Passenger forced to pay Anytime fare, but which one?

[island]

If a passenger is in a position where he is required to purchase an undiscounted Anytime ticket or pay a Penalty Fare (assuming the £20 minimum doesn't apply) due to failure to purchase before boarding, what happens if there are multiple Anytime fares for the journey made (for example, if there is a cheaper route-specific or TOC-specific fare applicable)?

This arose today at Gloucester station where a foreign passenger in a somewhat confused/tired/emotional state sought to activate the ticket barrier using an Oyster card. I overheard the gateline attendant requesting the sum of £93.50, the price for an ANY PERMITTED anytime single from London. However, there is a VIA STROUD fare available at £76. Should this have been offered?

[As an aside, the passenger in question, who had seemingly managed to get by without a ticket since West Drayton, had not managed to regularise his situation by the time my train arrived, and was making numerous phone calls, to whom I do not know. The gateline attendant was in the process of calling out the BTP last I heard.]

 

[Flamingo]

Good question. Given that it is supposed to be the Anytime fare with no discounts, then the Any Permitted fare is he one to offer, as otherwise a "discount" is being given for a cheaper route.

The bottom line is that there is no point in having a deterrent without making it the maximum it can be, I suppose!

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Depends on where this happened, if Stroud was the next station then fair enough, but if they could have gotten that ticket then gone another way then the barrier guy was probably correct in selling (or attempting to!) the Any Permitted ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

where a foreign passenger in a somewhat confused/tired/emotional state

then the Any Permitted fare is he one to offer, as otherwise a "discount" is being given for a cheaper route.

The bottom line is that there is no point in having a deterrent without making it the maximum it can be, I suppose!

I saw a Trip Advisor thread where someone said as a tourist in Germany they forgot to put the name of the lead passenger on a Bayern Ticket before using it and a ticket inspector simply instructured them to write their name on it. Apparently the same ticket inspector forced a German passenger to buy a new ticket for not having added the required name to the ticket they presented.

 

[Flamingo]

At a guess, the male was probably surprised and disoriented by finding barriers at GCR, and expected to just walk out.

Foreign does not mean they are either confused, or honest.

 

[Mojo]

Depends on where this happened, if Stroud was the next station then fair enough, but if they could have gotten that ticket then gone another way then the barrier guy was probably correct in selling (or attempting to!) the Any Permitted ticket.

The Toc I used to work for, when it introduced Toc Only fares, advised that whilst on-board staff should only sell full-fare tickets on board, for single journeys or where the customer indicated he was happy to return on our trains, then if we had a Toc Only Anytime fare for that flow, then this met the requirements for a 'full-fare' and thus could be sold.

 

[Tibbs]

At a guess, the male was probably surprised and disoriented by finding barriers at GCR, and expected to just walk out.

Foreign does not mean they are either confused, or honest.

My French boss used to regularly get out of speeding tickets by pretending to not speak English when stopped by the police.

It is amazing how many people's English skills disappear to nothing when confronted by someone in authority trying to tell them they've done something wrong!

I'd try it myself, but being British I can only say '4 beers please' and 'cheers' in the languages I speak!

 

[Flamingo]

It's amazing the number of people who don't speak English when asked for a ticket, but recognise the phrase "The police are waiting at the next station" and will produce wads of cash!

 

[RPI]

Conditions of carriage states the most expensive ticket for the class of travel so it would be the Any Permitted that i would offer.

 

[Flamingo]

The Toc I used to work for, when it introduced Toc Only fares, advised that whilst on-board staff should only sell full-fare tickets on board, for single journeys or where the customer indicated he was happy to return on our trains, then if we had a Toc Only Anytime fare for that flow, then this met the requirements for a 'full-fare' and thus could be sold.

This probably had more to do with them keeping all the revenue from a TOC only ticket...

 

[tony_mac]

This topic came up before some time ago (a couple of years or so).
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=48675

At the time, I think most staff agreed that a route-specific Anytime ticket would be correct .

Originally Posted by Ferret
I've had this argument in the messroom with one or two. They say it's a discounted ticket so shouldn't be sold on board. I say that it's an SDS/SDR and it's no different to selling other tickets where there is a variable route option available to the customer. And I reckon I'm right! LOL!

Originally Posted by AlterEgo
I agree - even if it is route-specific, or company-specific, it's still a full-priced ticket in my eyes.

A discount to me refers to either Off-Peak/Advance tickets, or a ticket with a railcar reduction applied. I wouldn't consider a Brum-London Route:High Wycombe ticket a "discount" on the Any Permitted.

 

[Monkey Magic]

I'd really love to see how some of your foreign language skills get on when in a foreign country when confronted with a heavy handed guard/RPI/barrier person, threatening you with all sorts of things.

