Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

At an approach speed of 80 mph or greater, if the turnout speed is 40 mph or higher then flashing yellows can be applied (if this can be acheived without confusing the driver). If the turnout speed is 35 or less then MAR (main aspect approach released from red) is required.


At an approach speed is between 40 and 75, if the turnout speed is 30 mph or higher then flashing yellows can be applied (if this can be acheived without confusing the driver). If the turnout speed is 25 or less then MAR (main aspect approach released from red) is required.

If the turnout speed is within 10mph of the approach speed or the approach speed is lower than 40mph then no controls are required.

The Down Helsby to P4 signal check will be because of a short overlap or awaiting the junction clearing ahead - the move Down Helsby to Down Main is only 10mph anyway, IIRC?

Thanks, I understand the rules now.
Actually I meant the Down Main to P4 at Warrington.
Chester trains normally run over to the Down Main at Acton Grange (50mph), then over the MSC bridge, then gradually slow to the approach control on the 100/90mph Down Main, and then when at walking pace speed up for the 50mph turnout for P4 when the red clears.
So you have a 175 clogging up the Down Main unnecessarily.
(Routeing via the Down Helsby is even slower with the 10mph crossover!).
A similar run routed into P3 is much faster, with no approach control needed.

I have a theory that the mysterious Northern Hub sub-project entitled "Chester-Warrington Journey Time Improvements" is in fact fitting flashing yellows at Warrington.

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Something for the rivet counters:
On a second run this week I counted 150+ concrete foundations installed between Huyton and Springs Branch on each line.
Some extend east of Bryn on the Up (eastbound) line, but not yet on the Down.
Can't be long before the first steelwork appears.

 

[edwin_m]

There is a wish to provide four or even six platforms at Salford Central but it's not part of the current scheme.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is a wish to provide four or even six platforms at Salford Central but it's not part of the current scheme.

That "wish" is shared amongst the rail passengers as well as those in the higher echelons of the rail industry.

 

[WatcherZero]

I can tell you that its made the priority list of local transport fund schemes and will be going ahead subject to final Central Government approval for the LTB's lists next year. Would be done in the 2015-2019 time period. Its been costed at £37.4m of which the local contribution would be just over £20m.

 

[Ships]

I'll be honest I always thought it to be strange they took them out, does anyone know when this happened? I always assumed during the butchering of Victoria however my quali shows vic in the old layout but Salford central down to two platforms (I know quails not the best guide but would seem strange to not Har them updated in the same ed if they happened concurrently).

I'm looking forward to going on secondment with PBH in the next few months, hoping to get in on some of the track design work around here

 

[Welshman]

Actually I meant the Down Main to P4 at Warrington.
Chester trains normally run over to the Down Main at Acton Grange (50mph), then over the MSC bridge, then gradually slow to the approach control on the 100/90mph Down Main, and then when at walking pace speed up for the 50mph turnout for P4 when the red clears.
So you have a 175 clogging up the Down Main unnecessarily.

This is also particularly annoying for passengers wishing to alight at Warrington BQ.

The automated announcement of the approaching station is normally triggered whilst the train is coming-off the MSC bridge and slowing down for the red. Passengers think it is slowing down for the station, so start walking down the aisles, gathering in the vestibules, etc, and because they think the train will continue to slow down are caught off-guard when it accelerates over the crossover when the signal clears.

A similar situation exists in the westbound direction on the approach to Rhyl station, where again, the platform loop is approach-controlled, the announcement of the station is too early and passengers are again walking down the aisles, collecting luggage, etc, as the unit accelerates over the crossover.
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I'll be honest I always thought it to be strange they took them out, does anyone know when this happened? I always assumed during the butchering of Victoria however my quali shows vic in the old layout but Salford central down to two platforms (I know quails not the best guide but would seem strange to not Har them updated in the same ed if they happened concurrently).

