Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[YorkshireBear]

How many units is thameslink going to release? including on the GN?

 

[Class377/5]

How many units is thameslink going to release? including on the GN?

It will release

12x 317
86x 319
13x 321
23x 377/5

The 377/2 are going back to Southern along with the 377/5. 319's will go to new electrification schemes. Not heard what's happening with the 317 or 321.

However the 313 & 365 fleets are required after the Thameslink Programme for non Thameslink services on the GN.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Do you actually mean trains with proper doors, no bus seats and no step access ? Heavens above, what is the world coming to up here in "Nortrhern-land"..

Uppppp Norrth is trying to emulate daarn saarth

 

[Eagle]

Uppppp Norrth is trying to emulate daarn saarth

Twenty years ago that would have meant bringing back all the slammers that the newfangled Pacers and Sprinters replaced.

 

[tbtc]

It will release

12x 317
86x 319
13x 321
23x 377/5

The 377/2 are going back to Southern along with the 377/5. 319's will go to new electrification schemes. Not heard what's happening with the 317 or 321

Just my opinion, but I think it'd make sense for the 317s to go to GA with some of their 321s heading the newly electrified lines elsewhere in England/ Wales.

The "logic" being that...

• The 317s have gangwayed connections for working in multiple - multiple working being more relevant on London area lines than in Manchester/ Cardiff/ Leeds etc
• Realistically a four coach EMU is going to be enough on most newly electrified lines (rather than needing an eight coach one straight away), so corridor connections are less of an issue in Manchester/ Cardiff/ Leeds etc
• 321s already run in/around West Yorkshire so would mean more of a "standard" type of EMU (e.g. there could be thirtysomething 321/322s at Northern if things were organised along those lines)
• There's also the seven LM 321s that may be up for grabs (if/when they get additional EMU capacity)

 

[507 001]

Twenty years ago that would have meant bringing back all the slammers that the newfangled Pacers and Sprinters replaced.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm pretty certain most people would have preferred the southern EMUs to he sprinters and pacers!

 

[tom1649]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm pretty certain most people would have preferred the southern EMUs to he sprinters and pacers!

The 308s on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines were luxury compared with the Pacers they replaced and I thought they were an improvement on Sprinters too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 308s on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines were luxury compared with the Pacers they replaced and I thought they were an improvement on Sprinters too.

Likewise, the 307s on Leeds-Doncaster were far better than the 141s, 142s and 144s (plus occasional sprinters or 'heritage' units!) they replaced.

That said, I'd rather we'd soldiered on with the heritage units for another 10 years while BR saved up for something better than a pacer!

 

[507 001]

Slightly off topic: work has started on digging out the subway at Huyton. You can now see the staircase going down into it. The brickwork looks to be in remarkably good nick considering its been buried for the past 30 years!

Earlstown station is in the process of being re-signalled with what appear to be those new NR modular signals. Strangely only the new junction signal for trains heading toward Manchester/Warrington has electrification screens attached?

The WCML junction just after Newton le willows is under possession today.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Slightly off topic: work has started on digging out the subway at Huyton. You can now see the staircase going down into it. The brickwork looks to be in remarkably good nick considering its been buried for the past 30 years!

Earlstown station is in the process of being re-signalled with what appear to be those new NR modular signals. Strangely only the new junction signal for trains heading toward Manchester/Warrington has electrification screens attached?

The WCML junction just after Newton le willows is under possession today.

A team was busy restoring the old slow line platforms at Roby earlier this week.
They seem to be reusing the original bricks rather than new-fangled concrete.

 

[edwin_m]

Earlstown station is in the process of being re-signalled with what appear to be those new NR modular signals. Strangely only the new junction signal for trains heading toward Manchester/Warrington has electrification screens attached?

The screens are to protect anyone who needs to climb the signal from electrocution from the OLE. They are only needed if the signal is within a certain distance of the OLE and if they are the type of signals that hinge down they probably won't have screens at all.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The screens are to protect anyone who needs to climb the signal from electrocution from the OLE. They are only needed if the signal is within a certain distance of the OLE and if they are the type of signals that hinge down they probably won't have screens at all.

Well there's a thing.
I have been under the misapprehension for decades that they were required for signalling electrical interference reasons. :cry:

 

[507 001]

The screens are to protect anyone who needs to climb the signal from electrocution from the OLE. They are only needed if the signal is within a certain distance of the OLE and if they are the type of signals that hinge down they probably won't have screens at all.

Well there's a thing.
I have been under the misapprehension for decades that they were required for signalling electrical interference reasons. :cry:

I thought they were to protect the signal if the wires came down, learn summat new every day!

 

[DJH1971]

I noticed yesterday there was side mounted support arms at the tunnel under the roundabout at the end of the M602.

 

[Holly]

With whatever EMUs they end up with to operate Liverpool–Manchester and Liverpool–Wigan services. Those will be fully electric by December 2014, although it might be another couple of timetables after that before they've got enough EMUs to run a proper electric service.

Any chance of electric loco hauled coaching stock being used to temporarily fill a gap waiting for EMU availability?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Any chance of electric loco hauled coaching stock being used to temporarily fill a gap waiting for EMU availability?

I think you would have more chance of seeing pigs fly past the window.

