BBC Article on overcrowding- '100,000 passengers a day stand into London'

[Dave1987]

Electric IEPs will be able to maintain air con in the absence of OHLE supply.

What is the draw from a 4-car commuter unit's air conditioning system?

On 360's the auxiliaries can only supply power to the circulation/fresh air fans and other essential circuits.

The air con units draw so much power I don't believe it is possible to run them without the OHLE or at least not for very long.

 

[A-driver]

P.s As a member of ASLEF I do not agree all with Mick Whelans comments. I know a lot of drivers are seriously considering whether they want to continue being part of ASLEF........

Are they the same drivers who, despite branch meetings being held monthly, have never, ever attended one yet feel it acceptable to sit in mess rooms complaining that ASLEF don't do this and that the company don't do that etc...

The union is us people, the ones who pay membership and its a democracy. Make the effort to go to meetings and you can have your say!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[Dave1987]

Are they the same drivers who, despite branch meetings being held monthly, have never, ever attended one yet feel it acceptable to sit in mess rooms complaining that ASLEF don't do this and that the company don't do that etc...

The union is us people, the ones who pay membership and its a democracy. Make the effort to go to meetings and you can have your say!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Sorry buddy but by virtue of how the railway works some people will always be working. It's very very rich for Whelan to jump on the Bob Crow bandwagon and call for nationalisation but all the drivers I speak to have said pay and conditions have arguably been better since privatisation. The general consensus is that ASLEF and the other unions are too busy fighting the govt with labour and the other unions. They certainly do not seem to be worth the money we pay each month. They should get back to representing drivers interests not making politically motivated speeches to the press like this.

 

[jimm]

That Heathrow connect service is horrible, thankfully since I moved office I never have to commute on it but now that I travel in the opposite direction I see it at Hayes on its inward journey. The problem is commuters at Hayes and Southall will wait for a 5 car air conditioned 360 and a guaranteed a seat rather than get a 165/166 which has plenty of standing room. This means the train is full and standing by West Ealing - where the trains that have stopped at Southall/ Hayes pass through without stopping. I have seen people left on the platform there. Its even worse over summer since FGW have stopped bothering with maintaining the air con on their 166's.

I think the staff at Reading depot will find that last remark grossly insulting at a time when they are trying their level best to keep the system going - a system that is a rework of the inadequate kit fitted when the trains were built. As I have posted elsewhere, most of the year the new system is a huge improvement but clearly there is more to do in exceptionally hot weather, though short of a major rebuild of the 166s, it will probably never be perfect - just like the a/c in Mk3s isn't perfect, with a roasting coach due to a/c failure on the HST I caught home yesterday.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry buddy but by virtue of how the railway works some people will always be working. It's very very rich for Whelan to jump on the Bob Crow bandwagon and call for nationalisation but all the drivers I speak to have said pay and conditions have arguably been better since privatisation. The general consensus is that ASLEF and the other unions are too busy fighting the govt with labour and the other unions. They certainly do not seem to be worth the money we pay each month. They should get back to representing drivers interests not making politically motivated speeches to the press like this.

Branch meetings are planned so everyone has the chance to attend some of them. No one will be rostered to work a late turn which clashes with every single branch meeting in a year-most drivers will be able to attend at least 1 in 3 (unless they swap shifts or put rest day work above attending the branch which is their choice).

Plus, if you can't attend a meeting but want to raise an issue or vote on something you simply get a note to your LLRs in advance of the meeting and your vote will be counted/issue raised and discussed.

So sorry but I don't buy your excuse that some are always working. Too many drivers make no effort whatsoever to get their views heard officially by the union and then sit in the messrooms constantly moaning about things to other drivers who can't get things changed rather than bringing it up with their LLRs etc.

 

[HSTEd]

On 360's the auxiliaries can only supply power to the circulation/fresh air fans and other essential circuits.

