Cross Country route pre-Voyagers

[dk1]

Yes, reliability was dreadful. If Virgin Trains had not tried to save money and had paid to have their stock maintained properly, rather than patched up, during the period leading up to the introduction of Voyagers and Pendolinos, things would have been better.

But I remember it being dreadful under BR. During the 80s thing where no always good. INTERCITY came along with there lovely executive livery but that was all it was. Still breakdowns & no air-con across the board.

 

[Boothby97]

Of course if you're nostalgic a lot of the old stock is still about, albeit not in National Rail service

For instance I saw a rake of Virgin Mk2s pass my house this very evening, on a service from Scarborough to Bristol.

Yes, some of the Mk2s are still around as there are useful assets for charter operators. Some of the WCRC fleet is ex Virgin (most of which carry Maroon livery), and Riviera Trains do still operate a rake of coaches that retain Virgin colours, which is what you saw.
Also, 47805 (which was on that charter) was once part of the virgin fleet and carried VT colours

Does anyone know what the frequency was for the routes that still operate under CrossCountry (so Manchester-Bournemouth, Newcastle-Reading,Edinburgh-Plymouth, etc)
Thanks, Sam

 

[theblackwatch]

Totally aggree that things where more interesting even though far less frequent. What I also remember was the dreadful reliability. This related to Cross-Country and West Coast. It's a different world nowadays whether you like it or not.

Cross Country's right time performance for the last year was 46.3% - the worst of any TOC in the country (see http://www.networkrail.co.uk/about/performance/ ). Now I'm unsure if this is an improvement on the pre-Voyager days, but its certainly not something I'd consider to be good, or worth shouting about.

 

[dk1]

Last months PPM stood at 91.6% for XC. That sounds pretty good for such a vast network.

 

[43074]

Does anyone know what the frequency was for the routes that still operate under CrossCountry (so Manchester-Bournemouth, Newcastle-Reading,Edinburgh-Plymouth, etc)
Thanks, Sam

According to the Summer 1999 National Rail Timetable:
Manchester to Bournemouth - 3tpd each way all of which started in Manchester (at 05:24, 06:17 and 08:17) and ran through to Bournemouth. Other services ran from the North West to Bournemouth including a daily Liverpool to Poole return and 2tpd which started in Scotland and ran direct down the WCML - i.e. not via Manchester. Now hourly.

Reading to Newcastle - 2tpd in each direction connected Reading and Newcastle directly. There was an 09:05 from Poole and a 12:20 from Bournemouth, the latter of which ran through to Edinburgh. There was also a 16:20 Bournemouth to Leeds. In the other direction there was an 06:20 from Edinburgh to Bournemouth and an 11:08 Bournemouth to Newcastle. Now hourly.

Edinburgh to Plymouth - 2tpd in each direction. There was an 06:39 Dundee to Penzance which was non-stop from Birmingham to Bristol, and an 07:10 Edinburgh to Plymouth. In the other direction there was an 09:22 Penzance to Edinburgh and a 14:12 Plymouth to Edinburgh.

Bristol to Manchester - 4tpd to the North West. There was an 06:10 Bristol to Manchester, an interesting 07:20 Plymouth to Aberdeen via Manchester & Edinburgh, an 08:48 Penzance to Manchester and a 15:28 Bristol to Edinburgh via Manchester. There was also a return Liverpool to Plymouth service, although this didn't run via Manchester, I'm just adding this for completeness. In the other direction there were 2tpd, both of which started in Scotland (Glasgow Central and Aberdeen) and the went through to Penzance and Plymouth respectively.

There were also services to Portsmouth from Liverpool & Blackpool and to Brighton from Manchester and Glasgow.

The service we have today is better than this with respect to frequencies, but it was at a cost, and places like Portsmouth, Brighton, Cardiff, Swansea and Liverpool to name but a few have slipped off the XC network.