I think it was in 1973 that the then Salford station was reduced to being served in the peak hours only, and it could be then that the two platforms you mention were taken out of use.

 

[AndyLandy]

What route will the newly-electrified Manchester Airport-Glasgow take?

I believe at the moment it goes via Salford Crescent and Bolton and joins the WCML just south of Preston? So what's all this talk of electrifying to Newton-le-Willows? How does that help get trains to Glasgow? Or am I missing something obvious here.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What route will the newly-electrified Manchester Airport-Glasgow take?

I believe at the moment it goes via Salford Crescent and Bolton and joins the WCML just south of Preston? So what's all this talk of electrifying to Newton-le-Willows? How does that help get trains to Glasgow? Or am I missing something obvious here.

Electric trains will cross Chat Moss and then turn right at Parkside (just short of Newton-le-Willows) to join the WCML at Golborne Jn, then via Wigan NW.
When the route via Bolton is electrified they could return to that route but I think the plan is to keep them via Parkside/Wigan.
Timings will be very similar.

 

[Eagle]

It will go via Eccles, but turn off onto the WCML just before NLW.

Via Bolton is being electrified too, completion sometime around 2016. Although I think the Scotland services will be going via Eccles permanently.

 

[AntoniC]

I can tell you that its made the priority list of local transport fund schemes and will be going ahead subject to final Central Government approval for the LTB's lists next year. Would be done in the 2015-2019 time period. Its been costed at £37.4m of which the local contribution would be just over £20m.

This from yesterday's Manchester Evening News

£200m plan to overhaul Greater Manchester's transport
26 Jul 2013 10:51

Transport bosses have selected a dozen key road and rail projects for development by 2025 – including three new interchanges.
Share on print Share on email
The transport wishlist for the region includes an upgrade for Salford Central railway station and Stockport bus station, pictured The transport wishlist for the region includes an upgrade for Salford Central railway station and Stockport bus station, pictured

A £200m wishlist of major transport schemes has been unveiled by the region’s leaders.

Transport bosses have selected a dozen key road and rail projects for development by 2025 – including three new interchanges.

If signed off, they will be sent to the government by the end of the month.

Approval from ministers should see a new £199.2m transport fund handed over to local leaders.

They want more than half to be spent in Stockport – made up of £41.7m for a new public transport hub and £60m to ease road congestion around the town.

It would see the current bus station – described in an internal options report as ‘outdated’ – dramatically overhauled and better linked to the train station overlooking it, fitting in with wider regeneration plans by Stockport council.

Junctions and cycle routes would also get a major facelift.

Meanwhile, £32m would pay for a new bus and tram interchange in Ashton-under-Lyne, demolishing the current bus station.

Nearly £40m would improve the number 8 bus route from Manchester to Bolton, speeding it up and making it more reliable.

Bosses want £20m to go on easing congestion around Manchester city centre, specifically at the Regent Road and Water Street bottleneck, and Great Ancoats Street.

And £37m would go towards projects in and around Wigan – upgrading the town’s bus station and building the A49 and M58 link roads.

Salford Central station would get a £20m upgrade, while £6.8m would go on a proposed link road at Junction 19 of the M62, at South Heywood.

The schemes have been picked according to their potential economic benefits.

Many have been in the pipeline for several years, but the funding had not been available.

Some others have been put on the back burner, including an upgrade to the tram stop under Manchester Piccadilly station.

The wishlist is due to be signed off by Greater Manchester’s Combined Authority when it meets today in Bolton.

The new funding pot – £110m of which would be handed over in the next six years, followed by a second tranche of £89.2m by 2024 – comes on top of the region’s radical ‘city deal’, signed off by the chancellor last month.

That will provide £455m for the SEMMMS airport relief road and the Trafford Metrolink extension, by allowing the region to ‘earn back’ cash based on the results of its own investment.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...00m-plan-overhaul-greater-manchesters-5326698

 

[WatcherZero]

It will go via Eccles, but turn off onto the WCML just before NLW.

