Government Spending Review

[tbtc]

Don't forget though that the units operating on the Cumbrian Coast will still need to be serviced at Newton Heath in which case there is no obvious benefit in extending the wires over the Windermere branch. Surely the same units will run on both lines?

At the moment the Windermere branch is run by TPE and the Cumbrian Coast line is run by Northern. Nothing confirmed about them merging (yet).

 

[northwichcat]

There are others on this board who would fundamentally disagree with your comment that the ECML electrification was done 'on the cheap'. Given at least one was involved in the project, I think they're far better qualified to talk about it than you are.

Well OK electrification work is never cheap, it always requires a lot of investment. However, the failure rate of the electrics on the ECML is high so if it wasn't done at a reduced cost then the government at the time got ripped off.

 

[Oswyntail]

Well OK electrification work is never cheap, it always requires a lot of investment. However, the failure rate of the electrics on the ECML is high so if it wasn't done at a reduced cost then the government at the time got ripped off.

I seem to recall that this is another myth - failures on the WCML are comparable. Thread somewhere

 

[northwichcat]

I seem to recall that this is another myth - failures on the WCML are comparable. Thread somewhere

Is that on a like-for-like comparison? Most of the WCML failures seem to be on the more intensively used southern section, while the ECML seems to get a lot of overhead failures in the less intensively used North East area as a result of the weather.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are others on this board who would fundamentally disagree with your comment that the ECML electrification was done 'on the cheap'. Given at least one was involved in the project, I think they're far better qualified to talk about it than you are.

There's an interesting piece by Roger Ford in the July Modern Railways about the RAIB report into the OHLE failure at Littleport (Ely-King's Lynn line) last year.
This suggests maintenance methods may be more significant in failures than perceived design issues.
This is not the high-speed ECML of course, but it is the same design of OHLE (Mk 3b).
It shows how flawed maintenance methods (inadequate processes, records and tools) led to a dewirement, in this case due to ground movement over the years.
It makes good reading.
It might also explain the very heavy design of the OHLE going up over Chat Moss just now.

 

[A0]

Is that on a like-for-like comparison? Most of the WCML failures seem to be on the more intensively used southern section, while the ECML seems to get a lot of overhead failures in the less intensively used North East area as a result of the weather.

I have to say the most recent problems I've heard reported were the WCML ones around MK which caused quite a few problems.

The NE section of the ECML is quite exposed - equally though the disruption caused by problems on that section have much less impact than failures on the southern section of either the ECML or WCML are.

And if you're looking at problems caused by weather, then surely the prize for that one goes to the places which use 3rd rail - any serious snow or cold weather seems to cause endless problems - and those weren't electrified on the cheap.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's an interesting piece by Roger Ford in the July Modern Railways about the RAIB report into the OHLE failure at Littleport (Ely-King's Lynn line) last year.
This suggests maintenance methods may be more significant in failures than perceived design issues.
This is not the high-speed ECML of course, but it is the same design of OHLE (Mk 3b).
It shows how flawed maintenance methods (inadequate processes, records and tools) led to a dewirement, in this case due to ground movement over the years.
It makes good reading.
It might also explain the very heavy design of the OHLE going up over Chat Moss just now.

I suspect there's a lot of truth in poor maintenance causing problems than the original installation - the question is how you address that - and I don't believe for a minute that poor maintenance is solely down to privatisation - BR weren't beyond such problems.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is that on a like-for-like comparison? Most of the WCML failures seem to be on the more intensively used southern section, while the ECML seems to get a lot of overhead failures in the less intensively used North East area as a result of the weather.

When was the last time that there was a dewirement in the North East when there weren't also dewirements further south on the route? Or when the WCML wasn't also out of action? I'm struggling to think of the last time that happened...

To be honest it's something of a myth that the wires are constantly falling down at the northern end of the route.

 

[edwin_m]

It has been suggested that GNER's use of Eurostars - complete with pantographs which are optimised for the level contact wire on high speed routes - did a lot of damage to the ECML OLE.