The air con units draw so much power I don't believe it is possible to run them with the OHLE or at least not for very long.

If the power draw is only measured in the tens of kilowatts it might be possible to just arrange for all new units to have small diesel generators under oneof the carriages that is sufficient to provide hotel loads in the event that the train is stranded.

 

[Dave1987]

If the power draw is only measured in the tens of kilowatts it might be possible to just arrange for all new units to have small diesel generators under oneof the carriages that is sufficient to provide hotel loads in the event that the train is stranded.

But you are asking for them to carry a piece of heavy equipment that is expense that may never get used. Plus train air con units require a lot of power so the generator would have to be big. Much easier and cheaper to have a system by which the doors can be released and opened and then a guard rail placed across. I believe such things already exist!

 

[SWT_USER]

I think the staff at Reading depot will find that last remark grossly insulting at a time when they are trying their level best to keep the system going - a system that is a rework of the inadequate kit fitted when the trains were built. As I have posted elsewhere, most of the year the new system is a huge improvement but clearly there is more to do in exceptionally hot weather, though short of a major rebuild of the 166s, it will probably never be perfect - just like the a/c in Mk3s isn't perfect, with a roasting coach due to a/c failure on the HST I caught home yesterday.

If the air con on the 166's worked anything like as well as it does in the MK3's I'd be delighted. I think I've been on one 166 where it has been working properly in the past month and I usually get at least one a day (depending on whether 165/166 turns up). Not sure if this has been such a problem in previous years as this is my first summer on my current commute.

 

[jimm]

If the air con on the 166's worked anything like as well as it does in the MK3's I'd be delighted. I think I've been on one 166 where it has been working properly in the past month and I usually get at least one a day (depending on whether 165/166 turns up). Not sure if this has been such a problem in previous years as this is my first summer on my current commute.

The current system was only installed in 2011-12 and didn't face this sort of weather last year. For the entire life of the 166s until then, the original a/c system was a pig to keep working reliably, whatever the time of year.

And how about an apology to the staff at Reading, who certainly have not given up trying to keep the a/c working?

 

[transmanche]

The current system was only installed in 2011-12 and didn't face this sort of weather last year.

Whilst it's the heavy rain and flooding that people remember from last year, there were quite a few periods of high temperature last summer.

For example, Heathrow Airport had temps of 25C and above for the last week in May, a few days in June, about a week in July, almost the entire 2nd/3rd weeks of August and a week at the start of September. A handful of these days were 30C or above.

The average max temp for Heathrow is 22C in July, 21C in August.

So perhaps a bit more spread out than this year and we've had one or two more 30C+ days this year - but the A/C will have had some tough days to deal with last year too.

 

[SWT_USER]

The current system was only installed in 2011-12 and didn't face this sort of weather last year. For the entire life of the 166s until then, the original a/c system was a pig to keep working reliably, whatever the time of year.

And how about an apology to the staff at Reading, who certainly have not given up trying to keep the a/c working?

Unfortunately their efforts are fruitless. When the air con actually works they will get an apology. I don't doubt that the staff are trying their best though, no doubt as with most rolling stock problems if you throw enough money at it then it will disappear but FGW aren't willing to do that, much like SWT not fitting air con to their 455's.

 

[Flamingo]

And how about an apology to the staff at Reading, who certainly have not given up trying to keep the a/c working?

That's a triumph of hope over experience, mate! He's a customer, how can anything they say or do ever be wrong?

 

[jimm]

Unfortunately their efforts are fruitless. When the air con actually works they will get an apology. I don't doubt that the staff are trying their best though, no doubt as with most rolling stock problems if you throw enough money at it then it will disappear but FGW aren't willing to do that, much like SWT not fitting air con to their 455's.

You don't doubt they are trying? Not what your first post said, was it? Or have you forgotten already? See below for a reminder. And were you complaining about the air con on the 166s up until about three weeks ago? I wonder...

