Cross Country route pre-Voyagers

[Muzer]

What was the Cross Country route like before the Voyagers came in? Was the route itself any different? Were there more/fewer stops?

 

[Eagle]

This is the Virgin route network as at December 2001.

(Routes VT0 to VT4 are XC; routes VT5 to VT9 are WC.)

 

[Masbroughlad]

Much better than it is now!!

 

[Eagle]

Not in terms of frequency though. Routes were served infrequently and sporadically, with many branches getting just one or two trains a day.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yes, for example around 1999:
Bournemouth-Poole was 2tpd
Bristol-Swansea was 1tpd
Liverpool-Preston was 1tpd
Reading-Portsmouth was 3tpd
Reading-Brighton was 2tpd
Edinburgh-Aberdeen was 2tpd

 

[4SRKT]

The frequency was grim in the 80s. Often having to wait up to two hours at New Street for a train to York; now more or less half hourly. Northbound from New St towards Derby in the summer 1987 book we have:

07:15 Newcastle
08:00 (06:17 ex-Bristol) Leeds
09:00 (07:04 ex-Cardiff) Newcastle
10:30 (06:37 ex-Plymouth) Leeds
11:30 (07:53 ex-Plymouth) Newcastle
13:00 (07:30 ex-Penzance) Newcastle
14:00 (12:03 ex-Cardiff) York
14:55 (10:38 ex-Poole) Newcastle
16:00 (12:38 ex-Paignton) Leeds
16:45 (13:03 ex-Bristol) York
17:45 (15:10 ex-Exeter) Newcastle
18:45 (14:50 ex-Plymouth) York
19:45 (18:04 ex-Bristol) Bradford Interchange
22:00 (18:05 ex-Plymouth) York

And that's it. All HSTs by 1987 except the Poole > Newcastle. There was also any hourly class 150 Birmingham > Lincoln via Derby, but this was a new innovation in the 1987 book. The start of the Sprinter Revolution.

 

[EssexGonzo]

The frequency was grim in the 80s. Often having to wait up to two hours at New Street for a train to York; now more or less half hourly. Northbound from New St towards Derby in the summer 1987 book we have:

07:15 Newcastle
08:00 (06:17 ex-Bristol) Leeds
09:00 (07:04 ex-Cardiff) Newcastle
10:30 (06:37 ex-Plymouth) Leeds
11:30 (07:53 ex-Plymouth) Newcastle
13:00 (07:30 ex-Penzance) Newcastle
14:00 (12:03 ex-Cardiff) York
14:55 (10:38 ex-Poole) Newcastle
16:00 (12:38 ex-Paignton) Leeds
16:45 (13:03 ex-Bristol) York
17:45 (15:10 ex-Exeter) Newcastle
18:45 (14:50 ex-Plymouth) York
19:45 (18:04 ex-Bristol) Bradford Interchange
22:00 (18:05 ex-Plymouth) York

And that's it. All HSTs by 1987 except the Poole > Newcastle. There was also any hourly class 150 Birmingham > Lincoln via Derby, but this was a new innovation in the 1987 book. The start of the Sprinter Revolution.

I remember using the Plymouth to Edinburgh "express" between Bristol TM and Bolton a few times around the turn of the millennium.

It was loco hauled with old-style slam door carriages and had one First class carriage. Which more often than not had failed aircon.

I used it because I could walk to BTM from the office and walk to the in laws from Bolton station. No train change required and 1st was nice and quiet.

 

[anthony263]

Anyone got the timings for the Swansea - Newcastle service when it was run by Virgin, I am sure it departed Swansea around 14:50.

I wonder with electrification and the east-west link if it might be possible to have a regular Swansea - north west england service via Bristol TM.

 

[DarloRich]

what was the cross country route like before the voyagers came in?

fantastic!

 

[142094]

Less frequent services but better coaching stock.

 

[ainsworth74]

fantastic!

I'd rather have the frequencies (and reliability) we have now to be honest rather than 47+Mk2s.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But not very reliable .....one evening the driver reported poor brakes on his 47/8 at New St- no other loco to hand , so said loco uncoupled and sent to Saltley where a tremendous effort had the loco re-blocked and back on the train in about 45 mins !

 

[route:oxford]

Less frequent services but better coaching stock.

It was some of the worst coaching stock left on the network.

I did the journey all too often between Edinburgh & Oxford on formations with failed air conditioning or locked out coaches.

"Free" cold drinks were the norm on board due to the heat and I did six trip to Scotland in a row where I had a full refund due to knackered trains.

 

[Bevan Price]

I'd rather have the frequencies (and reliability) we have now to be honest rather than 47+Mk2s.

But fewer seats per hour on some routes. The Mk2 sets (BSO, 5xSO, First) had more standard class seats than a pair of 4 car 220s.

 

[Mugby]

I can remember a Leeds - Portsmouth service on Sunday evenings in the 1980's which usually had about ten coaches and was always very well loaded.

 

[43074]

Anyone got the timings for the Swansea - Newcastle service when it was run by Virgin, I am sure it departed Swansea around 14:50.