The full pre Voyager timetable is here - go to page 26. (I know it's from 2001 but it didn't change much between 1999 and 2001)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With an operation like Cross Country's, is it better to have an intensive service on the core, or is it better to have a less intensive service on the core route and to serve a wide range of destinations at the extremities of the network?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I notice Cross Gates is on that map. Why? Was the map from the time that Leeds City station was closed for remodelling?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I notice Cross Gates is on that map. Why? Was the map from the time that Leeds City station was closed for remodelling?

There was one daily train in the evening peak that called as far as I know.

 

[Welshman]

IIRC, one morning service from York [0743?] called at Cross Gates - more, I think for commuters into Leeds rather than any XC traffic.

 

[theblackwatch]

IIRC, one morning service from York [0743?] called at Cross Gates - more, I think for commuters into Leeds rather than any XC traffic.

Yes it was a morning one. In a similar way, the Harrogate-King's Cross HST calls at Horsforth (pu only) on weekdays and is used by a large number of commuters into Leeds. They must all struggle to get onto the following unit on the occasions that the HST is cancelled.

 

[CC 72100]

Yes, quite considerably. 125 mph Voyagers made a dent in journey times (although somewhat undermined by the frequency of stops on some routes), even where they replaced HSTs (even though they have the same top speed, HSTs have much poorer acceleration and no tilt).

Although of course on the XC examples these days the tilt is not used.

 

[Mugby]

The linespeed between Derby and Birmingham is now largely 125mph but to the best of my knowledge the timings are still same as they were in pre Voyager days.

Every time I travel on this section the Voyagers don't seem to be doing 125, does anyone know if the gain in speed is used purely for recovery purposes?

 

[tbtc]

By the way, it's also worth remembering that at the time of the diagram posted upthread (2001), VXC ran quite a few services with a single 158. Such as the infamous Portsmouth to Blackpool service.

I remember Edinburgh to Manchester on a 158. Something those complaining about 350s not being long enough ought to consider!

anyone know what were service patterns from EDB - New Street and beyond via the ECML were?

Roughly hourly from Birmingham to Newcastle (some via Leeds, some via Doncaster, some via Doncaster *and* Leeds), only two or three a day north of Newcastle though

 

[yorksrob]

When travelling between Leeds and Reading at the time I remember the Mk 2's were comfortable and nicely refurbed, but very poorly maintained with lighting not working, carriages locked out of use etc. Sunday's always seemed to involve a two hour interchange at Birmingham NS as well.

 

[30907]

anyone know what were service patterns from EDB - New Street and beyond via the ECML were?

Basically: zilch north of Newcastle (unless there was something in marginal time early morning from EDB and late evening back, which I've forgotten about).

 

[flhh66555]

Its an interesting thread. Being a late 70's early 80's basher I can remember only this. Trains were never cancelled. Failures were always assisted to the destination (if possible). the variety was fantastic and the mk1 and early mk2 stock in reasonable condition. obviously summer Saturdays were the most frequent NE/SW but in the Leeds area there did seem a quite regular weekday service. I basically gave up in 1987 with the influx of Sprinters. From your comments though it seems that BR really ran the stock to death. The 0950 Edinburgh-Plymouth was a regular return working for Class 50's. Deltic usually to York. Happy Days indeed.

 

[tractakid]

I love that map. I'm not much of a history fan, but old maps are fascinating.

 

[tbtc]

Basically: zilch north of Newcastle (unless there was something in marginal time early morning from EDB and late evening back, which I've forgotten about).

Two or three a day for placing journey purposes (presumably the HSTs "lived" at Craigentinny) - southbound early in the morning and northbound in the evening - used to be almost empty (compared to the London services north of Newcastle at similar times of day).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Its an interesting thread. Being a late 70's early 80's basher I can remember only this. Trains were never cancelled. Failures were always assisted to the destination (if possible). the variety was fantastic and the mk1 and early mk2 stock in reasonable condition. obviously summer Saturdays were the most frequent NE/SW but in the Leeds area there did seem a quite regular weekday service. I basically gave up in 1987 with the influx of Sprinters. From your comments though it seems that BR really ran the stock to death. The 0950 Edinburgh-Plymouth was a regular return working for Class 50's. Deltic usually to York. Happy Days indeed.

