BBC Article on overcrowding- '100,000 passengers a day stand into London'

[ANorthernGuard]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but on what basis is Bob Crow being a 'fool' ?

No doubt if he didn't speak out on this there would be posters accusing him of ignoring the needs of the passenger.

Don't take the bait, it really isn't worth it and I really don't want a long union bashing thread (again)

 

[NSEFAN]

Don't take the bait, it really isn't worth it and I really don't want a long union bashing thread (again)

I don't think people would be bashing the unions, just Bob himself.

In all seriousness though, there is a lot of ignorance amongst passengers with regard to how our railway industry works. Whenever something breaks, it's the immediate TOC that instantly gets flamed (often unfairly in my view), rather than the real cause of delay which could be Network Rail or even another passenger! When we have overcrowding reported, the TOCs get a lot of blame, when in reality the moneys for buying more rolling stock are heavily controlled by the DfT. For Mr Crow to come out with generalising comments about how a nationalised system would be so much better only contributes towards the ignorance of the public.

 

[stut]

In all seriousness though, there is a lot of ignorance amongst passengers with regard to how our railway industry works. Whenever something breaks, it's the immediate TOC that instantly gets flamed (often unfairly in my view), rather than the real cause of delay which could be Network Rail or even another passenger!

I have sympathy for the TOCs in this regard (the relationship between the different entities isn't, in my view, the healthiest), but if passengers are customers, why should they care?

If I buy some strawberries from Tesco, take the home, and find they're all bashed up, I take them back to Tesco.

If Tesco then say "oh, sorry, but you have to understand, the distribution is done by a third party, so they're responsible for your strawberries getting bashed up in transit", I'm not going to be interested. If the distribution company then say "well, the farm is responsible for packing the strawberries so as not to get all bashed up during distribution", and the farm then say "the packaging manufacturer hasn't made the punnets up to our specifications well enough", then, well, I'm probably going to punch something. Tesco are the ones that need to give me the refund.

Point is, if passengers are customers, then they buy a product from the TOCs. If their product isn't delivered appropriately, then their complaint is with the people who sold them it. If TOCs are willing to take the money (and hike up the fares by the maximum amount they're permitted to) then they can certainly deal with the flack when things go wrong, and take it up with their suppliers on the customer's behalf.

As a wider discussion, sure, definitely take into account the rather dysfunctional aspects of the system, and who is responsible for what. But for day-to-day dealings with the railways? Well, if you run it as a private company, you have to take responsibility for dealing with your customers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but on what basis is Bob Crow being a 'fool' ?

No doubt if he didn't speak out on this there would be posters accusing him of ignoring the needs of the passenger.

Spouts the same crap everytime. Nationalisation is his solution to everything. No real solutions presented.

And yes it is Bob Crow I dislike not the Unions, I have never bashed the unions. He just seems to look back at everything with rose tinted glasses and think it should be that way again. Maybe the railway would be better if he pro-actively tried to adapt to privatisation. We should work with what we have got rather than just complain. (on the forum we can complain obviously :P )

 

[jon0844]

Don't take the bait, it really isn't worth it and I really don't want a long union bashing thread (again)

As said, it's usually Bob that gets the bashing not the union or its members.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I buy some strawberries from Tesco, take the home, and find they're all bashed up, I take them back to Tesco.

If Tesco then say "oh, sorry, but you have to understand, the distribution is done by a third party, so they're responsible for your strawberries getting bashed up in transit", I'm not going to be interested. If the distribution company then say "well, the farm is responsible for packing the strawberries so as not to get all bashed up during distribution", and the farm then say "the packaging manufacturer hasn't made the punnets up to our specifications well enough", then, well, I'm probably going to punch something. Tesco are the ones that need to give me the refund.

Tesco will refund and you can buy some more strawberries. Or if they're all battered, you take your money and go home - or search for some in another supermarket.

With the railway, you complain to the TOC and even if the problem wasn't their fault, they may give you a refund. But that's about all they can do.

