Stored 508 update

[prod_pep]

The 2 motor cars from 507022 ARE still in use.

The DMS A Car from 507022(no 64426) is now part of a 314 unit in Scotland.

The DMS B Car from 507022(no 64388) is now the DMS B car in 507004 (the unit it collided with) The DMS B car from 507004 (no 64369) has been scrapped.

The centre car from 507004 was less damaged in the collision that the centre car in 507022, so they decided to use keep 004, however the DMS B car in 507004 was damaged more than the DMS B car in 507022.

I hope they donate parts such as door motors to Merseyrail to keep them going for as long as possible!

Just to tie this one up:

Carriage 64426 (ex 507022) is now part of 314203, reformed 1996.
Carriage 64388 (ex 507022) has replaced 64370 in 507004's formation, reformed 1991. 64370 nominally renumbered as part of 507022 before being scrapped at McMetals with redundant 507022 trailer 71363 in December 1996.

Neither trailer car was damaged in the collision as far as I know (certainly 507022's wasn't). They chose to keep 507004 likely due to its earlier numbering within the class.

Unfortunately, I doubt the door motors would be compatible. Merseyrail's fleet had its doors and door air system replaced as part of the refurbishment in 2002-05. There isn't much in the way of interior parts that could be re-used, and a lot of underfloor equipment would need replacing given the length of time these units have spent on the sidelines.

 

[Matt Taylor]

71483 and one of the driving cars from 508209 have recently been moved to the same area of the works where the c-stock is currently being prepped for scrapping:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/8966808369/in/photostream

 

[50047]

I don't see a lack of vision, just pragmatism especially given the woes faced by much older units on preserved lines - if they can't be used under their own power the only option for a sustainable future is loco haulage for which they'd be neither suitable nor popular, and with no real following amongst enthusiasts they aren't going to attract much if any volunteer support or donations for their upkeep.

Chris

I see a lack of vision beyond that of considering running them. Yes, hauling them is not a realistic option and there will never be a specific PEP enthusiast group, but I have heard many groups talk of a lack of storage space and visited railways saying that they are looking for vehicles they can put on platform ends as shops etc... For that they could have been used, and although the Connex and former LOROL liveried ones were in a dire state, the South Eastern livery vehicles most certainly are not. I am not thinking of PEP preservation here, but more a potential use for vehicles that are available for next to nothing (beyond transportation of course), when MK1s, GUVs etc are no longer readily available. A new railway, targeted specifically in this case, you'd have thought may appreciate vehicles for this purpose, especially given the almost complete lack of asbestos and that they are donated, but no reply. Another asked instead, 'do you have a steam engine?'. Funnily enough, no. A complete lack of steam engines in stock right now. Further, a response costs nothing! Still, when you're sidings are full of wagons rusting away and boilers dumped on flat wagons, all of which will likely never be restored, then you haven't got room for something that can be painted in a livery that raises interest and put to genuine use, even temporarily until something better comes along.

 

[D365]

I see a lack of vision beyond that of considering running them. Yes, hauling them is not a realistic option and there will never be a specific PEP enthusiast group, but I have heard many groups talk of a lack of storage space and visited railways saying that they are looking for vehicles they can put on platform ends as shops etc... For that they could have been used, and although the Connex and former LOROL liveried ones were in a dire state, the South Eastern livery vehicles most certainly are not. I am not thinking of PEP preservation here, but more a potential use for vehicles that are available for next to nothing (beyond transportation of course), when MK1s, GUVs etc are no longer readily available. A new railway, targeted specifically in this case, you'd have thought may appreciate vehicles for this purpose, especially given the almost complete lack of asbestos and that they are donated, but no reply. Another asked instead, 'do you have a steam engine?'. Funnily enough, no. A complete lack of steam engines in stock right now. Further, a response costs nothing! Still, when you're sidings are full of wagons rusting away and boilers dumped on flat wagons, all of which will likely never be restored, then you haven't got room for something that can be painted in a livery that raises interest and put to genuine use, even temporarily until something better comes along.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=344060

Would be nice perhaps to see a 508/3 preserved and returned to 4-car formation (313 compatible from the Watford days - how difficult was the mod, I wonder), but once again, in short, realistically I only see 313201 likely to remain, in preservation. A shame though, that these have been rotting in Eastleigh. A real shame indeed.