 

[WatcherZero]

There's an interesting piece by Roger Ford in the July Modern Railways about the RAIB report into the OHLE failure at Littleport (Ely-King's Lynn line) last year.
This suggests maintenance methods may be more significant in failures than perceived design issues.
This is not the high-speed ECML of course, but it is the same design of OHLE (Mk 3b).
It shows how flawed maintenance methods (inadequate processes, records and tools) led to a dewirement, in this case due to ground movement over the years.
It makes good reading.
It might also explain the very heavy design of the OHLE going up over Chat Moss just now.

Ford also suggests that the original engineers cocked up using materials that were found to be prone to corrosion and underestimating wind though with the caveat global warming may have made the wind conditions worse. Maintence however is an interesting dimension, the work just announced for the southern WCML realligning the overhead its suggested is being done because historically BR didnt keep proper records for OHLE and that engineers renewing the track over the years never bothered to ensure the track and overhead were properly aligned afterwards.

 

[yorksrob]

And if you're looking at problems caused by weather, then surely the prize for that one goes to the places which use 3rd rail - any serious snow or cold weather seems to cause endless problems - and those weren't electrified on the cheap.
--- old post abo]ve --- --- new post below ---

.

But does the third rail really deserve that unfortunate accolade ?

True , with the Southern Region being what it is, when it goes down in snow it affects a lot of people, but generally the third rail tends to be pretty robust most of the time. It certainly seems to make the morning news less often than OLE.

 

[A0]

But does the third rail really deserve that unfortunate accolade ?

True , with the Southern Region being what it is, when it goes down in snow it affects a lot of people, but generally the third rail tends to be pretty robust most of the time. It certainly seems to make the morning news less often than OLE.

I think as a system, 3rd rail is weaker than the alternatives, but one shouldn't lose sight of the fact that's more due to the improvements in OHL and the fact AC electrification is now more efficient - this wasn't necessarily the case when much of the Southern Region (as was) was electrified. 25kv AC was only accepted as the preferred standard for BR in the late 50s, by which time much of the Southern's electrification had either been done or was planned.

What I don't believe or accept is that the ECML was electrified "on the cheap" - any project of that kind has to make a decision about the robustness of what's being installed - i.e. do you 'gold plate' it at high cost, but to what benefit? Is the extra expense of 'gold plating' worth it, when compared to the cost of a failure once every 'x' days. And I'm not sure there's any evidence supporting the claim that the ECML electrification is any weaker than that on the WCML.

 

[83G/84D]

Its a very short single track branch that is going to be virtually the only diesel line in that neck of the woods (at the moment Oxenholme sees diesel Voyagers and diesel 185s, but both will be replaced by EMUs later this decade), so should be a fairly cheap and logical bit of line to electrify.

At the moment it takes up a 185 which is a complete waste of resources (though, like the Lymington line, possibly the "least bad" option).

I'd rather that we tackled infills like Windmere if they have better cost/benefit ratios than grandiose schemes.

I am sure the local's will be "up in arms" when they hear masts and wires will be erected in the beautiful countryside around Windermere.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I am sure the local's will be "up in arms" when they hear masts and wires will be erected in the beautiful countryside around Windermere.

Did they mind the Motorway ...?

 

[northwichcat]

I am sure the local's will be "up in arms" when they hear masts and wires will be erected in the beautiful countryside around Windermere.

Did they mind the Motorway ...?

In my local area there is some local opposition to the A556 link road and HS2 saying it will damage the countryside and it's not exactly as beautiful as Windermere.

Have there been any objections to TPE electrification from the Greenfield and Marsden areas or have Network Rail sold them in with the reduced noise and pollution benefits?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be honest it's something of a myth that the wires are constantly falling down at the northern end of the route.

The worst delay I've suffered anywhere on the railway was due to overhead wire damage in the Berwick area and was a delay of around 1hr10 more than the second worst delay I've suffered. Whenever I mention that a lot of other people respond saying their worst ever delay was also on the ECML.

