East Coast IEPs Ordered - Class 800

[D365]

Not to mention AC traction. 91s were super-advanced but the were the last DC-motored, I believe.

This previous topic should be of relevance. To be honest, most of the time I suppose it is easier to buy new rather than rebuild an existing locomotive. Perhaps that is why 66s were built in the end, instead of more 57s. A new build might have been considered around the time when 43 HST life-extension had been proposed.

 

[ainsworth74]

All of that does not equate to simple re-gearing and handling of large TE.

I was thinking that. If it was simple then surely it would have been done at their last major overhaul (when the went from 910xx to 911xx) as by that point it would have been obvious that they're never going to need 140mph in service?

 

[Loki]

Hasn't Eversholt already confirmed if they are to keep the MK4s in use it will be with Traxx? While they might be cascaded now to other lines this does not make the 91s a better option.

 

[captainbigun]

Not to mention AC traction. 91s were super-advanced but the were the last DC-motored, I believe.

Inverter drive = AC traction
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I was thinking that. If it was simple then surely it would have been done at their last major overhaul (when the went from 910xx to 911xx) as by that point it would have been obvious that they're never going to need 140mph in service?

No real gain as it happens.

Changing from 140 to 75 or 90 is a different kettle of fish.

 

[route:oxford]

Can you name the competitor to FGW out of Paddington?

In future? TfL - or whoever will operate Crossrail.

 

[HSTEd]

Perhaps you could all hope that some rich benefactor, perhaps even the Duke of Cornwall?, would find some money to pay for a European electrification crew to come in and wire up between Westbury and Penzance (and possibly the branches).
I wonder how much that would cost if you specified low speed equipment west of Plymouth to keep the cost down......
Baring that I don't see any use for the 225s as a cohesive fleet.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hasn't Eversholt already confirmed if they are to keep the MK4s in use it will be with Traxx? While they might be cascaded now to other lines this does not make the 91s a better option.

Not since this announcement, it was an option they offered instead of IEP on the ECML.

No real gain as it happens.

Changing from 140 to 75 or 90 is a different kettle of fish.

Interesting, thanks

 

[WatcherZero]

Work has begun by DCA International in Warwick to build a full scale mockup of the interior design, theyve released images of the design of first and standard class and the mockup under construction which will be used to certify its DDA access and final colour choices.

Couple more images.

These images seem to have been released a week ago but while being picked up by international press wernt picked up by UK press. Dont know why they seem to have two shades of first class and two different seat covers for standard, perhaps illustrating options they will try.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Looks like the seats have access to a window good start

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like the seats have access to a window good start

Well, one row anyway.
Looks a bit iffy further back.
Looks spacious overall though.

The pictures were originally linked in the DfT announcement (in the DfT twitter feed I think).

 

[LexyBoy]

Look like very high backed seats like on FGW, which will make it seem rather claustrophobic in the airline seats (I realise that some people like to have no view of the carriage). Other than that, looks quite nice and airy. The vestibules look good, wasn't sure how they would feel from the plans. Didn't see any luggage space though (but having some back-to-back seating is a start).

Interesting to see the old-fashioned mockup.

 

[Fred26]

Interesting to see cycle racks within the coaches.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Looks very similar to the images for the MkIV refurb to me :/

 

[anthony263]

I think a lot of people are looking forward to seeing this mockup which should be completed before being unveiled in September.

Certainly I hope the interiors are similar to the class 180's although with a lot more seats rather than like the voyagers/meridians

 

[jon0844]

High backed seats are presumably not a design preference, but a requirement?

 

[starrymarkb]

High backed seats are presumably not a design preference, but a requirement?

They are indeed and have been for several years now. All new seats must be high backed

 

[LexyBoy]

They are indeed and have been for several years now. All new seats must be high backed

There's still quite a bit of variability though. FGW's seats are very high which I very much dislike in an airline configuration. Seating on the 395s, Voyagers & current EC stock I find absolutely fine.

The seats in the renders look like they have decent headrests though, the lack of which is another gripe I have for most high-backed seats.

 

[starrymarkb]

Noise and vibration *does* matter to customers, why do you think Boeing and Airbus put so much effort into making the newer generation of planes quieter inside than the ones they replace if passengers don't actually care?

Because a turbofan is magnificently louder than a turbodiesel. It's absolutely incomparable.

I think for the layman, it blends in enough that if you asked whether they preferred the electric or the diesel, they'd reply with "I hadn't even thought about it". Especially when in an EMU or even LHCS, there are still a variety of compressor fans, air con, transformers, etc all whirring away.

I'd say Boeing and Airbus are not good examples. A more interesting comparison would be with Bombardier's Q Series Turboprops (aka the Dash 8) which are fitted with an active Noise and Vibration Suppression system, this works (or more often then not doesn't as it's proven temperamental in service) by a system of speakers that play the opposite of the engine noise to cancel it out (or at least reduce the volume in the cabin). There are also actuators that vibrate the cabin walls to cancel out vibration from the engines. Unfortunately its apparently rare to find a Dash with the system working!