 

[43021HST]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=344060

Would be nice perhaps to see a 508/3 preserved and returned to 4-car formation (313 compatible from the Watford days - how difficult was the mod, I wonder), but once again, in short, realistically I only see 313201 likely to remain, in preservation. A shame though, that these have been rotting in Eastleigh. A real shame indeed.

To be honest its a silly idea to preserve a 508, the couplings will be incompatible with most preserved stock and difficult to operate and simply why would you want to preserve one?

 

[455driver]

To be honest its a silly idea to preserve a 508, the couplings will be incompatible with most preserved stock and difficult to operate and simply why would you want to preserve one?

Because they are a part of our railway heritage and an example deserved to be preserved!

Why do we need 30 (or however many it is) class 37s most of which will just sit in sidings rotting?

 

[8J]

455 Driver is spot on there! I like the PEP units, not because they are good trains, but particuarly in Merseyside, they have served us well. There is a lone class 502 being restored by a group called friends of the 502. The unit is stored in the Merseyside Transport Trust facility in Burscough and despite being left to rot, the group are slowly restoring the unit to its former glory.

Yes there is probably no justification storing or preserving any of the 508's down south as they are in a poor condition, but some of the units on the Merseyrail network are in good condition.

Another reason to preserve PEP unit is that the queen travelled on 507001 on the first day of 507 operation. They do have a place for preservation in my eyes.

I doubt any new stock will arrive on merseyside until at least 2017, so if that's anything to go by, they would have done 40 years service by time the last one is withdrawn which in itself, especially with the incompatibility between the trains and the loop tunnel is an achievement

 

[507 001]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=344060

Would be nice perhaps to see a 508/3 preserved and returned to 4-car formation (313 compatible from the Watford days - how difficult was the mod, I wonder), but once again, in short, realistically I only see 313201 likely to remain, in preservation. A shame though, that these have been rotting in Eastleigh. A real shame indeed.

I'd rather see one of the merseyrail units preserved to be honest, although the 313 mod would be handy I suppose.

although I would have liked to have seen 508 301 renumbered as 508 101 in BR blue with Merseyrail 69 branding

 

[43021HST]

Because they are a part of our railway heritage and an example deserved to be preserved!

Why do we need 30 (or however many it is) class 37s most of which will just sit in sidings rotting?

37s have more use and compatibility on a heritage railway.

By the way did you see my first comment, eg big operational problems, lack of screw link couplers.

 

[cj_1985]

37s have more use and compatibility on a heritage railway.

By the way did you see my first comment, eg big operational problems, lack of screw link couplers.

in theory im sure there could have been some modification/s carried out to allow the use of such a unit on a preserved line... atleast until such time as a preserved line is electrified, access granted to the Old Dalby branch for heritage use, or until it could be returned to a condition fit for mainline use.

 

[Chris125]

I see a lack of vision beyond that of considering running them. Yes, hauling them is not a realistic option and there will never be a specific PEP enthusiast group, but I have heard many groups talk of a lack of storage space and visited railways saying that they are looking for vehicles they can put on platform ends as shops etc...

Of course but what demand there is can likely be met by the various mk1 and mk2 vehicles that come on the market, such as the GatEx buffet which the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway have just received. These are far more suitable for secure storage or commercial purposes than a modern suburban EMU with sliding doors.

Chris

 

[cj_1985]

there could always be that option that was first mooted a few years ago...
convert a couple into De-icer units... but if that was an option to be taken up I would expand the scoe a bit... make them fit for weed spraying in the summer, for RHTT in the autumn and De-Icers in the winter...

but then that comes down to the cost of purchase/lease and the conversion work, aswell as (re)training of drivers and fitters.

Same could be done in theory up on Merseyrail with other spare units... since the only other options seem to be scrap (inc use by fire services), conversion to Translator Vehicles, Conversion to SHTT/RHTT etc units or more continued storage until someone decides to scrap them or lease them...

although ideally the SHTT/RHTT type conversion would be better using class 313s since they could be used both north and south of the thames.