My all lines tt for Summer 81 shows 3 North West to South West trains running via the Marches and Severn Tunnel Junction. 0948 ex Paignton to Liverpool Lime St arr 1607, 1135 ex Paignton to Manchester Piccadilly arr 1749 & 1050 ex Penzance to Manchester Piccadily arr 1946. 0022 ex Manchester Piccadily to Paignton arr 0702, 0838 ex Manchester Piccadilly to Newquay arr 1721 and 0935 ex Liverpool Lime St to Paignton arrr 1549.
Would have been 10 coach Mk1 rakes with a 47 on them.

There's a 2208 ex York to Shrewsbury arr 0303 Mk2 half brake on back of mail train, which connected with 0345 to Swansea via Heart of Wales and 0410 to Aberystwyth DMU's. The 0147 Crewe to Cardiff arr 0508 was another overnight-er!

 

[CC 72100]

Yes, reliability was dreadful. If Virgin Trains had not tried to save money and had paid to have their stock maintained properly, rather than patched up, during the period leading up to the introduction of Voyagers and Pendolinos, things would have been better.

I remember at one point virgin (XC) were having so many problems with the mark 2s that at one point, short formed, 5 coach trains were quite common. Now we know where Bombardier got their inspiration from...

It was quite common to have Air con failures and no lights, as Virgin did the bare minimum in terms of maintenance and as another poster has pointed out, just patched up things.

From what I remember, the West Coast mark 3 sets (and mark 2 ones) were much better maintained, possibly down to the fact that they were running to London Not uncommon for a mark 3 + DVT set to turn up on an XC working, especially on a summer Saturday though. Had a fair few to/from Paignton when we traveled down on a later train as opposed to the 06:00 Derby - Paignton.

 

[AlexS]

I remember them being appalling, just in a different way to now.

You still had to sit in the luggage racks or on the floor on Summer Saturday services, the trains were regularly hours (literally) late, or cancelled, and the class 47s were knackered with freight locos regularly deputising, which meant your power was reduced to whatever the batteries on the carriages were capable of and no ventilation. The HSTs didn't seem to fare much better at times.

Chugging around the countryside at somewhere south of 95 mph was a less than speedy way of getting where you were going anyway, and there was a lot of time spent sat at Birmingham New Street for things like loco changes on the hauled sets.

It's nice to be nostalgic, but being realistic, there needed to be a change.

I just wish the change hadn't been to silly 4 carriage devices that are still full and standing on busy trains and empty on less busy trains.

 

[Greenback]

There's a 2208 ex York to Shrewsbury arr 0303 Mk2 half brake on back of mail train, which connected with 0345 to Swansea via Heart of Wales and 0410 to Aberystwyth DMU's. The 0147 Crewe to Cardiff arr 0508 was another overnight-er!

A bit off topic, but the 2208 and 0345 services were the remnants of the old York - Swansea Victoria service which ran for many years conveying passengers and mail. I expect it used to carry newspaper traffic as well.

Of course, before sectorisation and privatisation, a lot of inter regional routes (which might now be considered as cross country) like the Marches were neglected. The local service on the line in the early 1980's was pretty sparse, places like Ludlow and Leominster were poorly served with large gaps between services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A bit off topic, but the 2208 and 0345 services were the remnants of the old York - Swansea Victoria service which ran for many years conveying passengers and mail. I expect it used to carry newspaper traffic as well.

Of course, before sectorisation and privatisation, a lot of inter regional routes (which might now be considered as cross country) like the Marches were neglected. The local service on the line in the early 1980's was pretty sparse, places like Ludlow and Leominster were poorly served with large gaps between services.