I've also never personally experienced a WCML delay due to overhead wire damage despite travelling on the WCML probably around 500 times than I've travelled on the ECML, although saying that I do rarely travel on the southern section of the WCML.

 

[tbtc]

I am sure the local's will be "up in arms" when they hear masts and wires will be erected in the beautiful countryside around Windermere.

Probably - IIRC Wordsworth was very against railways in the Lake District in the first place.

Realistically though, electrification would mean direct trains to/from Manchester/ Liverpool (etc) rather than continuing with just one train a day to Manchester - which must make a big difference (in terms of keeping cars off the Lake District roads).

Unless they make it Third Rail? (removes tongue from cheek)

 

[Eagle]

Also, I daresay it'll make it quieter and cleaner air, at the least.

 

[Bald Rick]

But does the third rail really deserve that unfortunate accolade ?

True , with the Southern Region being what it is, when it goes down in snow it affects a lot of people, but generally the third rail tends to be pretty robust most of the time. It certainly seems to make the morning news less often than OLE.

More than half the problems the third rail causes don't manifest themselves as problems with electrification. Pots blowing up causing lineside fires, track circuit failures and rail damage being the #1 culprit (happens at least once a week in Kent alone).

 

[ainsworth74]

The worst delay I've suffered anywhere on the railway was due to overhead wire damage in the Berwick area and was a delay of around 1hr10 more than the second worst delay I've suffered. Whenever I mention that a lot of other people respond saying their worst ever delay was also on the ECML.

Yes but one delay doesn't make a trend does it? Again it's a myth that the wires fall down a) all the time on the ECML and b) that they do so even more at the northern end of the route. Further I'd again ask, when was the last delay on the northern end of the ECML that was caused by a dewirement? The last that I recall occurred during some of the worst storms we've had in recent years, storms which also shut the WCML by the by.

Also if we're going to talk about worse delays then the worst I ever suffered was on the WCML, indeed I've only ever had one delay on the ECML that was in excess of thirty minutes and I use it pretty regularly.

 

[Class377/5]

More than half the problems the third rail causes don't manifest themselves as problems with electrification. Pots blowing up causing lineside fires, track circuit failures and rail damage being the #1 culprit (happens at least once a week in Kent alone).

I remember that very problem shutting the Core in mid week AM peak that kept it closed for the day with rail damaged after the Fire service had finished.

 

[yorksrob]

More than half the problems the third rail causes don't manifest themselves as problems with electrification. Pots blowing up causing lineside fires, track circuit failures and rail damage being the #1 culprit (happens at least once a week in Kent alone).

I'm guessing the engineers must do a good job of rectifying third rail issues relatively speedily in that case !

 

[The Ham]

I'm guessing the engineers must do a good job of rectifying third rail issues relatively speedily in that case !

That is where having the density of the SE comes into it's own as I would suggest that the same number of staff can cover a lot of track milage compared with the EC or WC lines, even if there is more problems with the 3rd rail system.

It may explain another reason why NR are keen to get on with converting Basingstoke to the South Coast from 3rd rail, as it is starting to get out into the sticks a bit (in terms of other nearby lines).

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm guessing the engineers must do a good job of rectifying third rail issues relatively speedily in that case !

Fortunately all you need for blown pots is someone who knows how to take an emergency isolation and a big stick. Fixing the signalling / track etc takes just as long as it would for any other incident, and the response time is largely determined by the south London traffic.

 

[swt_passenger]

It may explain another reason why NR are keen to get on with converting Basingstoke to the South Coast from 3rd rail, as it is starting to get out into the sticks a bit (in terms of other nearby lines).

What makes you thin NR are 'keen' to do this? It seems to me it was sprung on them suddenly by DfT, it wasn't considered in the original electrification RUS...

 

[northwichcat]

Probably - IIRC Wordsworth was very against railways in the Lake District in the first place.