 

[50047]

Of course but what demand there is can likely be met by the various mk1 and mk2 vehicles that come on the market, such as the GatEx buffet which the Lincolnshire Wolds Railway have just received. These are far more suitable for secure storage or commercial purposes than a modern suburban EMU with sliding doors.

Chris

Agreed, but the issue as stated is that such vehicles as that are rare and becoming much rarer. Is a 508 trailer not a better option as a shop, than an ugly grounded freightliner container, as seen at many preserved railways? The sliding door mechansims can be disengaged and doors slid by hand or wind. Simpler than it sounds and will be demonstrated soon on a project that two vehicles will be utilised for shortly. Anyhow, the opportunity is lost and slicing them up is all that is left to do. However, should I discover some long lost steam engines or some rusting and falling apart wagons, there may be some interest in their re-use

 

[Chris125]

Agreed, but the issue as stated is that such vehicles as that are rare and becoming much rarer. Is a 508 trailer not a better option as a shop, than an ugly grounded freightliner container, as seen at many preserved railways?

If it's only intended as a short term measure perhaps not - a container is going to be cheaper and easier to keep secure, move about and dispose of. For a railway with limited resources it really doesn't surprise me.

Chris

 

[Matt Taylor]

No we don't need to preserve a 508, it would be a huge loss not to preserve a PEP unit but there are many 313s, 315s, and 314s that will be in far better condition for preservation when the time comes.

 

[cj_1985]

No we don't need to preserve a 508, it would be a huge loss not to preserve a PEP unit but there are many 313s, 315s, and 314s that will be in far better condition for preservation when the time comes.

Ideally it should be a 313... as it would (in theory atleast) be able to operate on the mainline... and being dual voltage, would be less restricted than a 314 or 315, on where it could be used, again assuming no preserved lines are electrified, nor access for heritage use granted for the Old Dalby Branch

although I suspect that the 314s may be in a better mechanical condition come disposal time (just gut instinct, not an educated guess)

 

[8J]

I have been told on another forum that a car from 508201 has arrived in Secombe (Wirral) emergency services training facility.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/9015726758

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/9014537801

 

[50047]

508302 (all three vehicles) is now on the scrapping line at Eastleigh along with 71483 and 64669. 71503 was broken up yesterday. After their disposal, next for processing should be 508303

 

[klewer]

Surprised to see they're scrapping the ex-Silverlink ones - I was under the impression these were the best of the lot? Regardless, it seems a waste of a train that could be brought back into use somewhere on 3rd Rail metals.

Just Googled 508303 and found this - how on earth a 508 was ever going to get to Liverpool Street I don't know!

 

[prod_pep]

Surprised to see they're scrapping the ex-Silverlink ones - I was under the impression these were the best of the lot? Regardless, it seems a waste of a train that could be brought back into use somewhere on 3rd Rail metals.

It's likely the Southeastern liveried ones (508203/205/207/208/210/211) are in the best condition as these were overhauled less than a year before withdrawal.

 

[Boothby97]

I have been told on another forum that a car from 508201 has arrived in Secombe (Wirral) emergency services training facility.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/9015726758

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/9014537801

64649 (ex 508201) and 64712 (ex 508209) are located at Merseyside Fire & Rescue centre

 

[cj_1985]

Surprised to see they're scrapping the ex-Silverlink ones - I was under the impression these were the best of the lot? Regardless, it seems a waste of a train that could be brought back into use somewhere on 3rd Rail metals.

Just Googled 508303 and found this - how on earth a 508 was ever going to get to Liverpool Street I don't know!

No, the ROSCO had them moved up there (it wasn't to Liverpool street in london... but hoped to be Liverpool) because they (the ROSCO) got ahead of themselves when in discussions with Merseyrail/travel.. and thought that they would be able to lease them to Merseyrail to provide additional capacity, but they had them moved north before they even had any sort of agreement, official or unofficial, to lease them. after being at warrington for a while, they were moved to the Telford Railfreight terminal, since it was fairly secure and wasn't getting used for anything else.