I wonder with electrification and the east-west link if it might be possible to have a regular Swansea - north west england service via Bristol TM.

In 1999, the Newcastle service left Swansea at 15:27 and called:
Neath 15:38
Port Talbot Parkway 15:45
Bridgend 15:57
Cardiff Central 16:17
Newport 16:32
Bristol Temple Meads 17:02
Bristol Parkway 17:17
Cheltenham Spa 17:49
Birmingham N St 18:40 - 18:43
Derby 19:22
Chesterfield 19:44
Sheffield 19:59
Wakefield Westgate 20:30
Leeds 20:47
York 21:14
Darlington 21:42
Durham 22:00
Newcastle 22:19

 

[4SRKT]

I can remember a Leeds - Portsmouth service on Sunday evenings in the 1980's which usually had about ten coaches and was always very well loaded.

There was a daily (M-S) 06:45 York > Portsmouth in the mid-'80s which was booked a peak as far as New Street. In the days of much less frequent ECML services this was a very handy way of getting an extra York > London option by changing at Donny into a service from Leeds.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd rather have the frequencies (and reliability) we have now to be honest rather than 47+Mk2s.

to be honest i would rather have the old trains - more comfortable, more spacious, nicer and a much more pleasant places to be for a long journey.

No one will ever convince me that the Voyager is an improvement

But not very reliable .....one evening the driver reported poor brakes on his 47/8 at New St- no other loco to hand , so said loco uncoupled and sent to Saltley where a tremendous effort had the loco re-blocked and back on the train in about 45 mins !

Top flight fitters!

 

[34D]

Happy memories....

I remember being very excited whenever one of the unrefurbished rakes turned up.

There was a 21:26 Sheffield-Leeds (15:50 from Plymouth) 1E61 that I used to travel on a lot in 2001.

there was also a lunchtime Sheffield-Newcastle (via Don) which I remember going on.

 

[dk1]

Totally aggree that things where more interesting even though far less frequent. What I also remember was the dreadful reliability. This related to Cross-Country and West Coast. It's a different world nowadays whether you like it or not.

 

[Eagle]

to be honest i would rather have the old trains - more comfortable, more spacious, nicer and a much more pleasant places to be for a long journey.

Of course if you're nostalgic a lot of the old stock is still about, albeit not in National Rail service

For instance I saw a rake of Virgin Mk2s pass my house this very evening, on a service from Scarborough to Bristol.

 

[Mugby]

Can anyone remember the numerous reliefs which used to appear at busy times?

Very often producing cl.31 haulage but I remember once being amazed at Derby when a Leeds (or Sheffield) - Bristol relief came in formed of 3 x 3car dmu's tied together!

 

[Eagle]

By the way, it's also worth remembering that at the time of the diagram posted upthread (2001), VXC ran quite a few services with a single 158. Such as the infamous Portsmouth to Blackpool service.

 

[4SRKT]

Can anyone remember the numerous reliefs which used to appear at busy times?

Very often producing cl.31 haulage but I remember once being amazed at Derby when a Leeds (or Sheffield) - Bristol relief came in formed of 3 x 3car dmu's tied together!

14:20 York > Plymouth relief was used to return class 50s from Donny Works to Laira. A VERY popular train.......

 

[Muzer]

Very interesting, thanks. Were the old trains actually significantly slower at getting there? I remember my mum has memories of the Bournemouth to Manchester service (specifically from Basingstoke to Macclesfield) "stopping at every lamppost to let the dogs off for a wee" which doesn't seem to be the case any more than it is now in that diagram - it's all about perception, of course, so she's quite probably misremembering - or it just seemed like it stopped more because of longer dwell times caused by the slam doors?

I still remember when it was replaced by a Voyager, though. They've never quite managed to get rid of that smell of excrement in them IMHO (others can't seem to smell it) - but it was worse at the start.

 

[Eagle]

Were the old trains actually significantly slower at getting there?

Yes, quite considerably. 125 mph Voyagers made a dent in journey times (although somewhat undermined by the frequency of stops on some routes), even where they replaced HSTs (even though they have the same top speed, HSTs have much poorer acceleration and no tilt).

 

[hooky3]

anyone know what were service patterns from EDB - New Street and beyond via the ECML were?

 

[acg5324]

For details on the Brighton and Kent XC services check out my Website www.1S76.com

Includes all timetables, pictures, carriage labels, stock etc and much more.

 

[Muzer]

Yes, quite considerably. 125 mph Voyagers made a dent in journey times (although somewhat undermined by the frequency of stops on some routes), even where they replaced HSTs (even though they have the same top speed, HSTs have much poorer acceleration and no tilt).

That, then, makes more sense now. Thanks!

 

[Aldaniti]

Totally aggree that things where more interesting even though far less frequent. What I also remember was the dreadful reliability. This related to Cross-Country and West Coast. It's a different world nowadays whether you like it or not.

Yes, reliability was dreadful. If Virgin Trains had not tried to save money and had paid to have their stock maintained properly, rather than patched up, during the period leading up to the introduction of Voyagers and Pendolinos, things would have been better.