What happens if I miss a connection on split advances?

[ATW Alex 101]

Hi I am going on holiday to South Wales in August (17th out, 31st return)and will be going on the train via London and I will hold the following tickets:

Chester-London Terminals 1st ADVANCE
London Terminal-Pembroke Dock 1st ADVANCE
Pembroke Dock-London Terminals 1st ADVANCE
London Terminals-Chester 1st ADVANCE

From Chester, I will arrive into Euston at 08:09 and I leave Paddington at 08:45. Is that a tight connection time do you reckon? What my main question is, is what if I miss that connection? Seeing as I was delayed by an incoming train, but on a completely different ticket, how would I stand if I somehow missed it? Am I allowed into first class on the next train, or will I have to pay for another ticket? I wouldn't want to do that as I am on my own and I will have no-where near the funds on me! If I do however, make it to Paddington with plenty of time, how busy will the McDonalds be at that time? I will be very hungry at that stage!!

Finally, what advice could you give me if I was to be challenged by a guard about my age? I am 14 years of age so I still qualify for a childs ticket, but I am quite tall and possibly maybe look a bit older. The thing is, the guard might be a bit suspicious seeing a child on his own travelling from London to Pembroke Dock. I have a child rate photo-card, but what should I do if he/she wont have it and the decide to get an RPI in and go on the PF road or something?

Cheers

 

[Goatboy]

It's less than the minimum connection time between those stations I think, so you'll likely be on your own.

Eustonto Paddington in just over 30 minutes is tight anyway let alone thinking you might have time to go to McDonalds as well. This doesn't seem very well researched

 

[johnnychips]

It's less than the minimum connection time between those stations I think, so you'll likely be on your own.

Eustonto Paddington in just over 30 minutes is tight anyway let alone thinking you might have time to go to McDonalds as well. This doesn't seem very well researched

You could do with someone here advising you which carriage on the Tube to get in and the best place to get off the train at Euston (I'm guessing the front of it), as this seems a very tight connection.

I take it you'll get the tube from Euston Square, not Euston. I don't know whether the Circle and Hammersmith lines end up in the same bit of Paddington, or whether one is preferable to the other if it only involves a couple of minutes wait.

 

[yorkie]

From Chester, I will arrive into Euston at 08:09 and I leave Paddington at 08:45. Is that a tight connection time do you reckon?

Yes, it is tight.

What my main question is, is what if I miss that connection?

I cannot predict what will happen, but as it's not a valid connection, you are liable to pay for a new ticket. That's not to say discretion won't be shown but it's not a risk I would take.

Seeing as I was delayed by an incoming train, but on a completely different ticket, how would I stand if I somehow missed it?

It's nothing to do with it being a "different ticket" - it's not a valid connection (as discussed many times on this forum! )

Am I allowed into first class on the next train

You will be very lucky to be allowed on to the next train, but if you are, then you have a first class ticket so, yes.

or will I have to pay for another ticket?

As above.

I wouldn't want to do that as I am on my own and I will have no-where near the funds on me!

There is "SILK" but only full-fare tickets can be bought with that method. A cheaper method is for a family method to purchase a Super Off Peak Single from a website that allows you to insert any card and collect the ticket (there are some sites set up that way).

If I do however, make it to Paddington with plenty of time, how busy will the McDonalds be at that time? I will be very hungry at that stage!!

You won't have time for that. You may have time to buy something at Sainsburys if your train is from a low numbered platform, but given that you will be deposited at the H&C platform (unless you change at Edgware Road or Baker St) which is at the opposite end of the station, I would advise against it.

The other day I thought I had plenty of time to buy food, and missed my train. Oops! Not that it mattered as it was only a Greenford service

Finally, what advice could you give me if I was to be challenged by a guard about my age? I am 14 years of age so I still qualify for a childs ticket, but I am quite tall and possibly maybe look a bit older. The thing is, the guard might be a bit suspicious seeing a child on his own travelling from London to Pembroke Dock. I have a child rate photo-card, but what should I do if he/she wont have it and the decide to get an RPI in and go on the PF road or something?

