAD and this is where the NTC will be a huge help.

The workload is high in respect of NTS because it is a new system and takes some getting used to. Recently in my company, DMs have had to duplicate ride outs and download reports, one in the old style and one in the new NTS style. This clearly will not go on forever! NTS is also having to be explained to a bunch of cynical drivers which isn't easy but eventually it will become the norm and people will adapt. It is certainly here to stay so as people get used to it, things will become easier.

I actually feel that it has not been explained well to drivers (possibly because those doing the explaining don't fully understand it themselves,) which is unfortunate because giving people a better understanding of Situational Awareness, Workload Management and Conscientiousness, to name but three, will hopefully result in fewer SOLs.

For incident investigation as well NTS is going to be useful. Why did the driver have a lapse? Did they prioritise the red signal over the station stop correctly? Are they reading their notices and keeping up to date with rules? But I am digressing from the point.


I disagree with your point 4 by the way, "Always adhere to the PDP by using no more than 50% power on all occasions when under cautionary aspects."
a) because, thankfully, my company doesn't have such a restrictive PDP, they let us get on with it, and b) because often it is unnecessary. If you leave a station on YY and the next station is before the Red, what is the point of taking half power? You will only lose time. Sometimes on metro routes you can even leave on a single Yellow and the next station will be before the red. No point taking half power then either, open it up then straight onto the DRA when shutting off.


As for chasing yellows being a frequent cause of SPADs, well I guess it depends on how you define frequent! I can think of at least 3 within the past year which were caused by repeated AWS cancelling although a couple had TSRs involved so not just chasing yellows. SASSPADS are rare now, in fact I don't think we had one caused by that last year. SOYSPADs are more common but by far the biggest cause at the moment seems to be shunting SPADs and poor use of the DRA and checking procedures (NTS again!) when changing ends.
 
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Rugd1022

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You've given me a thought. I guess it must be quite a challenge to drivers on certain congested routes, who might have to drive for quite a distance on double-yellows. I could well understand how cancelling the AWS could become an automatic response - and that a single yellow (or worse a red) could 'catch you out'.

Are there many stretches of line where this standard in the rush hour? Do other warning systems provide any help in this respect. Or is it just left down to the driver to 'be more alert'?

There have been many, many occasions where I've worked one of our 60mph freights and followed a stopper all the way from Hendon to Bedford under double / single yellows... very frustrating!
 

transmanche

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The most frequent reason being a SOYSPAD or a SASSPAD and this is where the NTC will be a huge help.
OK, I know what a SPAD is. SOYSPAD and SASSPAD are obviously 'sub-types' of SPAD, but I cannot work out what they are!
 

Muzer

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I had a quick google, they're both types of SPAD caused by a driver failing to read/notice/take into account the signal immediately when driving the train coming out of a station, etc.

SOYSPAD is a "Starting on yellow SPAD" - the driver doesn't spot a yellow signal at the end of the platform/wherever and so is going too fast for the next signal which is red.

SASSPAD is "Starting against signal SPAD" - similar but where the signal at the end of the platform is red and so the driver passes it at danger immediately (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ding-ding,_and_away )


(I'm not a driver, this is just what a quick google told me ;))
 

Tomnick

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A SOYSPAD, I thought, was where the driver is starting away from a platform, having previously passed and possibly forgotten about a signal at yellow (rather than the yellow being on the end of the platform), and is therefore travelling too fast when the red eventually comes into view.
 

Muzer

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Ah, sorry. My mistake, in that case.

(I suppose either would count, though, wouldn't it?)
 

A-driver

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A SOYSPAD, I thought, was where the driver is starting away from a platform, having previously passed and possibly forgotten about a signal at yellow (rather than the yellow being on the end of the platform), and is therefore travelling too fast when the red eventually comes into view.

Can be either really. Basically it's when a red around the corner from a station is red and a driver passes it having opened up normally from the station. It's why they get funny when we don't use the DRA properly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
 

TDK

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NTS is also having to be explained to a bunch of cynical drivers which isn't easy but eventually it will become the norm and people will adapt.

The bunch of drivers you refer to have been using NTS for years as I have, it isn't new, it is just the industry being what they are and adding a new angle on train driving, same as Risk Triggered Commentry when that came in, I had been using that for years as well.

For incident investigation as well NTS is going to be useful. Why did the driver have a lapse? Did they prioritise the red signal over the station stop correctly? Are they reading their notices and keeping up to date with rules? But I am digressing from the point.

Once again, as an investigator my self (previous job) NTS has once again been a factor, nothing new there. [/quote]


I disagree with your point 4 by the way, "Always adhere to the PDP by using no more than 50% power on all occasions when under cautionary aspects."

unless there is a derogation in the PDP I will do exactly as the PDP says as I will be using my NTS

As for chasing yellows being a frequent cause of SPADs, well I guess it depends on how you define frequent! I can think of at least 3 within the past year which were caused by repeated AWS cancelling although a couple had TSRs involved so not just chasing yellows.

3 out of over 200 is not frequent.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's why they get funny when we don't use the DRA properly.

You should change the "WE" to "I"
 
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A-driver

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You should change the "WE" to "I"

Excuse me? I always use the DRA in the way outlined by my company thank you very much! By 'we' I mean drivers, and there are some who get picked up by managers during ride outs or downloads when they forget to set the DRA after passing a yellow protecting a platform (and everyone forgets to do things whilst driving from time to time-even you). My point was simply that management take DRA usage seriously due to sas and soy spads.