Via Bolton is being electrified too, completion sometime around 2016. Although I think the Scotland services will be going via Eccles permanently.

In the distant future im hoping it will go via the HS2 Manchester Delta which will free a couple more paths on Chat Moss for TPE services or make room for a new suburban station on the line which the current express timetable doesnt allow.

 

[Nym]

In the distant future im hoping it will go via the HS2 Manchester Delta which will free a couple more paths on Chat Moss for TPE services or make room for a new suburban station on the line which the current express timetable doesnt allow.

I'm hoping for the same too, as well as some other 'quick' services up the WCML to everything on the classic lines can pick up a decent number of stops.

 

[Darren R]

I think it was in 1973 that the then Salford station was reduced to being served in the peak hours only, and it could be then that the two platforms you mention were taken out of use.

No it was much more recently than that when the platforms were taken out of use. Not sure exactly when as the opening of Salford Crescent station along with the Windsor Link, the remodelling of Manchester Victoria station, and some further remodelling in the Salford - Windsor Bridge Jn area as part of the Manchester North resignalling all happened within a few years of each other. Salford Crescent opened in 1987, the Windsor Link the following year, and the Man Vic remodelling in 1992-93. It was during this time frame Salford Central became double track only. Prior to that the current lines were the Fast lines and the closed platforms were on the Slow. For many years there was also a bay platform facing Salford Crescent behind the Down Slow. Not sure when that was lifted.

For a period while the line between Central and Crescent was being rebuilt, temporary wooden platforms were built on the Chat Moss lines, and services were diverted to run via Ordsall Lane Jn to Salford Cresent. I don't think trains to/from Liverpool called there though, just the Bolton/Wigan trains.

 

[snowball]

My Quail map, which claims to be up to date to October 1990, shows platforms 3, 4 and 5 as in use, and 2 as disused.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

This from yesterday's Manchester Evening News

£200m plan to overhaul Greater Manchester's transport
26 Jul 2013 10:51

Meanwhile, £32m would pay for a new bus and tram interchange in Ashton-under-Lyne, demolishing the current bus station.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...00m-plan-overhaul-greater-manchesters-5326698

we seem to have a rebuild of AUL bus station around every 10 years anyway!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

My Quail map, which claims to be up to date to October 1990, shows platforms 3, 4 and 5 as in use, and 2 as disused.

You need a second edition

The final sort out of Manchester Victoria and Deal Street was commissioned in September 1998. There were only two platforms in passenger use at Salford Central by summer 1997.

 

[Darren R]

The final sort out of Manchester Victoria and Deal Street was commissioned in September 1998. There were only two platforms in passenger use at Salford Central by summer 1997.

Good Lord - was it really as late as that! (Rhetorical question, by the way!) I remember all the work to make Man Vic - Salford Crescent what it is today (!) being done in several stages and taking a long time: don't remember it taking a decade. I thought the boxes at Victoria East Junction and Deal Street Junction were long gone by 1998, whereas they were around for a couple of years after the lustrous diamond that is the current Manchester Victoria emerged into the gloom.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Good Lord - was it really as late as that! (Rhetorical question, by the way!) I remember all the work to make Man Vic - Salford Crescent what it is today (!) being done in several stages and taking a long time: don't remember it taking a decade. I thought the boxes at Victoria East Junction and Deal Street Junction were long gone by 1998, whereas they were around for a couple of years after the lustrous diamond that is the current Manchester Victoria emerged into the gloom.

I can give you exact dates for the demolition of Deal Street and Irwell Street boxes, but I'd need to do some dusting first! BR did the bare minimum to remodel Victoria when the Nynex was built - it took nearly ten years to agree what the final arrangements should be and then these were reduced to what MVAIR delivered in 1998.

<irony> It's good to see the railway system is now reaping the manyfold benefits of this layout, and I'm sure anything the Hub does will be purely cosmetic </irony>.
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I have a theory that the mysterious Northern Hub sub-project entitled "Chester-Warrington Journey Time Improvements" is in fact fitting flashing yellows at Warrington.