As an aside I quite like 319s, whilst they are only really electric 150s, with many still retaining their original 150 style seating with the seat bases that fall off too easily (albeit in facing rather than airline style), they are quite nice units. I think they would be quite ok for the north west electrics at the start, although how long they will last for, considering they are 25/26 years old this year, is a separate matter. Will they end up being a stop gap (a la 308s on the Aire Valley in the 90s), or will they be rebuilt to last years to come (similar to the 321 rebuild plan).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 3 wiring gaps in the Chat Moss route were still there today, although the one at Ordsall Lane has shrunk a bit.
Two new wiring runs have gone in across Ordsall Lane Jn, completing Castlefield Viaduct. One of them starts on the Victoria section.
However, they peter out just west of the junction towards Salford Crescent, so there is still a fair gap before the long wire run starts alongside the M602.
The gaps further west (a long one at Glazebury and a short one at Parkside) haven't changed.
Meanwhile Balfour Beatty has been busy on the Wigan line with many foundations now in from St Helens Central to east of Bryn, at least on the Up (eastbound) line.
The closure of this section for the WCML work last week must have given them daylight access for a change.

I had a look at last week's WCML upgrades around Wigan too.
They are still dismantling the work sites, with 50mph limits on all lines at Golborne and Balshaw Lane.
Although the fast/slow crossovers at Springs Branch have been renewed, it seemed to me that the junction with the St Helens line itself (30mph) was untouched.
I also fell to wondering how much of the new 75mph diverging speeds at these junctions will be useable northbound (fast to slow) if approach control is still being used.
Unless flashing yellows are installed, northbound trains will still slow substantially before taking the junctions*.
Southbound (slow to fast) there isn't the same problem.
Maybe I have missed something.

Golborne Jn towards Lowton (which will become very busy next year) is now signed for 20mph rather than 15mph.

*Edit: Not a problem at Golborne Jn I now realise, as the new speed differential is only 15mph (90-75). However it is a problem at Balshaw Lane where the speed differential is 35mph (110-75).

 

[Ships]

Nothing was done on the actual junction at springs branch. They eliminated the switch (or fixed) diamonds further down and replaced with a ladar and opened out the junction. The biggest change was at bamfurlong where two double junctions where eliminated and the chord has been singled, but has been rebuilt to passenger standards and will very likely be electrified.

 

[Whistler40145]

Ships, pardon my ignorance, which is the chord that has been rebuilt at Bamfurlong?


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[Ships]

The two track freight line which splits off from the two line which use the dive under connecting it to the line to st Helen's. Initially I was skeptical about the singling but after reading the proposal it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Whistler40145]

So does this mean that if the line is blocked via St. Helens Junction, trains could be diverted via St. Helens Central, Bamfurlong & Lowton Junction using electric motive power?


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[DJH1971]

So does this mean that if the line is blocked via St. Helens Junction, trains could be diverted via St. Helens Central, Bamfurlong & Lowton Junction using electric motive power?


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Has to say it makes sense here!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is there any info anywhere on renewals? I cant find any details anywhere?

 

[Ships]

Are you talking about the work during the recent blockade?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Are you talking about the work during the recent blockade?

yeah.

 

[The Planner]

The Ince Moss chord was singled. Balshaw Lane was upgraded but the 75mph wont come in until they do the interlocking which is later on, it will be flashers on the approach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

*Edit: Not a problem at Golborne Jn I now realise, as the new speed differential is only 15mph (90-75). However it is a problem at Balshaw Lane where the speed differential is 35mph (110-75).

Greater than 10mph requires approach control to my knowledge unless flashers are supplied.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Greater than 10mph requires approach control to my knowledge unless flashers are supplied.

So it does.
I thought 25mph was the tolerance from somewhere, but evidently not.

I hope they do Warrington BQ P4 at the same time!
I get fed up drifting down from the MSC bridge (from Chester) waiting for the approach control to clear and then speeding up over the 50mph turnout.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

So it does.
I thought 25mph was the tolerance from somewhere, but evidently not.

I hope they do Warrington BQ P4 at the same time!
I get fed up drifting down from the MSC bridge (from Chester) waiting for the approach control to clear and then speeding up over the 50mph turnout.

At an approach speed of 80 mph or greater, if the turnout speed is 40 mph or higher then flashing yellows can be applied (if this can be acheived without confusing the driver). If the turnout speed is 35 or less then MAR (main aspect approach released from red) is required.


At an approach speed is between 40 and 75, if the turnout speed is 30 mph or higher then flashing yellows can be applied (if this can be acheived without confusing the driver). If the turnout speed is 25 or less then MAR (main aspect approach released from red) is required.

If the turnout speed is within 10mph of the approach speed or the approach speed is lower than 40mph then no controls are required.

The Down Helsby to P4 signal check will be because of a short overlap or awaiting the junction clearing ahead - the move Down Helsby to Down Main is only 10mph anyway, IIRC?

 

[L+Y]

Slightly related to this thread: the platform buildings have been demolished at Salford Crescent station.

Speaking of Salford, are there plans in the electrification/Northern Hub to bring back into use the two abandoned platforms at Salford Central, to allow Liverpool trains to stop there? Currently, they're quite the eyesore!

 

[DJH1971]

Slightly related to this thread: the platform buildings have been demolished at Salford Crescent station.

Speaking of Salford, are there plans in the electrification/Northern Hub to bring back into use the two abandoned platforms at Salford Central, to allow Liverpool trains to stop there? Currently, they're quite the eyesore!

It would sure make sense to use them and would save passengers from Liverpool, Warrington and North Wales having to change and get a train from Victoria or Piccadilly.