Its even worse over summer since FGW have stopped bothering with maintaining the air con on their 166's.

transmanche, I didn't say it didn't get hot at times last year, but not for such sustained periods.

And last summer, passengers could still open all the hopper windows in the 166s the instant the sun came out, which instantly killed the a/c anyway, so no-one could ever be sure if the new kit was better in the heat or not. This year, with the windows normally locked, so needing to be opened by staff, has shown there are still problems in heat.

But, I repeat, the problems that were evident with the old system at almost any time of the year have pretty much been eradicated. And you don't have the problem of some fresh air freak opening the windows on 166s in December, though of course they were seated under the window, so weren't caught in the icy draught that chilled everyone else to the bone - and still does on any ex-BR stock with hopper windows. What a treat 165s with dodgy window catches are on a cold morning...

 

[causton]

That's a triumph of hope over experience, mate! He's a customer, how can anything they say or do ever be wrong?

Indeed, your post has the words 'Reading' and 'customer' in it - I can only think of horrible images :P

 

[transmanche]

transmanche, I didn't say it didn't get hot at times last year, but not for such sustained periods.

Well looking at Heathrow Airport again; the max temp has been 25C+ for most of the past two weeks and for almost a week at the start of the months, a couple of days in June and no days in May. So not really that sustained and not that much different from last year. The only significant difference is a run of a week of 30C+ temperatures this month.

 

[sbt]

That's a triumph of hope over experience, mate! He's a customer, how can anything they say or do ever be wrong?

And this attitude is a major part of the reason I left this forum for a while.

And why I won't bother explaining why so many passengers crowd at one end of the train or another - its obviously because we are all (despite the fact I don't do it) evil and stupid. There can be no other explanation.

 

[SWT_USER]

You don't doubt they are trying? Not what your first post said, was it? Or have you forgotten already? See below for a reminder. And were you complaining about the air con on the 166s up until about three weeks ago? I wonder...



transmanche, I didn't say it didn't get hot at times last year, but not for such sustained periods.

And last summer, passengers could still open all the hopper windows in the 166s the instant the sun came out, which instantly killed the a/c anyway, so no-one could ever be sure if the new kit was better in the heat or not. This year, with the windows normally locked, so needing to be opened by staff, has shown there are still problems in heat.

But, I repeat, the problems that were evident with the old system at almost any time of the year have pretty much been eradicated. And you don't have the problem of some fresh air freak opening the windows on 166s in December, though of course they were seated under the window, so weren't caught in the icy draught that chilled everyone else to the bone - and still does on any ex-BR stock with hopper windows. What a treat 165s with dodgy window catches are on a cold morning...

I'm sure they are doing their best with what they have, but it isn't being maintained - it doesn't work!

I wasn't complaining about the air conditioning up until 3 weeks ago no, because it wasn't hot enough for. Disagree with the windows usually being shut too, normally they are open - because the a/c isn't working.

Agree with your last paragraph though.

 

[Flamingo]

And this attitude is a major part of the reason I left this forum for a while.

And why I won't bother explaining why so many passengers crowd at one end of the train or another - its obviously because we are all (despite the fact I don't do it) evil and stupid. There can be no other explanation.

I wouldn't say evil. Just stupid

Anyway, if you didn't go away, how would we miss you?

 

[SWT_USER]

And this attitude is a major part of the reason I left this forum for a while.

And why I won't bother explaining why so many passengers crowd at one end of the train or another - its obviously because we are all (despite the fact I don't do it) evil and stupid. There can be no other explanation.

It is stupid, I'm not staff but my train will often arrive on time and leave anything up to a minute late because everyone wants to get on at the first set of doors. Multiply that by a few stations and the delay starts to add up...

 

[jimm]

Well looking at Heathrow Airport again; the max temp has been 25C+ for most of the past two weeks and for almost a week at the start of the months, a couple of days in June and no days in May. So not really that sustained and not that much different from last year. The only significant difference is a run of a week of 30C+ temperatures this month.

