BBC Article on overcrowding- '100,000 passengers a day stand into London'

[westv]

How does congestion charging square with the demand that more people should be encouraged to use public transport?

 

[jimm]

This is true, and I suspect that HSTs will suddenly become unsafe once some of the new trains have been delivered.

No, they won't, because they have a monocoque body, rather than separate underframes and coachwork which the Mk1 and the earlier Southern Railway-derived slam-door emus did, with all the inherent risks that such designs posed in crashes, such as Clapham Junction in 1988.

I don't know why you and others keep going on about stock being scrapped (see the IEP on East Coast thread in relation to Mk4s) - many of the Mk3s now in use as part of extended HST formations, or on the Chiltern Line and in East Anglia, spelt periods in store, often rather long, after being taken off the West Coast - they weren't dispatched instantly to a scrapyard, were they?

The Southern emus had mostly given 30-40 years' service before they were dispatched, never mind the safety issues.

Mk2s with end doors would be a a nightmare to use on commuter duties in the Thames Valley, to Waterloo or in West Yorkshire - which is where the capacity is needed.

 

[reb0118]

How would a renationalized railway possibly solve the problem overnight? He [Crow] offers no real solution at all.

By employing economies of scale. NB this would also apply to a privately operated monopoly.

 

[ainsworth74]

By employing economies of scale. NB this would also apply to a privately operated monopoly.

So was there no overcrowding when BR was around? After all it was able to employ economies of scale

 

[tbtc]

So was there no overcrowding when BR was around? After all it was able to employ economies of scale

...and everyone got a seat that lined up perfectly with the rose tinted window...

 

[yorksrob]

Mk2s with end doors would be a a nightmare to use on commuter duties in the Thames Valley, to Waterloo or in West Yorkshire - which is where the capacity is needed.

To be fair, if you employed a few Mk2's on some of the longer distance routes (Settle - Carlisle, Bristol - Weymouth for example) as has happened on occasions in the past, you could shuffle some of the units onto crowded commuter services.

 

[Dave1987]

If renationalisation was the magic cure to all the overcrowding problems I would expect people like Crow to present substantive evidence to show this. Otherwise his claims are just hot air really.

 

[YorkshireBear]

To be fair, if you employed a few Mk2's on some of the longer distance routes (Settle - Carlisle, Bristol - Weymouth for example) as has happened on occasions in the past, you could shuffle some of the units onto crowded commuter services.

Yeah I think that is the only way to use them really. As FGW just put out a tender for Cardiff Taunton too. Cascade 150s/156s/153s/158s all onto the commuter lines. Shame the Glow-ex never took off either.
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...and everyone got a seat that lined up perfectly with the rose tinted window...

Comment of the year.

 

[Trog]

...and everyone got a seat that lined up perfectly with the rose tinted window...

That was not rose tint, it was ingrained iron dust from the brake blocks.

 

[transmanche]

How does congestion charging square with the demand that more people should be encouraged to use public transport?

Income from the Congestion Charge is used to subsidise the bus network.

For example; in 2007/2008 net revenue (after operational costs, etc) for London's congestion charge zone was £137M. Of that, £112M was spent on; iBus (the system that tells you where the bus is, etc) improvements to bus stations & bus shelters and the provision of illuminated bus stops.

 

[Deerfold]

Income from the Congestion Charge is used to subsidise the bus network.

For example; in 2007/2008 net revenue (after operational costs, etc) for London's congestion charge zone was £137M. Of that, £112M was spent on; iBus (the system that tells you where the bus is, etc) improvements to bus stations & bus shelters and the provision of illuminated bus stops.

I think wetv was questioning the suggestion that a similar "congestion charge" could help price people off trains at peak times.

Of course if you're charging for people both on-road and on trains, eventually you price people out of their jobs.

 

[transmanche]

I think wetv was questioning the suggestion that a similar "congestion charge" could help price people off trains at peak times.

Ah right. Well it's one situation where creative use of smartcards would help. Season tickets that give you a discount for travelling on quieter trains is one example - and there are a number of different ways this could be implemented:

• PAYG with graduated farescales for the busiest services
• Off-peak/shoulder-peak seasons - with peak time supplement charged for if need to travel in high-peak
• Refund on standard season ticket if travelling at shoulder-peak/off-peak times
• Three/four return journeys per week seasons (for those who can also work from home)

And so on.

 

[Deerfold]

Ah right. Well it's one situation where creative use of smartcards would help. Season tickets that give you a discount for travelling on quieter trains is one example - and there are a number of different ways this could be implemented:

• PAYG with graduated farescales for the busiest services
• Off-peak/shoulder-peak seasons - with peak time supplement charged for if need to travel in high-peak
• Refund on standard season ticket if travelling at shoulder-peak/off-peak times
• Three/four return journeys per week seasons (for those who can also work from home)

And so on.

They're all great - but many employers are still fairly rigid about working hours (I'm lucky enough to work in a post which is fairly flexible but I still need to start before 1000).

 

[transmanche]

They're all great - but many employers are still fairly rigid about working hours (I'm lucky enough to work in a post which is fairly flexible but I still need to start before 1000).

Oh yes. And there are plenty of jobs that simply can't be flexible.

Transport operators have been trying to encourage flexible working since WWII, least. Until now there's been no 'carrot' to encourage a change in behaviour. Here's a 1943 LT poster:

Source: LT Museum collection

 

[SWT_USER]

The Heathrow Connect service can't be that bad - assuming no-one commutes from Heathrow itself, that's a 22 min journey at most on an air-conditioned 360.