Tesco could change its supplier and tomorrow you see a batch of strawberries from another farm or brought in by a different haulage company. What can a TOC do?

 

[Tibbs]

I don't understand why the majority of commuters seem to expect a train in the rush hour to be quiet?

Where's your evidence that they do?

Or is it just anti-commuter prejudice like usual?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Where's your evidence that they do?

Or is it just anti-commuter prejudice like usual?

He is referring to the BBC headline which kind of said it as if it was a shock... Calm down.

 

[stut]

Tesco will refund and you can buy some more strawberries. Or if they're all battered, you take your money and go home - or search for some in another supermarket.

With the railway, you complain to the TOC and even if the problem wasn't their fault, they may give you a refund. But that's about all they can do.

Tesco could change its supplier and tomorrow you see a batch of strawberries from another farm or brought in by a different haulage company. What can a TOC do?

And this is where I believe that the current system is dysfunctional. They can't pick a new supplier. I can't pick a new TOC (I can't even realistically pick another form of transport). Where is the competition?

As someone with an interest in rail travel, sure, I'm interested in knowing what's behind all of this, and how it works. As a customer, though? I just want to get to work and back home again. And if it's not working, I want the company I paid my fare to to sort it out the best they can - including dealing with their suppliers if need be.

(And yes, I realise that the ticketing system can make that far from transparent, too...)

 

[EM2]

Where's your evidence that they do?

Or is it just anti-commuter prejudice like usual?

There are hundreds of comments on social media every day along the lines of 'I pay £3000 a year and don't even get a seat'.

 

[Tibbs]

There are hundreds of comments on social media every day along the lines of 'I pay £3000 a year and don't even get a seat'.

And what % of the total number of commuters do your '100s' make up?

If you think hundreds represents a 'majority' of millions of daily commuters, you may need to resit your maths exams. :roll:

 

[jimm]

What are your thoughts on the Oxford - Marylebone link's impact on Thames Valley overcrowding?

It may take a bit of pressure off, but not that much, as the demand is highest from Reading eastwards, so Crossrail is probably going to be more important in this context.

While trains to/from Didcot and Oxford appear in the most crowded list, the problems are not at the country end of the journeys - people actually heading to Oxford at 18.15ish would be on the 18.22 Hereford HST anyway, not the 18.18 semi-fast, which is shown as running to Radley on the screens at Paddington, and empties out considerably at Maidenhead, which is its first stop.

 

[YorkshireBear]

And what % of the total number of commuters do your '100s' make up?

If you think hundreds represents a 'majority' of millions of daily commuters, you may need to resit your maths exams. :roll:

He didn't say that though did he? He gave you an example of commuters expecting a seat, something you said was just prejudice...

 

[broadgage]

There does seem to be a lack of urgency in the rail industry regarding overcrowding.
Although it is regulary stated that no extra rolling stock is available, other reports speak of relatively new rolling stock being returned to the leasing company.
As an example, when the new TOC took over services from London Liverpool street, one of there first actions was to downgrade long distance services from 12 car intercity trains to 8 car suburban units with high density seating.
Reports at the time stated that the 12 car trains were returned to the leasing company.
Presumably they could have kept some of them ?

Quite recently I remember seeing mark II coaches for sale, with little interest.
Could not these have been used short term ?

As soon as some of the new proposed inter city trains are delivered, I suspect that there will be a great rush to scrap existing stock.
No question of keeping the old AS WELL for a few years to provide more capacity ?

And going furthur back I remember the great rush to scrap all the slam door Southern EMUs as soon as SOME of the wretched networkers had been delivered. I had years of standing on 4 car and 6 car networkers when I would have got a seat on an old 8 car train.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Southern EMUs were withdrawn as they were deemed unsafe.

 

[anti-pacer]

I'm wondering whether this takes into account people who purposefully travel on a train because it takes 10 mins less to get to their destination than another service that they are likely to get a seat?

