East Coast IEPs Ordered - Class 800

[Failed Unit]

If you could resolve the Kings Lynn issue, Kings Cross - Cambridge would be great for 225s.

I can't seem them making the line acceptable for loco-haulage.

2 Options that have the problem of a longer journey time.

1. Send the route back into Liverpool Street via Harlow. (Don't expect that to be popular and can't think of many benefits)
2. Use the semi-fast path (but this will go over to Thamelink I believe which will give the same issues?)

But there are many other routes the 225 could make at home, the XC routes already mentioned, TPE, Hull trains (if wired), Sunderland - London with a little dragging.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I completely disagree. Dwell times would be horrendous, not to mention the lack of acceleration. Then there are the issues with the power supply, Hitchin to Cambridge and Cherry Hinton to Kings Lynn. Not going to happen!

Would that be a problem on the London - Cambridge non-stop journeys? The 91 and 365s have little to chose in thier times to Welwyn North. But considering then you are nearly at Hitchin maybe a 125mph capable train won't make much difference.

 

[jon0844]

the plant in Newton Ayrcliffe is going to be akin to your front room after a trip to Ikea.

I somehow pictured Bombardier's Derby factory as being the place where staff are just kitted out with a screwdriver, allen key and hammer.

(and then wondering what to do with a load of left over bolts and plugs after the train has been sent on its way)

 

[sprinterguy]

Where will the depots be based for the IEP?

Doncaster will be the principal depot for IEP on the East Coast. Existing depots will also be upgraded to service the new trains, so presumably Bounds Green, Craigentinny and perhaps Heaton will also be able to stable and perform light maintenance on the units.

The dedicated IEP depots on the Great Western will be at North Pole (On the site of the old Eurostar facility opposite Old Oak Common), Bristol (Stoke Gifford) and Swansea. Existing sites at Worcester, Cardiff, Exeter and, interestingly, Plymouth Laira, are earmarked to be upgraded to additionally undertake overnight servicing of the IEP trains.

 

[The Ham]

... and, interestingly, Plymouth Laira, are earmarked to be upgraded to additionally undertake overnight servicing of the IEP trains.

IIRC isn't that because there may well be some services to Plymouth that could be run as IEP.

 

[captainbigun]

I somehow pictured Bombardier's Derby factory as being the place where staff are just kitted out with a screwdriver, allen key and hammer.

(and then wondering what to do with a load of left over bolts and plugs after the train has been sent on its way)

Harsh, but fair.

 

[ModernRailways]

I somehow pictured Bombardier's Derby factory as being the place where staff are just kitted out with a screwdriver, allen key and hammer.

(and then wondering what to do with a load of left over bolts and plugs after the train has been sent on its way)

I went for a tour around the place last year. It literally was just a pile of parts that needed to be put together. Here's a video going around the test track and here's a video by someone who came along

 

[Stats]

Doncaster will be the principal depot for IEP on the East Coast. Existing depots will also be upgraded to service the new trains, so presumably Bounds Green, Craigentinny and perhaps Heaton will also be able to stable and perform light maintenance on the units.

Aberdeen Clayhills, Inverness, Craigentinny, Heaton, Ferme Park and Neville Hill will all accept IEP for maintenance. No IEP staff will be located at Bounds Green but they can, on request, have access to the maintenance shed to carry out repairs as and when required.

 

[transmanche]

No IEP staff will be located at Bounds Green but they can, on request, have access to the maintenance shed to carry out repairs as and when required.

What work will be left for Bounds Green to do when all of the ICEC fleet is IEP?

 

[Stats]

Good point. That was the agreement based on when ICEC were keeping the 225s so I expect the new agreement may have changed this.

 

[rebmcr]

I've been following this thread for the last few days and the following realisation just hit me like a brick:

Nobody has announced the 225s are being replaced.

For all we know, they'll be staying on the ECML alongside IEP for their remaining 10 years, to account for growth. Possibly on different patterns, to account for their worse acceleration.

 

[transmanche]

I've been following this thread for the last few days and the following realisation just hit me like a brick:

Nobody has announced the 225s are being replaced.

For all we know, they'll be staying on the ECML alongside IEP for their remaining 10 years, to account for growth. Possibly on different patterns, to account for their worse acceleration.

In his ministerial statement, the Transport Secretary said:

The option is to purchase a further 270 vehicles to replace the electric Intercity 225 fleet which currently runs on the East Coast Main Line with a fleet of new, high quality, modern, higher capacity class 800 series 9-car electric trains. [...] Train capacity will be 627 seats per train, 18% higher than the stock they are replacing...