More info is here - http://www2.bombardier.com/q400/en/quiet.jsp

 

[jon0844]

I can't imagine how a Bombardier plane could ever vibrate in the first place? Can't they build them to the same standard as their trains?

 

[rebmcr]

There's still quite a bit of variability though. FGW's seats are very high which I very much dislike in an airline configuration. Seating on the 395s, Voyagers & current EC stock I find absolutely fine.

I don't mind cosy seating at all (I find Pendos really nice to settle down in), but Mk4s are a bit claustrophobic and cramped for me. Perhaps it's the darker colour scheme.

 

[joeykins82]

Are you sure you're not confusing the two? I find that the combination of tapered walls, limited window view in Std and very poor lighting (apart from carriages F & U or the new sets) makes the pendos feel very cramped and claustrophobic, whereas EC Mk4s are bright and roomy.

 

[Dave1987]

According to Rail the annual cost for both the great western and east coast franchise holders will be a combined cost of £539 million! WOW that's expense. According to Rail the current cost of the fleet of mk4's on the east coast is £82 million excluding maintenance costs. The new franchise holders will be forced to use the new IEP trains.

I really do fail to see how fares will not increase if these trains are going to be that expensive.

 

[AndyLandy]

According to Rail the annual cost for both the great western and east coast franchise holders will be a combined cost of £539 million! WOW that's expense. According to Rail the current cost of the fleet of mk4's on the east coast is £82 million excluding maintenance costs. The new franchise holders will be forced to use the new IEP trains.

I really do fail to see how fares will not increase if these trains are going to be that expensive.

Hmm, that's quite a difference! I wonder if the IEP costs may cover much more. I'd really like to think they're not that ludicrously more expensive than the current stock.

 

[Dave1987]

Hmm, that's quite a difference! I wonder if the IEP costs may cover much more. I'd really like to think they're not that ludicrously more expensive than the current stock.

That is the cost annual cost of both the great western and east coast combined but even at say £270 million annual cost for each line that still makes them over twice as expensive as the current stock on the east coast. A TOC would have to increase fares to pay for the big increase in leasing costs.

 

[ModernRailways]

That is the cost annual cost of both the great western and east coast combined but even at say £270 million annual cost for each line that still makes them over twice as expensive as the current stock. A TOC would have to increase fares to pay for the big increase in leasing costs.

But as said the current MK4 and HSTs doesn't include Maintenance costs. Maybe this includes all costs, except for any that may be unexpected.

I highly doubt that they will be costing that much without any extra benefits. Maybe it includes a dedicated, trained team from Hitachi who will help out to maintain them at depots.

 

[AndyLandy]

That is the cost annual cost of both the great western and east coast combined but even at say £270 million annual cost for each line that still makes them over twice as expensive as the current stock on the east coast. A TOC would have to increase fares to pay for the big increase in leasing costs.

Don't forget that we're not replacing just the IC225s though. That cost covers replacement trains for ~30 IC225 sets and ~70 IC125 sets. Would be interesting to see the HST costs alongside these figures.

 

[Dave1987]

But as said the current MK4 and HSTs doesn't include Maintenance costs. Maybe this includes all costs, except for any that may be unexpected.

I highly doubt that they will be costing that much without any extra benefits. Maybe it includes a dedicated, trained team from Hitachi who will help out to maintain them at depots.

I really hope it does otherwise they are going to to be very expensive trains. According to Rail Hitachi will have to provide 86% availability. Even if the cost of maintenance of the current fleet was the same as the leasing costs I.e £80m then the new IEP trains would still cost about £100m a year more.

 

[tbtc]

According to Rail the annual cost for both the great western and east coast franchise holders will be a combined cost of £539 million! WOW that's expense. According to Rail the current cost of the fleet of mk4's on the east coast is £82 million excluding maintenance costs. The new franchise holders will be forced to use the new IEP trains.

I really do fail to see how fares will not increase if these trains are going to be that expensive.

So roughly a hundred trains (including maintenance costs etc) will cost a lot more than roughly thirty trains?

 

[ModernRailways]

I wouldn't read too much into it right now. Just wait it out and actually see what really happens. Like I say, I doubt they would cost that much more without some sort of benefits.

 

[Dave1987]

One other interesting point from Rail. They asked the DFT how the costs of the new IEP fleet would has compared to the Eversholt plan over 20 odd years. The response from the DFT said basically they calculated that over 30 years they thought the IEP presented better value for money. But it doesn't seem that the provided Rail with any figures to show this. Hmmm....

IEP may well prove to be value for money when the full figures come out but initial figures don't look great.
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So roughly a hundred trains (including maintenance costs etc) will cost a lot more than roughly thirty trains?

So you split the £539m into two to roughly get the cost of just the east coast IEP's and you get £270m that's still very expensive. Plus I doubt the maintenance costs for the current fleet would be that much. These are going to be expensive trains.