Case in point:

07.30 Colchester - London liv st - always full and standing by Manningtree but takes about 53 mins Liverpool st.
07.33 Colchester - London liv st - takes 13 mins longer but is a 12 car and usually quite a few spare seats at the rear of the train

A lot of passengers board the 07.30 even though then know it is one of the busiest trains of the day but then complain that they never get a seat.....

I don't mean to be picky, but how can a train from Colchester to London be full by Manningtree when that's before Colchester?

Or is the 0730 Colchester - Liverpool Street a train that originates further up the line?

Again, not meaning to be picky, but just wondering?

 

[broadgage]

Southern EMUs were withdrawn as they were deemed unsafe.

This is true, and I suspect that HSTs will suddenly become unsafe once some of the new trains have been delivered.

 

[HowardGWR]

Interesting discussion. If a theatre (for example) noted that it was turning away customers every night, it would not be long before admission prices were raised. I note that all the worst overcrowding examples were on commuter trains to London. Surely the solution is clear in a free market economy. I imagine Boris Johnson's ex-constituents (Henley remember) are that well-heeled they could easily pay more?

 

[dk1]

I don't mean to be picky, but how can a train from Colchester to London be full by Manningtree when that's before Colchester?

Or is the 0730 Colchester - Liverpool Street a train that originates further up the line?

Again, not meaning to be picky, but just wondering?

It's the 06.24 ex-Norwich. Both this & the 06.00 (07.05 Colchester) can be standing room only from Manningtree.

 

[anti-pacer]

It's the 06.24 ex-Norwich. Both this & the 06.00 (07.05 Colchester) can be standing room only from Manningtree.

Ah right, that explains it then. Thought it must be a train that starts before Colchester.

 

[tbtc]

12 car 377 sets on Thameslink North are now the worst crowded peak trains - regular standing southbound from Harpendon , and from City Thameslink northbound pm peak

This is a serious problem.

Overcrowding* on a 30m Pacer can be solved by replacing it with a 40m Sprinter (or better). Nothing clever and complicated required.

But how do you solve crowding on a twelve coach service? No easy solutions there.

I don't think people would be bashing the unions, just Bob himself.

If Mr Crow concentrated on representing his members, he wouldn't get the stick that he does. Unions like ASLEF seem to function pretty well (and look after their members terms/conditions) without the rentaquote stuff or the Have I Got News For You appearances.

While trains to/from Didcot and Oxford appear in the most crowded list, the problems are not at the country end of the journeys

That's the danger with these lists. The Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough service on last year's list would have been virtually empty at Manchester Airport (half six in the morning) and not overcrowded at Middlesbrough either, but very busy on the Huddersfield - Leeds section.

This was the first train for half an hour in the morning, before the fifteen minute frequency kicked in, so got disproportionately busy. But some people could look at it and think it was a problem for the full journey (or something to do with either end).

How do we manage the peak "bubbles" without needing to send 200m trains well beyond these points?

(* - I don't like the use of "overcrowding" in modern parlance - it often means "I didn't get a seat" or "I had to sit next to a stranger" rather than "the train was dangerously loaded above its safe maximum", but I think that some of the loadings on here warrant use of the word)

 

[Ironside]

Certainly impracticle to enforce but in order to stop commuters cramming into the first carriage offer season tickets with 10% reduction if they sit in the rear carriage and 10% premium to sit in the frontmost carrage.

 

[142094]

But how do you solve crowding on a twelve coach service? No easy solutions there.

Only two ways really to increase capacity - either lengthen trains, or of course, speed them up. Bit like how do we reduce traffic jams - can't keep on building roads for ever.

 

[yorksrob]

This is a serious problem.

Overcrowding* on a 30m Pacer can be solved by replacing it with a 40m Sprinter (or better). Nothing clever and complicated required.

But how do you solve crowding on a twelve coach service? No easy solutions there.

It is. Will there be any scope to increase the number of services in future, given that Thameslink will get more trains, but will also have to serve a larger number or Northern routes ?