But I guess because they are foreign they must be all out to cheat everyone...

Let me give you an example of how you can get caught out.

I travel in Romania quite often, my Romanian is ok to get by. Now on the bus you have to validate your card when you get on. Fair enough you think.

I get on the bus validate my card, the message comes up. Card validated.

I sit down. The bus isn't due to go for 10 minutes. The drivers change and off we go.

Later on some inspectors get on. Check my card. Only to tell me that my card isn't validated and that I will have to get off and pay an on the spot fine. As well as threatening me. Now I know that I've validated my card. However, in a stressful situation it is very difficult to find the correct words to express what you want to express.

Go on, off the top of your head, say correctly (in a foreign language of your choice) - 'I got on and validated my card at Piata Unirii and the message came up saying it was correctly validated. Why are you telling me that I haven't validated my card? What is going on?'

All the while the inspector is shaking their head and saying you need to get off and that I haven't validated the card and that I need to pay a fine.

What it turns out had happened was this and I've not seen it elsewhere.

i) When the drivers changed the validating machines reset themselves. I had got on at what was classed as the end of the old journey. So I had validated my ticket at the final stop to go nowhere.

ii) What I should have done is wait until the bus started to leave and then validate my ticket to be sure that I was validated for the journey I was undertaking.

iii) If you are on a circular route and you get on where the bus does a loop before going back, if the bus 'changes direction' ie starts going south instead of north, then that is classed by RATB as a new journey. So getting on the penultimate stop before the route 'changes' means that the rest of your journey after the change of route is invalid.

Now, I was told by the inspector 'well you should know this', and no doubt just like others in this thread I was 'cheating foreigner whose Romanian had strategically broken down to get out of paying the fine'.

Thankfully, another passenger and the driver vouched for me that I had got on and validated my ticket at Unirii and they were able to see when I had validated it last.

However, it was deeply unpleasant and very stressful and guess what my Romanian broke down in the circumstances.

RATB recognised that this was a problem and actually put English speaking staff on the buses to help tourists and others with the system. Which is a rare case of better customer service and a company trying to help passengers rather than treating people as criminals.

Just because someone doesn't hold a UK passport doesn't automatically make them a cheat and a criminal despite what the Daily Mail or the EDL tell you.

 

[yorkie]

This arose today at Gloucester station where a foreign passenger in a somewhat confused/tired/emotional state sought to activate the ticket barrier using an Oyster card. I overheard the gateline attendant requesting the sum of £93.50, the price for an ANY PERMITTED anytime single from London. However, there is a VIA STROUD fare available at £76. Should this have been offered?

If he travelled via Stroud, then he should be sold the full Anytime fare for route: via Stroud.

 

[sheff1]

If he travelled via Stroud, then he should be sold the full Anytime fare for route: via Stroud.

Where is this documented ?

The NRCoC states:

For the purposes of this Condition ..... “full single fare or full return fare” means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making.

which would suggest the Any Permitted fare.

I'd really love to see how some of your foreign language skills get on when in a foreign country <snip

Excellent post.

I have only ever had one ticketing 'dispute' abroad and fortunately that was in Sweden where, even if you attempt to speak Swedish, the locals will invariably respond in perfect English. If the ticket inspector had not done so, I doubt whether my Swedish would have been up to the discussion (it eventually turned out he had misread the destination on my ticket for a similarly named town in the opposite direction). I would, however, have understood perfectly if had told me, in Swedish, that the police would be waiting at the next station !

 

[DeeGee]

I've made two mistakes with train tickets so far in my life.

One was in the UK, where I bought a "Return valid for one month" (Superadvance, I believe) and tried to use it for the outward journey on the day after the date printed on the front of the ticket. Result - buy a new Single Ticket.

One was in France, a language in which I'm fluent. I had bought a return ticket for a short journey and thought it was a day return, thus didn't validate it on the way back- thinking as I'd already validated it that day it would be valid. I was unaware that outside the UK the day return is a rare beast. Result - given a lesson in how to use the railways and told not to do it again.

Was I treated more leniently in France as a foreigner, albeit one who regularly travelled intercity but rarely locally, than I was as a Brit in the UK making my first Intercity journey as an adult?

 

[Harlesden]

Flying into Zurich from Toronto in the summer of 1998 and needing a train to Paris to connect with the Eurostar to London Waterloo, I could not find a single person on Zurich Station who spoke/understood English. I had to work it out for myself and would have expected to have been penalised if I had got it wrong in the sense of being treated as a passenger with irregular doumentation as opposed to being patronised as a rather less than intelligent tourist.