One thing with railways in national parks is even if you arrive by car having the railway allows you to go for a long walk in one direction and then get the train back to where your car is, rather than being restricted to circular walks.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Fortunately all you need for blown pots is someone who knows how to take an emergency isolation and a big stick. Fixing the signalling / track etc takes just as long as it would for any other incident, and the response time is largely determined by the south London traffic.

Pretty scary when a pot "blows" - though a 25kV insulator is more akin to a bomb going off (one went at West Hampsted one day , showering 2 trains with nasty shards - very , very lucky one one got hurt) - rare though gather.

Back in the day - "anyone" working in the 3d rail area was trained how to take an isolation , and how to pull a hook switch. De-skilling all round unfortunatly leads to potentially greater delays.

 

[ainsworth74]

What makes you thin NR are 'keen' to do this? It seems to me it was sprung on them suddenly by DfT, it wasn't considered in the original electrification RUS...

Hmm true but within various parts of Network Rail I seem to recall the suggestion being raised a year or so ago that they would rather like to wire up the third-rail routes. I presume however they didn't expect to get the money to do so for a while hence the surprise when it was sprung on them by the DfT!

 

[northwichcat]

Further I'd again ask, when was the last delay on the northern end of the ECML that was caused by a dewirement? The last that I recall occurred during some of the worst storms we've had in recent years, storms which also shut the WCML by the by.

Also if we're going to talk about worse delays then the worst I ever suffered was on the WCML, indeed I've only ever had one delay on the ECML that was in excess of thirty minutes and I use it pretty regularly.

There was a post a few weeks back where someone was asking if they were entitled to compensation because all the trains in the Durham area were delayed by at least 45 minutes. I don't know if that was or wasn't due to overheads though.

You also don't say what was the cause of the worst delay you've ever suffered apart from it being on the WCML not the ECML. A recent post on another thread says Network Rail are now looking at a multi-million pound investment to improve reliability on the southern section of the WCML.

 

[snowball]

Re the discussion on converting 3rd rail to 25kV overhead, a month or two ago somebody in another thread (I forget exactly who, when or where) posted a link to a report about it:

http://www.rssb.co.uk/sitecollectiondocuments/pdf/reports/research/T950_rb_final.pdf

Conclusions

The conclusion of this research is that replacement of the 750V
DC system with 25kV AC appears to be both feasible and
economically desirable. The economic case is likely to improve
as energy costs increase over time. The affordability of the
change has yet to be determined, but an opportunity exists to start
the replacement process within the next industry Control Period
so that the advantage can be taken of the relatively large quantity
of DC equipment becoming life expired at that time. To make
such a change is a very significant decision to be taken by
industry and government (as funder), and would require a large
amount of further work to develop a whole industry business and RSSB 5
implementation plan to take account of the impact on train
operators and the industry's customers.

 

[ainsworth74]

There was a post a few weeks back where someone was asking if they were entitled to compensation because all the trains in the Durham area were delayed by at least 45 minutes. I don't know if that was or wasn't due to overheads though.

Think that was signalling.

Also I take it that you can't recall the last time the ECML failed due to dewirements at the northern end? You've yet to cite a specific example. It certainly doesn't do much to back up your suggestion that the northern ECML is somehow prone to dewirements at a greater frequency then anywhere else if you can't actually mention a specific examples that show this 'problem' (other than that one off which you've mentioned and which doesn't really prove a trend).

 

[WatcherZero]

We didnt really get the details from the budget speech in the Infrastructure announcement but the routes handed over to London Overground are West Anglia Liverpool Street station to Enfield Town, Chingford and Cheshunt of the 25 stations 23 will transfer to LOROL with Liverpool Street and Chingford stations remaining Greater Anglia/Network Rail run. Transfer of Southeastern services is 'unlikely to happen at the present time' according to Tfl.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-23144343

TfL to run West Anglia routes from Liverpool Street

Transport for London (TfL) is to take over the running of some mainline rail services and stations.

TfL will be responsible for some West Anglia routes from Liverpool Street station to Enfield Town and Chingford, in north London, and Cheshunt.

The route includes 25 stations, with TfL taking over 23 of them, from around 2015...