 

[xfield]

Why is there an obsession with seats? Longer journeys warrant seats, but not the shorter local journeys. I accept some people need to, but not everybody. I prefer to stand, as then I have leg room - I don't fit into the high density five to a row seating that is crammed on to Northern (and I assume the rest).

I did see a picture of a London Overground train where the seating ran the sides with standing room in the middle (like the underground). Far better - you'll fit more people in, and they'll be able to get in and out quicker.

 

[WatcherZero]

One thing that is done to try and even out loads is through station design to alternate the platform entrance front, back or middle of the platform along the line. On long platforms people dont evenly spread out as much as they could but find a comfotable distance from the platform entrance where its not too packed with other waiting passengers.

 

[185143]

The Heathrow Connect service can't be that bad - assuming no-one commutes from Heathrow itself, that's a 22 min journey at most on an air-conditioned 360.

Yeah compared to my 40 minute rammed commute on an ex-Merseyrail 142!!!

Hence the signature...

 

[broadgage]

Why is there an obsession with seats? Longer journeys warrant seats, but not the shorter local journeys. I accept some people need to, but not everybody. I prefer to stand, as then I have leg room - I don't fit into the high density five to a row seating that is crammed on to Northern (and I assume the rest).

I did see a picture of a London Overground train where the seating ran the sides with standing room in the middle (like the underground). Far better - you'll fit more people in, and they'll be able to get in and out quicker.

In my case, the "obsession with seats" is for two reasons.
Firstly on local FCC services I dislike standing even for what should be a short journey because I never know when delays of an hour or two will occur, these occur fairly regularly due to heat/cold/bob crow/wind/rain/snow/old signalling/new signalling.
FCC seem to regard trapping a few thousand people on trains as being "just one of those things". After each particularly bad episode is usual to announce another review, but meanwhile I prefer to be seated ready for the next prolonged delay.

On a longer journey, such as Paddington to Taunton, I certainly expect to get a seat for an expensive 2 hour journey.
I normally go first class, and therefore get a seat, but feel some sympathy with those standing in steerage for 2 hours or longer.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I'd be interested if they recorded overcrowding of the first off-peak services from certain population hubs.

Take the 0754 Birmingham New Street to London Euston stopping service operated by London Midland. It's the first off-peak service from Milton Keynes Central to London (I'm not sure about earlier stops) and every time I've used it it's been jam-packed by Tring. There was about 10 passengers plus luggage and a bicycle (fold-up, mind) in the vestibule with people lined up in the gangways including the first class section.

I remember it used to be formed of two 350s, but LM decided to curtail it to just the one which is woefully inadequate for the average weekday loading. I presume there's some ulterior motive behind it, possibly to get that train to become peak by claiming overcrowding or something?

There is the 0925 semi-fast Northampton to London Euston which arrives at Milton Keynes Central 0941 and is always formed of two 350s. It arrives at Euston just nine minutes later than the 0922 and is practically half empty.

In case you're wondering why I didn't just get on the 0941, I travel on advance tickets. I always forget the 0922 is a crowded sweatpit and forget to plan accordingly!

 

[HowardGWR]

Only two ways really to increase capacity - either lengthen trains, or of course, speed them up. Bit like how do we reduce traffic jams - can't keep on building roads for ever.

Use price - like I suggested earlier. The congestion charge works (could work better) so just extend it to other roads and railway tickets in the peak.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Congestion pricing has been tried on various routes and not just in the UK - basic fact is that most folk need to be in work (particularly office workers for the 0800 onwards period) and the incentive of saving a few pence / pounds to travel just before the peak is less of an incentive than getting out of a warm bed in the depths of winter. Plus - transferring the peak load to before the "main peak" may transfer rolling stock to the wrong place.

"Free market economics" may be OK in a theoretical textbook - but you have to factor in human behaviour. In any case - the London Congestion charge damped down demand for a few months - but you can hardly tell the difference now as the overall market has grown - and the challenge is meeting it in an "economic way" ...