You have a child photocard, so I wouldn't worry. Yes, you're tall and rather well built for a 14 year old but it's pretty obvious you're young and they have a duty of care and you have the relevant documentation so I wouldn't worry about that.

If only you'd left the required minimum interchange time though!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

From Euston it may be quicker to do Victoria line to Oxford Circus and then Bakerloo back up to Paddington - it's more frequent and probably slightly shorter in time if arriving at Euston from the main line. Have to agree though, very tight connection. 15 mins late into Euston and you've missed it.

 

[johnnychips]

Is this a case of splashing out on a taxi from Euston to Paddington to avoid complications?
Any idea how much?

 

[yorkie]

You could do with someone here advising you which carriage on the Tube to get in and the best place to get off the train at Euston (I'm guessing the front of it), as this seems a very tight connection.

I take it you'll get the tube from Euston Square, not Euston. I don't know whether the Circle and Hammersmith lines end up in the same bit of Paddington, or whether one is preferable to the other if it only involves a couple of minutes wait.

It's tight, and I am not sure what's quickest. The deep level tube lines are quicker than the sub-surface lines, but there is a time penalty in getting to & from them and the interchange at Oxford Circus can be busy.

I reckon Alex would be good at running, so I'd run out of Euston to Euston Square and take the first train that comes.

If that happens to be a Met, most people would let it go, but I wouldn't! I'd walk through the train (S Stock - easily done) to get off at the 4th car at Baker St, dash down the steps and follow signs to Bakerloo Northbound, it's a surprisingly easy interchange. This avoids a wait at Euston Square, and the Bakerloo is quicker than the Circle/H&C! You want to be out at the 4th car at Paddington, but if you jump on the 3rd with no time to spare, just transfer to the 4th at Marylebone or Edgware Road.

If it's a Circle/H&C then it will take you directly to the (standard class) end of the platforms at Paddington, rather than the main concourse. Unfortunately there is often a wait at Edgware Road. You want to be on the 2nd-from-last (5th) car, I think not the last set of doors but one of the middle sets of doors in that coach. If you can be first out, you can be quick up the stairs. Then locate your platform while on the footbridge and proceed directly to the platform for train (boarding at standard class and walking through, if necessary).

Good luck!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From Euston it may be quicker to do Victoria line to Oxford Circus and then Bakerloo back up to Paddington - it's more frequent and probably slightly shorter in time if arriving at Euston from the main line. Have to agree though, very tight connection. 15 mins late into Euston and you've missed it.

Maybe. 17th is a Saturday so Oxford Circus probably won't be as busy as normal at that time. If it was a weekday I'd hjave dvised against that.

 

[telstarbox]

Alex,

First Class on your Chester to London train should be at the end nearest the barriers when you arrive at Euston. If by chance First is at the back of the train, make sure you walk through to the front end before the train arrives at Euston, so that when you get off you have a shorter walk to the Underground.

I've also sent a PM (copied to Yorkie) with a possible solution.

 

[rmt4ever]

35 minutes, that is shed loads. 10 minutes (well tops) to walk to Euston Sq. assume JUST missed a train, so max 4 minute wait, 14 so far 10 mins tops journey time, and 5 min tops from platform 15 to platform whatever. 29 minutes MAX !!! I reckon you will have time for Maccy D even, if not so what buy a crappy FGW sandwich from buffet.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

And yet if you're 5 late into Euston that only leaves you 60 seconds to play with!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Thanks guys for the brilliant responses , I did look into this when booking the tickets and a few sites said 10 minutes from Euston to Paddington on the tube, but looking at the responses, I might change my ticket (with a £10 charge) and leave on a train that gets me into Euston at 07:52, giving me around 20 minutes more so I should be ok, and possibly ok for my Maccys breakfast

How about coming back, train arrives into Paddington from Pembroke at 15:33, train leaves Euston 16:10. 40 minutes, does that sound decent or is that in requirement of a new ticket?