And your last sentence says it all - 30C+ is not normal in this country, is it? Not that 25C+ happens that often for extended periods either, as your figures show.

I'm sure they are doing their best with what they have, but it isn't being maintained - it doesn't work!

I wasn't complaining about the air conditioning up until 3 weeks ago no, because it wasn't hot enough for. Disagree with the windows usually being shut too, normally they are open - because the a/c isn't working.

Agree with your last paragraph though.

Make your mind up. Are they maintaining it or not? You manage to have it both ways in one sentence. I think you seem to be saying that up until the hot spell started, the system was doing its job.

How the windows are normally open on the 166s you use, I'm not sure, because FGW recently removed the handles and locked them. They may have unlocked them again in anticipation of the heat and just relied on the seals to keep them shut most of the time but the intention is clearly to operate with the hopper windows out of use except in a case of system failure.

And if people are being allowed to open windows by themselves again, then that is very likely contributing to the failures, as the blast of air blowing in just confuses the system so much it sits down and dies - same as it did with the old kit. There is a reason air-conditioned spaces need to be reasonably well sealed up.

I repeat, the original 166 system was a lash-up, added as an afterthought to the 165 design and built to a budget. In order to try to do something about it fixing it, FGW had to send a set away to Wabtec so they could crawl all over it and come up with a way of doing the work that didn't involve tearing the trains apart - which inevitably will have involved more compromise.

As I said previously, there is clearly still an issue when temperatures get to the high 20s and beyond. And FGW will be trying to address that problem, same as the staff at Reading depot will be trying, in the limited time they get each night, to get the a/c systems serviceable again.

 

[transmanche]

And your last sentence says it all - 30C+ is not normal in this country, is it? Not that 25C+ happens that often for extended periods either, as your figures show.

The main thing that the figures show is that the the number of above average temperature days this year is not that different to last year!

 

[Minstral25]

It is stupid, I'm not staff but my train will often arrive on time and leave anything up to a minute late because everyone wants to get on at the first set of doors. Multiply that by a few stations and the delay starts to add up...

It seems to be a common point from Staff on these forums that passengers horde to one end and the train is empty at the back. It is not totally true, the train I catch most morning's from Redhill, I tend to sit in coach 9 of 12 and I have a 50% chance of a seat and by East Croydon the coach is packed like sardines, so we can't all be stupid. I've tried Coach 12 a few times and it is as bad.

I'd hate to think what it is like in the trains mentioned in the article if they are that overcrowded.

It also surprises me the West London Line (and ELL) don't get into these articles. I have often seen people left behind at stations both on and off peak as it is so packed in the trains, but as they are 378's I supposed they were designed to be sardine cans in the first place so are not technically overcrowded.

 

[EM2]

But for northbound trains from East Croydon, aren't the entrances to the platforms nearer the rear?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

It seems to be a common point from Staff on these forums that passengers horde to one end and the train is empty at the back. It is not totally true, the train I catch most morning's from Redhill, I tend to sit in coach 9 of 12 and I have a 50% chance of a seat and by East Croydon the coach is packed like sardines, so we can't all be stupid. I've tried Coach 12 a few times and it is as bad.

Interesting that you should mention Redhill. I did a bit of travelling from there last week on a few different trains and my observations are that:
The passengers range themselves along the platforms, the regulars obviously know where the doors are going to be and,
the trains that I took (06.33 to Farringdon, 06.56 to Farringdon and the 07.11 to Clapham Junction were all pretty well stuffed upon leaving.

 

[Minstral25]

Interesting that you should mention Redhill. I did a bit of travelling from there last week on a few different trains and my observations are that:
The passengers range themselves along the platforms, the regulars obviously know where the doors are going to be and,
the trains that I took (06.33 to Farringdon, 06.56 to Farringdon and the 07.11 to Clapham Junction were all pretty well stuffed upon leaving.