But thanks for reminding us all again that you are a super driver who never makes mistakes! I'm sure most drivers aspire to be like you!
 

BravoGolfMike

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The bunch of drivers you refer to have been using NTS for years as I have, it isn't new, it is just the industry being what they are and adding a new angle on train driving, same as Risk Triggered Commentry when that came in, I had been using that for years as well.
Yes I am well aware of that thank you. That wasn't the point though, was it. The point was that it is taking time and effort explaining the new way of working and many many drivers are cynical (whether or not we have been doing it for years is irrelevant.)

Once again, as an investigator my self (previous job) NTS has once again been a factor, nothing new there.

Wow, you haven't mentioned that before. But seriously, if everyone has been using the system for years, why then (in your words) is it taking up so much DM time? You are contradicting yourself here. Whether or not people have been using NTS for years, and it doesn't take a genius to work out that the concept of Situational Awareness, Communication etc is nothing new, is irrelevant to your original point that it is taking up DM time. Either it is new, or it isn't.


unless there is a derogation in the PDP I will do exactly as the PDP says as I will be using my NTS
I am grateful that I work for a company which doesn't have such a ridiculous clause in the PDP.


3 out of over 200 is not frequent.

Are you being difficult on purpose? I would have thought it was painfully obvious that I was referring to SPADs of which I am aware; ie the ones my company have had. Last year was about 15, so it is 3 in 15, not 3 in 200.
 

TDK

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Excuse me? I always use the DRA in the way outlined by my company thank you very much! By 'we' I mean drivers, and there are some who get picked up by managers during ride outs or downloads when they forget to set the DRA after passing a yellow protecting a platform (and everyone forgets to do things whilst driving from time to time-even you). My point was simply that management take DRA usage seriously due to sas and soy spads.

But thanks for reminding us all again that you are a super driver who never makes mistakes! I'm sure most drivers aspire to be like you!

I was not reminding anyone anything - maybe you needed to rephrase your post - Management always monitor the use of the DRA and will remind a driver if it has not been use with accordance of the rules. By quoting we you were referring to everyone including yourself so there fore I feel my reply was in context of what you put.
 

A-driver

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I was not reminding anyone anything - maybe you needed to rephrase your post - Management always monitor the use of the DRA and will remind a driver if it has not been use with accordance of the rules. By quoting we you were referring to everyone including yourself so there fore I feel my reply was in context of what you put.

So why did you feel the need to say that I meant 'I' and not 'we'? I was saying 'we' as the driver grade. Personally I have not been picked up on DRA usage by a manager but I know others who have if they have forgotten to set it etc. I just felt that your comment was completely un-needed and pointless unless you were trying to suggest that you don't make mistakes yourself (which I don't believe for a second I'm afraid).
 

TDK

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Yes I am well aware of that thank you. That wasn't the point though, was it. The point was that it is taking time and effort explaining the new way of working and many many drivers are cynical (whether or not we have been doing it for years is irrelevant.)

Time being used that is not necessary and a huge workload on DM's who already have enough to do. A simple download a week would certainly be easier and better than this NTS drive. It is a bureaucratic measure put in place by people who do not even know the proper role of train driving and have most likely never driven a train before in other words it is a new format put in place because someone somewhere thinks it will assist in the reduction of incidents - time will tell.


But seriously, if everyone has been using the system for years, why then (in your words) is it taking up so much DM time?

Because the DM's have to completely change the drivers competency pack and have to add all these details into the new pack - I still think the time could be better used.

Some questions that are asked on assessment in connection to NTS are:

1. Why are you using notch 5 at this location - It is in the PDP
2. Why are you braking at this location - Because I am stopping at the next station
3. What would happen if you didn't brake here? I would not stop at the station
4. Why are you not driving at line speed here - because it is a down gradient and I am running to time.

Come on all these things are natural for a driver so why does a DM need to waste their time in asking these questions?

I am grateful that I work for a company which doesn't have such a ridiculous clause in the PDP.

Agreed - However when you have management who are using this new process "NTS process" they will be using the PDP as a guide - unfortunately many of the companies PDP's are written by people who are out of touch and to be fair it is a back covering document

Are you being difficult on purpose? I would have thought it was painfully obvious that I was referring to SPADs of which I am aware; ie the ones my company have had. Last year was about 15, so it is 3 in 15, not 3 in 200.

No - I read your post as it was written, 3 out of 15 is a high percentage and after 2 your company should have strengthened your PDP to try to reduce the "chasing yellows SPADS" obviously your company has not addressed the issue correctly for there to be 3 out of 15.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So why did you feel the need to say that I meant 'I' and not 'we'? I was saying 'we' as the driver grade. Personally I have not been picked up on DRA usage by a manager but I know others who have if they have forgotten to set it etc. I just felt that your comment was completely un-needed and pointless unless you were trying to suggest that you don't make mistakes yourself (which I don't believe for a second I'm afraid).

Everyone makes mistakes on a daily basis as we all know me included and of course you do, not only in the train driving grade but in life. I am sorry if I mis-read your post and for that I apologise, I read things as written and well done for not being disciplined or spoken to about the DRA as there are not many drivers about who have not been spoken to regarding the use of it.
 

stanley T

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OK, so how you drive on yellows depends mainly on judgment, experience, location. How is this affected (if at all) by TPWS?
 
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