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

10 mins tops journey time

You'd think so, but I've had to wait about 5 mins at Edgware Road on occasions, hence why I always take the first train out of King's Cross/Euston Square and change at Baker St if it's a Met.

I was pleased to avoid even stopping at that wretched place last time I went to Paddington

 

[johnnychips]

And yet if you're 5 late into Euston that only leaves you 60 seconds to play with!

You're right. That's the biggest danger.

 

[rmt4ever]

You'd think so, but I've had to wait about 5 mins at Edgware Road on occasions, hence why I always take the first train out of King's Cross/Euston Square and change at Baker St if it's a Met.

I was pleased to avoid even stopping at that wretched place last time I went to Paddington

Trouble is at ERD the trains in 2/3 are so tight on turnarounds. Only scheduled for 5/6 minutes. so if the train gets in 4 minutes late that leaves only 1/2 minutes. The signaller will inevitably clear the signal 'on-time' for that train to go back out towards Padd (Underground), but the driver has obviously gone to the loo/still doing checks/gone for a ciggie etc. And with the stick off from 2/3 you can't let a (on-time) train from 4 depart to Paddington Sub.

Ahh if only LT had heard of a little magical invention called TRTS plungers, its not bloody rocket science. But then you would inevitably have a (on-time) train outside the station waiting to come in, blocking any trains from arriving in P1 to go towards Baker St, Kings X, City etc. Losing battle!!!!!

Thats the **** you get with only giving 4/5 min turnarounds. They never learn

 

[johnnychips]

Thanks guys for the brilliant responses , I did look into this when booking the tickets and a few sites said 10 minutes from Euston to Paddington on the tube, but looking at the responses, I might change my ticket (with a £10 charge) and leave on a train that gets me into Euston at 07:52, giving me around 20 minutes more so I should be ok, and possibly ok for my Maccys breakfast

Taxi could be less messing around and not much dearer than changing ticket

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/taxisandminicabs/taxis/1140.aspx

(It is 2.5 miles from Euston to Paddington)

However, taking an earlier train minimises problem if your original train is late, so that's probably better.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks guys for the brilliant responses , I did look into this when booking the tickets and a few sites said 10 minutes from Euston to Paddington on the tube

It may well take 10 minutes from Euston to Paddington by tube, but that doesn't matter. You still have to get down to the tube on potentially long escalators (or, if using Euston Square, walk to the separate sub-surface station).

The figure you need to concern yourself with is 43 minutes, but if you are wondering how it's calculated, it's the Euston minimum interchange time (15 mins) plus an average estimated LU journey time (13 minutes) plus the Paddington minimum interchange time (15 mins), totalling 43 minutes.

but looking at the responses, I might change my ticket (with a £10 charge) and leave on a train that gets me into Euston at 07:52, giving me around 20 minutes more so I should be ok, and possibly ok for my Maccys breakfast

You're almost as obsessed with McDonalds as district (but let's not go off-topic!) however yes that is a good idea, to ensure you are covered. The £10 admin fee is a discretionary charge (ie, they might not charge you if you explain) but is in addition to any additional cost if the itinerary you want costs a higher amount than the amount you have paid. (So book soon in case the price increases, if it hasn't already)

How about coming back, train arrives into Paddington from Pembroke at 15:33, train leaves Euston 16:10. 40 minutes, does that sound decent or is that in requirement of a new ticket?

Thanks

Depends on how do you define "decent" (rhetorical question; no need to answer)

It's not a valid connection, though it would be enough if the train is on time.

The caveats posted above apply, except in reverse. So if your train is late arriving, you want to be getting off nearer the rear (I am sure someone can advise the exact coach and door position) to go up the stairs to the footbridge to the Circle/H&C Line, or if you are at the very front, I'd be tempted to go for the Bakerloo Line tube, but if doing that I'd not change at Baker St (due to the fact you then have 2 platforms to pick from) but would instead change at Oxford Circus for the Victoria Line tube which takes you straight to Euston.