That Heathrow connect service is horrible, thankfully since I moved office I never have to commute on it but now that I travel in the opposite direction I see it at Hayes on its inward journey. The problem is commuters at Hayes and Southall will wait for a 5 car air conditioned 360 and a guaranteed a seat rather than get a 165/166 which has plenty of standing room. This means the train is full and standing by West Ealing - where the trains that have stopped at Southall/ Hayes pass through without stopping. I have seen people left on the platform there. Its even worse over summer since FGW have stopped bothering with maintaining the air con on their 166's.

 

[jon0844]

Oh yes. And there are plenty of jobs that simply can't be flexible.

There are certainly some, but I expect there are more than could operate a flexi-time scheme (with set 'core' hours).

I have no idea how many would need to do this to make a difference.

 

[yorksrob]

That Heathrow connect service is horrible, thankfully since I moved office I never have to commute on it but now that I travel in the opposite direction I see it at Hayes on its inward journey. The problem is commuters at Hayes and Southall will wait for a 5 car air conditioned 360 and a guaranteed a seat rather than get a 165/166 which has plenty of standing room. This means the train is full and standing by West Ealing - where the trains that have stopped at Southall/ Hayes pass through without stopping. I have seen people left on the platform there. Its even worse over summer since FGW have stopped bothering with maintaining the air con on their 166's.

Waiting longer for a seat on a train rather than cramming on the first eastern can that comes along - that sounds improbably rational for morning commuters

 

[SWT_USER]

Waiting longer for a seat on a train rather than cramming on the first eastern can that comes along - that sounds improbably rational for morning commuters

Well at Hayes at least the Heathrow connect is only a couple of minutes behind the train before (which is usually late anyway). The FGW drivers even announce that there's an empty 5 car train directly behind.

 

[crewmeal]

Not looking good for our TOCs. At least farm animals don't have to pay!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/10204791/Rail-passengers-demand-same-rights-as-farm-animals.html

 

[ainsworth74]

As has been mentioned before, no-one is forcing them to get on the train. Animals on the other hand...

 

[HSTEd]

Well my solution involves Crossrails 3-5 and probably some more after that.....

 

[island]

This is true, and I suspect that HSTs will suddenly become unsafe once some of the new trains have been delivered.

Pacers are gone soon due to accessibility concerns if I am not mistaken.

 

[tbtc]

Bob Crow, general secretary of the RMT union added: ''It defies belief that there is no requirement on train operators to monitor temperatures on their trains while even cattle trucks have some legal protection.
''British train users are treated worse than animals in transit by the money grabbing private operators. Fact.''

Saying "fact" at the end of your contribution to a conversation? Bob Crow is sounding more like David Brent as time goes on...

I don't think that it defies belief that there is no requirement on train operators to monitor temperatures on their trains if there's no legal maximum/ minimum temperature.

And if the train exceeded this temperature, presumably we'd just cancel it? That'd not inconvenience anyone in central London at rush hour, would it?

 

[yorksrob]

Better off with droplights IMO. At least whether hot or cold, it's down to nature, and your own response (i.e to put on a coat or stand by a window !).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Better off with droplights IMO. At least whether hot or cold, it's down to nature, and your own response (i.e to put on a coat or stand by a window !).

The Summer sights of the past - a 4 VEP in full cry on a hot day with flapping window curtains (orange ones - before they were removed on economy grounds)

 

[transmanche]

As has been mentioned before, no-one is forcing them to get on the train. Animals on the other hand...

Well I hardly think that "At least you're not getting a bolt in the head at the end of your journey" is really a valid excuse though!

Even though commuters may not be 'forced' to travel in excessively hot conditions, for many people there is no practical alternative. And surely we should be trying to make rail travel more (and not less) attractive.

Rail passengers are pleading for the same legal protection as farm animals after it emerged that train operators can carry commuters in temperatures which would be illegal for cattle, goats and pigs.

For "it emerged" read "I just cottoned on to the fact". The Evening Standard ran an identical story four years ago...

Temperatures on some parts of the Tube were already so high they made the network officially unfit for transporting cattle.

And I'm sure I remember reading similar stories back in the 90s.

'British train users are treated worse than animals in transit by the money grabbing private operators. Fact.'

I bet most of you don't need more than one guess to work out who said this...

 

[yorksrob]

The Summer sights of the past - a 4 VEP in full cry on a hot day with flapping window curtains (orange ones - before they were removed on economy grounds)

Indeed, although sadly the flapping orange curtains had largely gone by my time

 

[Dave1987]

Well I guess that mean the next time the temperature in a carriage reaches 30.1 degrees Celsius the train is terminated at the next station and passengers turfed off for their own welfare. That won't cause chaos will it :roll:

Plus I would like to know during an emergency when the OHLE is turned off how they propose to keep the air con running?

P.s As a member of ASLEF I do not agree all with Mick Whelans comments. I know a lot of drivers are seriously considering whether they want to continue being part of ASLEF........

 

[transmanche]

Well I guess that mean the next time the temperature in a carriage reaches 30.1 degrees Celsius the train is terminated at the next station and passengers turfed off for their own welfare. That won't cause chaos will it :roll:

No, but paying a bit of compensation ('You sweat, You get'?) for the inconvenience might be an idea. Personally I'd prefer a steady supply of cold drinks.

 

[HSTEd]

Electric IEPs will be able to maintain air con in the absence of OHLE supply.

What is the draw from a 4-car commuter unit's air conditioning system?