... which suggests to me that the 225s are actually being replaced, not supplemented.

 

[HSTEd]

You want to order 30 9-car IEPs to account for 'growth'?
That's absurd.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've been following this thread for the last few days and the following realisation just hit me like a brick:

Nobody has announced the 225s are being replaced.

For all we know, they'll be staying on the ECML alongside IEP for their remaining 10 years, to account for growth. Possibly on different patterns, to account for their worse acceleration.

The statement to parliament definitely did announce it - this is the wording:

I have decided to exercise an option that was contained in the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) contract, signed in July 2012 with Agility Trains, a consortium made up of Hitachi and John Laing.

The option is to purchase a further 270 vehicles to replace the electric Intercity 225 fleet which currently runs on the East Coast Main Line with a fleet of new, high quality, modern, higher capacity class 800 series 9-car electric trains.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/intercity-express-programme

 

[jimm]

In an election as tight as 2015 is likely to be, and, frankly, 2020 is likely to be too, headline improvements in areas with marginal seats will be increasingly common. Indeed, just look at the recent announcements and the constituency MPs:

- Maidenhead to LHR (£500m) (Theresa May, Maidenhead)
- Electric Spine to Sheffield (Nick Clegg,Sheffield Hallam)
- Northern Hub (Coalition in general, George Osborne, Tatton, in particular)
- Oxford (Marginal Tory/Lib Dem seats)
- Cotswold Line (D Cameron, Whitney)
- GOBLIN electrification (Boris / TfL)

Not that there's a conspiracy, but the prioritisation is interesting. East Anglia has some key marginal seats (Ipswich, Norwich) and throwing something out on GEML (rather than the £3.7bn proposed last summer) would be good - 91s / Mark IVs @ 110mph would work well (Presuming that a 91 / Mk IV rake accelerate at least as fast as 90 / Mk III?)

Toby

Recent announcements? What recent announcement has there been about the Cotswold Line? The redoubling was authorised under the last Government and begun while it was still in office. It would take the biggest upset of all time for the Witney constituency not to elect a Tory. Same goes for Maidenhead.

The Oxford West & Abingdon seat is indeed a marginal - between the Tories and Lib Dems, so who exactly is supposed to benefit there?

I think people in Sheffield care rather more about the Midland Main Line being electrified than the Electric Spine, not that either is likely to weight heavily on the minds of the voters of Sheffield Hallam in the big scheme of things.

The benefits of the Northern Hub for Tatton are frankly pretty slim compared with most other areas around Manchester, given that it sits on lines running south and south-west from Piccadilly which are basically untouched by the scheme.

Goblin runs through a swathe of Labour-held Parliamentary constituencies, where overhead wiring of a railway line is hardly likely to change a thing.

As conspiracy (or prioritisation) theories go, it's not much of one. You could play the same game with announcements by the last Labour government such as GWML wiring - fat lot of good it did them in places like Swindon, Reading, Gloucester and Worcester.

 

[Photohunter71]

So if Eversholt decided to replace the 91's with Traxx,would they also have a changeover of locomotive for the Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness as we don't exactly know the range of the "Last mile" diesel engine in Traxx? Would a tag on order of 68's for the Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness route be in their plans too? Personally I think if Traxx is ordered to replace the 91's they will have to think about 68's too. That would increase costs,slow down running time with a changeover of loco at Waverley,I can't see the profitability in that no matter how much I'd welcome loco hauled train travel.

 

[ainsworth74]

Why would you need to change locomotive? There are bi-mode IEPs for north of Edinburgh services...

 

[Photohunter71]

That's what I understand to be the case,but it is suggested that Eversholt rail who own/lease the 91's are thinking about Traxx and coaching stock as discussed further up the thread in this topic.

 

[ainsworth74]

That's what I understand to be the case,but it is suggested that Eversholt rail who own/lease the 91's are thinking about Traxx and coaching stock as discussed further up the thread in this topic.

Before electric only IEP was being orderd to replace the 225s they were considering refurbishing the Mk4s and then replacing the 91s with Traxx. But even then there was going to be bi-mode IEP for north of Edinburgh services so there wouldn't be a need for diesel locomotives.

However now that it has I would suggest that all of Eversholts previous plans have been placed on hold.

 

[sprinterguy]

That's what I understand to be the case,but it is suggested that Eversholt rail who own/lease the 91's are thinking about Traxx and coaching stock as discussed further up the thread in this topic.

Yes, but if these proposals do come to anything, then it won't be on the East Coast.