 

[38Cto15E]

Last week I did Leicester-St Pancras-Kings Cross-Inverness-Aberdeen-Kings Cross-St Pancras-Leicester using Advances (mainly).
On my return journey I only had 24 minutes in London to cross from Kings Cross to St Pancras if using Advance tickets,because I needed 30 minutes I decided the risk was too great and bought an Off Peak return beforehand, a good job because the Aberdeen train was 18 minutes late into The Cross, I would just about have made the connection 20 years ago, but last week I had just gone through the barriers at St Pancras when the doors locked on the 1515, it was no big deal as the next train was only 10 minutes later and non stop to Leicester, but it was a 4 car Meridian.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

When crossing London (with the exception of stations next door like Kings Cross / St Pancras) I always leave 1 hour if using separate time critical tickets like that (such as the time I used Advance on EC into KGX then Mega Train from Waterloo). . Whilst most interchanges can be done a lot quicker this is a good time to use to avoid rushing, and leaves a bit of slack for mainline delays, underground delays and the often necessary purchase of refreshments, be they edible or alcoholic. I have been transferring across London for years and always work on that basis.

 

[yorkie]

.... I always leave 1 hour.... I have been transferring across London for years and always work on that basis.

I usually do likewise. There are a few interchanges which are longer than 60 minutes, but none of them involve King's Cross (or Euston).

That said, I am planning a trip where I have to allow more than an hour as we need to do Waterloo - King's Cross with bikes, so we have to observe the minimum connection times applicable to a journey via the FCC Thameslink route. (before anyone says "cycle it", we will have done many miles of cycling already ad we aren't familiar with the route, nor would we want to attempt it at what will be a busy time, and in reality we'll do the journey in a fraction of the time so can have food at KGX while we wait!)

 

[sheff1]

If that happens to be a Met, most people would let it go, but I wouldn't! I'd walk through the train (S Stock - easily done) to get off at the 4th car at Baker St, dash down the steps and follow signs to Bakerloo Northbound, it's a surprisingly easy interchange. This avoids a wait at Euston Square, and the Bakerloo is quicker than the Circle/H&C!

I wish I had thought of that last year, when I ended up just missing my Penzance train at Paddington due to the almost obligatory 3 min wait at Edgware Rd .

I did get delay compensation as I was on a valid connection, but I would much rather have been on board than hanging around at Paddington for an hour. I now know for the future .

 

[maniacmartin]

The transfer time you need to allow at that time of day (0700 - 1900) between Euston and Paddington is 13 minutes.

You then need to add the minimum connection time for Euston (15 minutes) and Paddington (15 minutes), which makes 43 minutes in total.

Thus you need to allow at least 43 minutes if you want to be covered in case you miss your second train as a result of the the first train being late.

If you are using the tickets in your opening post, I agree with yorkie's advice to not go via Edgware Road Circle/District station, where trains seem to wait forever.

 

[SeanG]

What about buying a ticket for the underground?
Have we factored that in, given you are on two separate tickets and there is no provision in them for tube travel IIRC?

(incidentally the thing to do is *apparently* get a ticket to the first stop outside your London terminal in order to get the tube transfer, often cheaper. Anyway I digress)

 

[aleph_0]

That said, I am planning a trip where I have to allow more than an hour as we need to do Waterloo - King's Cross with bikes, so we have to observe the minimum connection times applicable to a journey via the FCC Thameslink route. (before anyone says "cycle it", we will have done many miles of cycling already ad we aren't familiar with the route, nor would we want to attempt it at what will be a busy time, and in reality we'll do the journey in a fraction of the time so can have food at KGX while we wait!)

Maybe you've already though of this, but I would suggest considering cycling along the south bank to Blackfriars, rather than Waterloo East-London-Bridge-Kings Cross. Out onto taxi-road, across toucan crossing, follow quiet route along Upper Ground, nip along the last alley before Blackfriars Road Bridge, under the bridge, and you're there.