 

[klewer]

No, the ROSCO had them moved up there (it wasn't to Liverpool street in london... but hoped to be Liverpool) because they (the ROSCO) got ahead of themselves when in discussions with Merseyrail/travel.. and thought that they would be able to lease them to Merseyrail to provide additional capacity, but they had them moved north before they even had any sort of agreement, official or unofficial, to lease them. after being at warrington for a while, they were moved to the Telford Railfreight terminal, since it was fairly secure and wasn't getting used for anything else.

I was on about the destination blind - but thanks for the info!

 

[50047]

No, the ROSCO had them moved up there (it wasn't to Liverpool street in london... but hoped to be Liverpool) because they (the ROSCO) got ahead of themselves when in discussions with Merseyrail/travel.. and thought that they would be able to lease them to Merseyrail to provide additional capacity, but they had them moved north before they even had any sort of agreement, official or unofficial, to lease them. after being at warrington for a while, they were moved to the Telford Railfreight terminal, since it was fairly secure and wasn't getting used for anything else.

No one spent circa 20k on movements merely 'getting ahead of themselves'. Here are the facts as available in page 1 of this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevan Price
Two 508 sets were towed to Warrington for inspection a couple of years ago, but Merseyrail (or Merseytravel) apparently decided it would be too expensive to restore them to Merseyrail standard.

Response
That isn't completely correct. Two sets were moved to Warrington as a deal for their lease was about to be concluded. That fell through shortly after. There was some debate and whilst this was taking place the units remained there. They were then returned to Eastleigh. The units in question were for an alternative use by Merseyrail and after that, potential upgrade to the same standard as their existing fleet. Their condition was known long before they departed Eastleigh
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's likely the Southeastern liveried ones (508203/205/207/208/210/211) are in the best condition as these were overhauled less than a year before withdrawal.

Quite correct. The three former LOROL units have as extensive corrosion as the former Connex livery units. Mechanically yes the 508/3s, they are far better than the former Connex, as recent running for at least two of them has proved, but they need extensive repairs beyond that of mechanical overhaul
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was on about the destination blind - but thanks for the info!

I believe the 508s were just fitted with the standard LOROL 313 blinds during preparation for their LOROL work. Hence the unfeasible destinations--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

508302 (all three vehicles) is now on the scrapping line at Eastleigh along with 71483 and 64669. 71503 was broken up yesterday. After their disposal, next for processing should be 508303

71483 has now been broken up

 

[cj_1985]

No one spent circa 20k on movements merely 'getting ahead of themselves'. Here are the facts as available in page 1 of this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevan Price
Two 508 sets were towed to Warrington for inspection a couple of years ago, but Merseyrail (or Merseytravel) apparently decided it would be too expensive to restore them to Merseyrail standard.

Response
That isn't completely correct. Two sets were moved to Warrington as a deal for their lease was about to be concluded. That fell through shortly after. There was some debate and whilst this was taking place the units remained there. They were then returned to Eastleigh. The units in question were for an alternative use by Merseyrail and after that, potential upgrade to the same standard as their existing fleet. Their condition was known long before they departed Eastleigh

Many thanks for correcting, what was a faulty understanding of the circumstances on my part.

 

[Boothby97]

No, the ROSCO had them moved up there (it wasn't to Liverpool street in london... but hoped to be Liverpool) because they (the ROSCO) got ahead of themselves when in discussions with Merseyrail/travel.. and thought that they would be able to lease them to Merseyrail to provide additional capacity, but they had them moved north before they even had any sort of agreement, official or unofficial, to lease them. after being at warrington for a while, they were moved to the Telford Railfreight terminal, since it was fairly secure and wasn't getting used for anything else.

None of the Silverlink 508s went to Telford, just the 12 Southeastern 508s

 

[8J]

Are there any pictures of the 508's as they are in their last few days?

 

[Ciderking]

Are there any pictures of the 508's as they are in their last few days?

Here's one I took last week in typical condition for the ex Connex units.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sparrowhawk7/8951338774/

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any pictures of the 508's as they are in their last few days?

Could be worth having a browse through Carl Watson's site, eg 5th June:

http://www.carlswatson.com/trains.html

 

[90sWereBetter]

http://www.wnxx.com/content/110513/eastleigh.works.htm

One of the driving cars from 508201 is in a hell of a state at Eastleigh. This was taken some two months ago...

How long have the Connex-livered units been out of traffic for now?