 

[Monkey Magic]

And how would you have got on being confronted by an aggressive guard suspecting you of being a cheating foreigner threatening you with the police in Swiss German?

The point is that almost all countries have local rules which are often well known to locals (and sometimes not) and which the non-local is not aware of.

Someone who is from outside the country and may not have travelled on the system. Most often mistakes occur when things are different to how they are back in the persons home state.

Simple example, I always have to remind my friends from Bucharest that when we are on the underground in London they need to keep their tickets/oyster cards ready to swipe on the way out. They get puzzled because in Bucharest you only swipe on the way in.

Are they deliberately slowing the system down? Are they ignorant tourists? Not really, they just assumed that the system was the same as at home. That is the 'normal' way.

Recently I had to use the inner suburban system in Budapest, a totally different system again (different to the subway and different to MAV), nothing in English and thankfully I had a Hungarian friend with me to sort things out, otherwise, having seen nothing that looked like somewhere to get a ticket I would have almost certainly run into problems with the three RPI type people at the top of the steps of the station.

Turns out the ticket office is located on the platform (which is an island) and not in the subway or by the main entrance as you might expect, there are no barriers, and you have to validate your ticket on the train. This was my friend's local station so she got the tickets without any problems. However, if it had been me by myself, I am pretty sure I'd have really struggled and I may well have made a mistake.

I speak no Hungarian but I am pretty sure that if someone started mentioning the police I'd have recognised what was going on.

Like I said, my experience on the bus in Bucharest, was deeply unpleasant and stressful especially as the inspector made no allowance for the fact that I am not a native Romanian speaker. I can well understand why someone visiting the UK who may very well have made a mistake may have their English break down - especially when confronted with a member of staff for whom they've committed the double crime of being misunderstanding the ticketing system and of being foreign.

 

[jb]

All this indignation is very nice, but what is anyone supposed to actually do (differently)?

 

[Monkey Magic]

Applying a bit of common sense and empathy maybe?

Perhaps not start from the default position that when someone's english breaks down it is an attempt to get out of paying? Accept that it is a stressful situation for the person.

Perhaps accepting that people from outside the UK may be more likely to be confused by the system and are more likely to make mistakes?

Perhaps being so hostile to people from outside the UK?

Small steps I know.

I notice that FGW have started putting up posters stating what is expected of staff and passengers in their interactions with one another. One of the requirements of staff is to accept that different passengers have different needs and that not everyone will be familiar with the system.

What would be a good step would be for FGW and all train operators to remind their staff of this fact - especially in the tourist season.

 

[jb]

Applying a bit of common sense and empathy maybe?

In other words, ignore the rules if the passenger says "please ignore the rules".

 

[Monkey Magic]

No and I didn't say that. But as I said, don't start from the default position that everyone is trying to cheat the system as it is clear some staff do. Mistakes happen especially by non-locals and those conversing in a different language. That is all that is being said here.

Obviously, you'd like to string everyone up for the offence of misunderstanding a highly complex ticketing system.

I'll tell you what, you go to another foreign country, you make some mistakes when travelling and then demand that they apply all the rules to you and we'll see how you enjoy it. Remember, rules are rules.

 

[jb]

I'll tell you what, you go to another foreign country, you make some mistakes when travelling and then demand that they apply all the rules to you and we'll see how you enjoy it. Remember, rules are rules.

You started this rant in response to someone who SPECIFICALLY said "if I screwed up in those circumstances I would expect to take the consequences". But hey, continue yelling at the sky.

 

[transmanche]

Perhaps not start from the default position that when someone's english breaks down it is an attempt to get out of paying? Accept that it is a stressful situation for the person.

Indeed. We've seen plenty of threads on here where people say and do 'incriminating' things when stopped by an RPI (e.g. quote a former/parent's address, get their DOB wrong, say the incorrect station for when their journey started, etc.). All things that honest people might do when put in an unusual and stressful situation - compounded by (what appears to them at least) some aggressive questioning and a presumption of guilt.

Then take that and make it all happen in an unfamiliar (or at least a second) language...

 

[Flamingo]

We've seen plenty of threads on here where passengers actions (giving false names and addresses, wrong starting station etc) could be seen by any reasonable person as an attempt to avoid paying the fare due.

I had a chap a year ago "spoke no English" - I had passed him two minutes earlier talking in English on his mobile phone.

Now personally, I am quite happy to walk through the train, saying "Does anybody want to buy a ticket", cliping whatever I'm handed, and advising people where to change. This is a lot less hassle for me, and I like a quiet life.

If this became the approved method of working, what would be the overall result?