York to Aberystwyth portion too, there were more trains on the Cambrian on Summer Saturdays in 81 then there are for 2013. Ludlow and Leominsters services are vastly improved compared to 8/9 trains a day in 81. I should add that the through SW to NW trains were Saturday only by that stage, not sure how long they lasted going that way. The regular weekdays trains were diverted via Birmingham in the early 70's. My summer 51tt shows no fewer than 18 Friday night/Saturday through expresses along the Marches.

 

[Eagle]

I love that map. I'm not much of a history fan, but old maps are fascinating.

I got it from this site.

 

[didcot]

Didnt there use to be a summer Saturdays only New St - Weymouth as well?

 

[4SRKT]

Didnt there use to be a summer Saturdays only New St - Weymouth as well?

There was a summer Saturdays Bradford > Weymouth for years, running via Brighouse, Huddersfield and Penistone to reach Sheffield.

 

[Eagle]

Didnt there use to be a summer Saturdays only New St - Weymouth as well?

There were summer XC trains to Weymouth up until 1999 (the same time as Margate was dropped); however of course Weymouth temporarily got its XC services back last summer.

 

[50010 Monarch]

York to Aberystwyth portion too, there were more trains on the Cambrian on Summer Saturdays in 81 then there are for 2013. Ludlow and Leominsters services are vastly improved compared to 8/9 trains a day in 81. I should add that the through SW to NW trains were Saturday only by that stage, not sure how long they lasted going that way. The regular weekdays trains were diverted via Birmingham in the early 70's. My summer 51tt shows no fewer than 18 Friday night/Saturday through expresses along the Marches.

I'm fairly certain Summer 1982 was the last timetable which included the Summer Saturday expresses via the Marches.

There was also the motorail (Newton Abbot to Stirling?) which lasted until 1984.

The Marches local service was indeed shocking in the late 70's/early 80's. Improvements started in around 1985 with extensions to/from Manchester from Cardiff followed by the Cardiff to Holyhead & return. The real improvement arrived with Sprinterisation in 1987 or 1988. Certain services remained loco hauled for quite a while though due to problems/shortages regarding the new units.

 

[shaun]

I've been extremely unlucky in that i only started regularly using XC once the HSTs were replaced with Voyagers. I did once use a '47' out of Paddington to Oxford many years back, an HST between Reading and Oxford, plus the occasional trip from East Croydon - Kensington Olympia on the Zone 1-6 travelcard. So i never really got the chance to sample the HST's/loco sets on most of the routes (i have stuck to the scheduled HSTs since for long-distance journeys but they're very limited). Can't imagine an HST at all running between say Manchester and Bournemouth with all those stops, as much as i'd love to have tried one. The thought wouldn't even occur nowadays unless i really had to. The voyagers are always overcrowded post-Birmingham on that route, which is why i choose to go via London on Chiltern and then back out on SWT.

I remember there being lots of seats whenever i used them, but then they weren't the busiest services anyway. I never was a fan of the Mk2 coaches as they were noisy and draughty, but couldn't fault the HSTs. Really didn't deserve to be replaced, they could've been like the Chiltern loco-hauled sets by now with power doors and much much more space than the Voyagers.

 

[GearJammer]

It always seemed daft to me the amount of money that was spent converting the XC 47/8s into 57s for them just to be used as thunderbirds, i often wonder what XC would be like now if the 47/8s had all been rebuilt into 57s and carried on being used by XC useing refurbished MK2 or 3 stock.

Imagine a 57 pulling MK3 stock refurbished to Chiltern standards on cross country routes, granted journey times might be longer but the experiance would be nicer than a voyager.

I dislike the Voyagers, in fact i hate them and vow that i will never use one again, id rather drive my car.

 

[transmanche]

i often wonder what XC would be like now if the 47/8s had all been rebuilt into 57s and carried on being used by XC useing refurbished MK2 or 3 stock

Yay, let's run XC with 50 year old locos and carriages!

Nostalgia fans, that's what heritage railways are for; not the National Rail network...