(EDIT: What Ainsworth74 said!)

 

[RobShipway]

Yes, but if these proposals do come to anything, then it won't be on the East Coast.

(EDIT: What Ainsworth74 said!)

They may be retained to work services elsewhere, but as I have all ready stated in a earlier post up this thread, the MK4's certainly I think would be dispersed to other duties and perhaps some converted into sleeping stock.

The class 91's I see replacing the class 86's and class 90's, so you would not have the 225's as we know them today.

The only way that I can see class 225's being retained, would be to replace one of the class 91 locomotives with a class 43 locomotive which would still have life within it as the engines where replaced not that long ago. In doing this you would have a hybrid train that could work any route, such as replacing the Voyagers on the Euston - Holyhead route.

 

[JamesRowden]

The only way that I can see class 225's being retained, would be to replace one of the class 91 locomotives with a class 43 locomotive which would still have life within it as the engines where replaced not that long ago. In doing this you would have a hybrid train that could work any route, such as replacing the Voyagers on the Euston - Holyhead route.

I assume you mean replacing the DVT with a class 43.

If the formations were full length, I expect that the acceleration when not under the wires would be siginificantly less than an HST because of only having one engine.

 

[corfield]

Since you seem to think 225s have 2x Class 91s, perhaps a bit of studying wouldnt go amiss before trying to make assertions about what they could/should do.

Not to mention reading this very topic through, as the HST incompatibility with Mk4s has been mentioned several times, so quite how a 91-Mk4-43 rake would work in practice seems tricky. Not to mention a training/maintenance burden. If a bi-mode IC train is wanted, then, er, buy more 800s.

Could the 91s have future as freight locos ? Doable/cost effective ?

 

[Harbon 1]

They probably will end up as fast freight locos as they were originally intended for that, and as for having one 43 pull a rake + loco, it would be very slow and the engine probably over worked
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Not to mention reading this very topic through, as the HST incompatibility with Mk4s has been mentioned several times, so quite how a 91-Mk4-43 rake would work in practice seems tricky. Not to mention a training/maintenance burden. If a bi-mode IC train is wanted, then, er, buy more 800s.

Since EC have both, the maintenance and training wouldn't need to be changed would they? And with some other way of supplying ETH etc the 43 could just be used as a stand alone loco. But again would be slow

 

[Manchester77]

Could the 91s have future as freight locos ? Doable/cost effective ?

They're certainly powerful enough. They'll probably have to be RE-geared to something like 100 mph, 125/140 seems a tad excessive for freight

However is the the need for more electric freight locos, yes here's electric spine and electrification elsewhere but there's a fair few stored 92s and 90s around, would all if any 91s be needed?

 

[ModernRailways]

I'm going to send an email off to Freightliner just to query it with them. I certainly recall being told by a Freightliner driver that they had the 91s lined up when their life expired on the East Coast Mainline as replacements for their 86s and potentially some of their Class 90s.

Don't Scotrail use Freightliner's Class 90s on the sleeper? Or is it DB Shenker Class 90s? Or whichever they can get their hands on? Would a 91 be able to haul the sleeper?

 

[transmanche]

Would a 91 be able to haul the sleeper?

A 91 is more powerful than a 90 - but it's all down to the gearing I guess.

 

[Manchester77]

They were originally designed to haul sleepers in flat end mode so don't see why not

 

[D365]

I'm going to send an email off to Freightliner just to query it with them. I certainly recall being told by a Freightliner driver that they had the 91s lined up when their life expired on the East Coast Main Line as replacements for their 86s and potentially some of their Class 90s.

Life expired on the ECML, will that be the case? The main reason for IEP replacement is probably political, as we all know... Not that it's necessarily a bad thing though. We will need more electric locomotion for sure in the future. Though remember the 91s will need serious regearing - give them a new subclass!

Don't Scotrail use Freightliner's Class 90s on the sleeper? Or is it DB Shenker Class 90s? Or whichever they can get their hands on? Would a 91 be able to haul the sleeper?

DBS, typically with specially liveried locos.

 

[Photohunter71]

It still strikes me as bewildering that Bombardier/Siemens and Alstom are touting their electric locomotives for a possible UK market when it looks like we don't need them. I also question the Vossloh proposal of an electric version of the 68!

 

[ainsworth74]

Since EC have both, the maintenance and training wouldn't need to be changed would they?

Seeing as the only reason we're having this discussion is because the HSTs and 225s are being replaced on the ECML the fact that the ICEC franchise has experience in maintaining them is neither here nor there I'd have thought!