 

[yorkie]

What about buying a ticket for the underground?
Have we factored that in, given you are on two separate tickets and there is no provision in them for tube travel IIRC?

(incidentally the thing to do is *apparently* get a ticket to the first stop outside your London terminal in order to get the tube transfer, often cheaper. Anyway I digress)

I am assuming he is using Oyster, and will have credit pre-loaded, which is going to be quickest.

However, depending on the journey, it can be better to buy a through ticket involving a cross-London transfer or, alternatively, a ticket from U1 London.

Maybe you've already though of this, but I would suggest considering cycling along the south bank to Blackfriars, rather than Waterloo East-London-Bridge-Kings Cross. Out onto taxi-road, across toucan crossing, follow quiet route along Upper Ground, nip along the last alley before Blackfriars Road Bridge, under the bridge, and you're there.

Thanks. We well do that, using the new entrance at Blackfriars makes that option easier (though I did calculate that London Bridge would be cross-platform if we picked our train carefully). But I still think that we need to allow enough time for an itinerary via London Bridge, to be officially covered.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I am assuming he is using Oyster, and will have credit pre-loaded, which is going to be quickest.

However, depending on the journey, it can be better to buy a through ticket involving a cross-London transfer or, alternatively, a ticket from U1 London.

I am using Oyster with credit loaded on it. Will be easier and slightly quicker than using tickets. I am looking changing my outbound ticket (Chester-Euston) but keeping the inward (Euston-Chester) as it gives me a 40 minute connection time, and if it's 43 minutes which makes it valid, I should be fine for that one, knowing that it isn't a valid connection but still doable.

Got me thinking about a time when I made it off the H&C line platforms at Paddington to a Greenford train in 1 minute. I was with member Trainboy98 at the time.

 

[Goatboy]

it gives me a 40 minute connection time, and if it's 43 minutes which makes it valid, I should be fine for that one, knowing that it isn't a valid connection but still doable.

If your inbound train is late, you are buying a new ticket. I'm really not sure why you feel this is a worthy risk?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm surprised that it's taking 2 pages of replies to tell the OP the simple fact that if the full 'minimum connection time' is not allocated between trains, then the subsequent Advance ticket need not be honoured in the event that the previous train was delayed to the extent that the next train was missed.

That's the point that matters. Not whether the time is 'doable', not whether it is across Central London or at the same station, not whether it is on First or Standard class tickets.

As it happens, I make cross London transfers while travelling on Advance tickets and allowing for less than the published 'minimum connection time', but I do it in the full expectation that I'm at risk of buying a new ticket for a later service in the event of delays. That's one of the penalties attached to using Advance tickets in this way.

(and on the cross London theme - I agree that the Waterloo - Kings Cross route is better via Upper Ground. I have even walked it, briskly, in 30 minutes. Kings Cross to Paddington will be similar, in heavy traffic it can take 20 minutes on a bike).

 

[DJ737]

G'day

Why are you travelling from Chester to Pembroke Dock via London?

Wouldn't Chester-Crewe-Newport-Pembroke Dock be a better option?

And what are you going to do in Pembroke Dock for two weeks?

I get the train from Lamphey to the Dock, go shopping at Tesco's, have a pint at the station pub and still manage to get the same train back to Lamphey

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[Flamingo]

If the OP is late, the chances are that the Customer Information point will endorse their ticket for later travel, as they are a minor (and nobody will want the hassle of refusing travel to a minor).

McDonalds will probably be quiet, but if the South Wales train is going off 8,9, or10 it's a fair walk. I'd bring a picnic if I was him!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You'll be on 1A01 (Manchester-) Crewe-Euston.
Seems to have quite a good performance record on Saturdays. 5 minutes early last Saturday.
http://raildar.co.uk/timetable/journey?trainid=P50553&dt=2013-06-22

But I agree Euston Square-Paddington often sees expectations dashed at Baker St or Edgware Road (or even before GPS!)...
I used to find it more trustworthy eastbound (from the H&C platform).