Possibly true - however as you used the lightly loaded FCC services most people get a seat. The services after 7 are very full except the 7:11 as it goes the long way round to Blackfmriars

 

[NSEFAN]

Interesting that you should mention Redhill. I did a bit of travelling from there last week on a few different trains and my observations are that:
The passengers range themselves along the platforms, the regulars obviously know where the doors are going to be and,
the trains that I took (06.33 to Farringdon, 06.56 to Farringdon and the 07.11 to Clapham Junction were all pretty well stuffed upon leaving.

Clearly in this case, the regulars understand the system and make sure they're spread out to improve their chances of getting a seat. Reading commuters on the other hand seem to get a lot of stick on here in particular. Apparently, people will be crowding around the front carriages while there are seats towards the back.

 

[infobleep]

In my case, the "obsession with seats" is for two reasons.
Firstly on local FCC services I dislike standing even for what should be a short journey because I never know when delays of an hour or two will occur, these occur fairly regularly due to heat/cold/bob crow/wind/rain/snow/old signalling/new signalling.
FCC seem to regard trapping a few thousand people on trains as being "just one of those things". After each particularly bad episode is usual to announce another review, but meanwhile I prefer to be seated ready for the next prolonged delay.

On a longer journey, such as Paddington to Taunton, I certainly expect to get a seat for an expensive 2 hour journey.
I normally go first class, and therefore get a seat, but feel some sympathy with those standing in steerage for 2 hours or longer.

Seats are not part of the ticket contract so a simple solution is to take out more seats and that why they can get more people in the train.

Surely legally seats are not required given they are not part of the train ticket. I understand their are people who more health reasons need to sit down but the rest don't.

I think not enough emphasis is placed on the fact seats are not part of the ticket contract. I think rail companies should promote that more. It would be unpopular but it might reduce the numbers travelling on the train. Would reduce their revenue too of course.

Of course I'm just going over the top here but the point still stands that seats are not part of the ticket.

 

[Andrewlong]

Seats are not part of the ticket contract so a simple solution is to take out more seats and that why they can get more people in the train.

Surely legally seats are not required given they are not part of the train ticket. I understand their are people who more health reasons need to sit down but the rest don't.

I think not enough emphasis is placed on the fact seats are not part of the ticket contract. I think rail companies should promote that more. It would be unpopular but it might reduce the numbers travelling on the train. Would reduce their revenue too of course.

Of course I'm just going over the top here but the point still stands that seats are not part of the ticket.

So you would recommend bringing your own folding chair or bean bag should you not wish to stand - assuming there was space to use it?

Any TOC stating that you shouldn't expect to get a seat would be ridiculed by the media and commuters who pay thousands for their season tickets!

The only sensible alternative to overcrowding is reserved seating an no standing as is the case on aircraft. Can't see that working either.

 

[infobleep]

Although it matters to TOCs what the media think, seats are not part of the legal contract. This should be promoted more widely so people understand what they are letting themselves in for.

Let's stop being economical with the truth perhaps.

 

[transmanche]

Although it matters to TOCs what the media think, seats are not part of the legal contract. This should be promoted more widely so people understand what they are letting themselves in for.

Let's stop being economical with the truth perhaps.

It's also worth noting that for some services the nominal passenger capacity includes a standing allowance of approx 35%.

That means for a 200-seat train, having 70 people standing will count as a 100% load factor (i.e. zero passengers in excess of capacity) not a 135% load factor. If the same train is quoted as having a 150% load factor it means there are 200 seated passengers and 205 standing passengers.

So the number of standing passengers may be a lot higher than it first appears.

Looking at one example in the DfT Top Ten; the 18:08 London Bridge to Wimbledon, the implication is that there are approx 320 seats on the 4-car train and although it is carrying 684 passengers, the number of 'passengers in excess of capacity' is just 254 - and the load factor is only 159%.