 

[northwichcat]

Flying into Zurich from Toronto in the summer of 1998 and needing a train to Paris to connect with the Eurostar to London Waterloo, I could not find a single person on Zurich Station who spoke/understood English. I had to work it out for myself and would have expected to have been penalised if I had got it wrong in the sense of being treated as a passenger with irregular doumentation as opposed to being patronised as a rather less than intelligent tourist.

But did they provide you with enough information for a tourist to be able to use the system easily?

When I did Munich-Salzburg a couple of months back I found it easy enough to do with only knowing a few words of German but there were things they could have easily done to make it less confusing.

For the outbound journey I already had a platform number on an itinerary that I had printed and confirmed this at the destination displays near the station entrance. When I reached the platform the platform departure display was still showing an earlier departure but people were boarding a non-route branded single decker with no destination shown on it either internally or externally and there were no bilingual announcements for the service either at the station or on the train. This was the correct train for Salzburg but could be confusing for someone who had printed out an itinerary and headed to the platform without checking the departure displays near the entrance as they wouldn't have known whether the train that was there was a late runner departing for somewhere else before the Salzburg train arrived.

For the return journey there was a bilingual announcement at the station for the Munich train and the train was a route branded double decker. However, the PIS on the train showed the train was heading for 'Salzburg Hbf' and didn't get reset until the train had left Salzburg.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now personally, I am quite happy to walk through the train, saying "Does anybody want to buy a ticket", cliping whatever I'm handed, and advising people where to change. This is a lot less hassle for me, and I like a quiet life.

Some Northern guards do that particularly between the second to last station and the terminus where they know they'll be RPIs at the terminus.

We've seen plenty of threads on here where passengers actions (giving false names and addresses, wrong starting station etc) could be seen by any reasonable person as an attempt to avoid paying the fare due.

In some cases it can be done by accident e.g. if someone lived at the same address for 30 years and recently moved and their address and origin station have changed and out of habit they give their old details. Then even if they give the correct new details when if the RPI asks for proof then the only ID they have may have their old address on it.

 

[transmanche]

We've seen plenty of threads on here where passengers actions (giving false names and addresses, wrong starting station etc) could be seen by any reasonable person as an attempt to avoid paying the fare due.

The difference being is that your default position appears to be that they're all trying to pull a fast one, that none of them are to be trusted - and that they're all guilty as charged.

That may not be actually how you are in real life, but it's certainly the impression you give here.

 

[Flamingo]

The difference being is that your default position appears to be that they're all trying to pull a fast one, that none of them are to be trusted - and that they're all guilty as charged.

That may not be actually how you are in real life, but it's certainly the impression you give here.

My default position is I will listen to their story as to why they do not have a ticket, and make a professional judgement based on my knowledge of their route and station as to whether the story is reasonable or not. I will ask questions to get further information if required.

I don't believe that every passenger is a potential fare-dodger. Just the ones with no tickets!

 

[transmanche]

I don't believe that every passenger is a potential fare-dodger. Just the ones with no tickets!

Being that the discussion is about passengers without tickets, I find that rather worrying. As it demonstrates my fears are well founded.

 

[Flamingo]

Being that the discussion is about passengers without tickets, I find that rather worrying. As it demonstrates my fears are well founded.

Well, look at my patch - I work Intercity trains to and from a main London terminus. The overwhelming majority of stations I work from have a manned booking office and TVM's. They also have staff to assist any passenger queries. Most, though not all, have barriered platforms.

If somebody says they need to buy a ticket when I ask to see their ticket, and their answer to the first questionn I ask (" Where did you start your journey?") is a manned station, assuming they are attempting to avoid paying for their journey is not an unreasonable assumption. Doubtless others will disagree with me.

 

[jb]

Being that the discussion is about passengers without tickets, I find that rather worrying. As it demonstrates my fears are well founded.

I'm sorry to tell you that the worrying of keyboard warriors over things like "default positions" bears no relation to anything that ticketless travellers actually care about, or anything that makes any difference to anyone in the real world.

Ticketless travellers don't want to be treated from the right default position, they want to be told it's OK to be ticketless. It's got nothing to do with approach and everything to do with outcome.

If you offered 100 ticketless travellers a choice between:

(a) being told off then sold a discounted ticket

(b) cheerfully and respectfully being told the rules, then sold a full fare, PFed or MG11ed (appropriately)

you would find out how much "position", "empathy" or "common sense" matters. If you don't accept this then you clearly don't actually read the posts in this forum.

Just to be absolutely clear, I don't care whether these ticketless travellers are fare dodgers or people who made genuine mistakes. The split of responses wouldn't either. That's because stuff like approach and position doesn't actually matter.

What the worried keyboard warriors are actually advocating (maybe without realising it) is a change of outcomes. And some of us who pay our fare aren't really interested in that.