An interesting theory, but how does that give any benefit to Chester services when Acton Grange Junction is removed?

P3 would be faster - it's the main line!

The entry to P4 has a PS of 50mph which in theory means that flashing aspects will work, but there are two routes from Down Main to P4, one via 709 points (50) and one via 702A&B (10mph), so how would a driver know which one they are being sent via? Ergo no flashing aspects. WN217 (which is MAR for P4) already has flashing double yellows for WN182, which is the junction signal for Dallam Royal Mail Terminal (40mph).

Lastly, the Chester Journey Time Improvement sub-project extended to Earlestown.

 

[The Planner]

Is Acton Grange still going? as unless it is going as a separate scheme now I know maintenance have binned their plan of stripping bits out.

 

[Ships]

What where they planning on doing at acton grange?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Is Acton Grange still going? as unless it is going as a separate scheme now I know maintenance have binned their plan of stripping bits out.

Has it stopped "going" again? 'Kinell, you have to run to keep up - my gen is now 11 months old, so you're more likely right than me.

I thought it was becoming a three crossover ladder to allow freight in and out of Arpley only and to "dis the diamonds" (there isn't much left of the stuff I helped install - this is the last one, I think).

 

[Ships]

That would fit, current thinking seems to be to replace fixed and switch diamonds with ladars. As far as I know this isn't being delivered by the S&C team this year.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm shocked that a decent (ie quite fast) crossover from the Chester direction at Acton Grange may be going!
That would mean sending everything via Walton Old Jn and the excruciating 10mph junction into WBQ.
That sounds like Chester-Warrington Journey Time dis-improvement...

Back to the main thread on Chat Moss electrification:

Ordsall Lane Jn is now fully wired.
But the three overall wiring gaps are as wide as ever.
Some of the "completed" stuff over the Moss is still tied into the stanchions with the registration gear still lying in the ballast.
I can't see them switching the power on throughout on 1 August.

And just to complete my day, the usual 3-car 175 Manchester-Llandudno turned into a jam-packed 2-car 150.
Must be a bad day at the office for Alstom in Chester depot.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And just to complete my day, the usual 3-car 175 Manchester-Llandudno turned into a jam-packed 2-car 150.

I suppose the only consolation that I can offer you is that you were spared the "delights" of a certain dreaded piece of rolling stock that I always describe as being "Newton Heath's finest"...:cry:

 

[DJH1971]

I suppose the only consolation that I can offer you is that you were spared the "delights" of a certain dreaded piece of rolling stock that I always describe as being "Newton Heath's finest"...:cry:

That would be the 'nodding donkey' then!

 

[Ships]

Switch and fixed diamonds are regarded as a bit of a liability (I think 200 delay minutes per year is mentioned in the business case for removing them). Depending on the new layout there's no reason why line speed would drop over the junction.

 

[Manchester77]

deleted

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Switch and fixed diamonds are regarded as a bit of a liability (I think 200 delay minutes per year is mentioned in the business case for removing them). Depending on the new layout there's no reason why line speed would drop over the junction.

Fixed diamonds to ladder is fine, and I could see why a double junction towards Chester is a luxury.
However if it becomes just a right hand ladder (Crewe to Walton Old Jn) I think that would impact Chester trains adversely.
But you probably need more length for a left/right ladder, which might not be available.

 

[Geeves]

Power is on the entire route from

00:01 03/08/13

All overheads to be considered live and dangerous!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Power is on the entire route from

00:01 03/08/13

All overheads to be considered live and dangerous!

I think we should consider Saturday as a major milestone. A point in railway history. The first completed electrification project (treating each phase separate in my eyes as they all allow changes to services) of what could be 40 years of continuous electrification. Well done to Network Rail and all the contractors... Lets hope this is only the beginning!