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Network Rail to examine Uckfield–Lewes proposals

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Chris125

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Quite what the objection to any group proposing improvements on whatever scale is, I'm less clear about.

I'd argue that generating such a disproportionate amount of attention from politicians and the travelling public by giving the impression it's some kind of silver bullet for Brighton Line congestion and delays is not a wise idea, and risks distracting public and political attention from more realistic schemes using and improving what we already have.

Chris
 
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RobShipway

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One thing that I think people are neglecting to see I believe is the growth of people living in the Lewes to Uckfield area, since the closure of the line. I doubt many if these people work locally and are either travelling by car to Lewes or Uckfield to then travel into London or to other destinations.

You also have I believe people that live around the Uckfield area, but work in Brighton who at the moment travel by road as there is no easy way for them to travel into Brighton by rail.

I agree with points being made, that if reinstated the Brighton, Lewes & Uckfiled routing should not just be about relieving the BML in the peaks, it should also be about reinstating a rail service for the growing amount of people living in the area and a line that can also reduce any lorry movements within these areas so that it also has to be able to take some freight as well in my view.

But I would also argue, that there are other areas within East Sussex that should be looked into being provided a railway service as well. One such area is the area of Peacehaven/Telscombe Cliffs where I grew up and I know has expanded greatly over the years. In the peak travelling hours the A259 coast road is generally full of queuing traffic from the lights at Rottingdean, all the way back into Peacehaven and many more houses are still being built I believe at a lot higher rate, than you see within the Lewes - Uckfield area. Yes, there has been schemes, like adding in a bus lane so buses can travel easier through the traffic which helps but I think more needs to be done on alleviating the traffic within many areas in East Sussex.

It has long be said that Peacehaven should have a railway station at the back of it where most of the new houses, flats etc built in the last 30 years reside
 

yorksrob

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I'd argue that generating such a disproportionate amount of attention from politicians and the travelling public by giving the impression it's some kind of silver bullet for Brighton Line congestion and delays is not a wise idea, and risks distracting public and political attention from more realistic schemes using and improving what we already have.

Chris

Unfortunately it seems unlikely that any major railway project will get off the ground without a large grounswell of political support.

What worries me is when people use the BML2 concept to bolster their own prejudice against any sort of reopening proposal .
 

Hove Heretic

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I'd argue that generating such a disproportionate amount of attention from politicians and the travelling public by giving the impression it's some kind of silver bullet for Brighton Line congestion and delays is not a wise idea, and risks distracting public and political attention from more realistic schemes using and improving what we already have.

Chris

I've previously made the point that I don't see any one scheme as a universal panacea, and neither Railfuture's nor BML2 could reasonably claim to be such. Of course I'm aware that RF have listed the Lewes Uckfield section amongst lines which should re-open for as long as the the website has been there, but as an active scheme, the current proposal has only seriously been under consideration for a comparatively short time. I'm certainly not about to apologise for WLC actively keeping up pressure on the issue and keeping the matter in the public eye. Don't forget that BML2, like RF, has backers with well established credentials in public transport.

Is the FULL BML2 essential to re-instatement of theose missing miles? As far as a purely local initiative goes, clearly not, so from the narrow viewpoint your critisism does have certain merit.

Is the initial phase of RF's incremental re-opening the sum total of the scheme? Only if a purely local line supporting 2tph and of very limited use as an integral part of the network is the final aim. If I were to single out a critisism of support for the RF scheme, it's that it misses the point that as well as a local line, the Wealden route needs to be part of the wider network, and an appreciation of this seems absent to judge by some comments.

Do both schemes address any of the wider issues facing the network in the region? By any measure, BML2 has wider scope in this regard. Even where the RF scheme could reasonably be expected to meet some demand, such as Tun Wells relief and re-instated Brighton-Lewes-Tun Wells services, thus far comments from BML2 opponents seem to indicate these are of no real priority and conveniently dismissed.

There is demonstrably strong tendency to rubbish BML2 by presenting it as just a second best route for Brighton passengers to existing termini. The point has already been made that this isn't the main thrust of the scheme. Ignoring this isn't the most convincing means of advancing the argument.

The London phase of the BML2 can't simply be discounted, neither can the support for it from those (don't worry, I don't mean me!) with detailed knowledge of the industry. There seems to be a wilful desire by some to discount alternate routes possible with BML2 and a complete failure to see past current service patterns as the be-all and end-all, set in stone for all eternity. Not all commuter journeys end at Victoria or London Bridge, and when a link to Docklands gets built, it won't be the sole preserve of trains from the Wealden route or even the Brighton line. The evolution of traffic flows can't be accurately predicted for the link, but certainly some services from other points e.g Portsmouth-Horsham or Norwich, will offer direct Dockland service, with OHLE both examples could well be by through train.

The issue of how the rail network meets the needs of the air travel industry is a key question. The fact that Railfuture's proposal doesn't encompass this matter doesn't detract one iota from it's importance. This IS something addressed by BML2 for two airports (potentially four, five if speculation on Lydd becomes reality) including the second busiest in the UK - Gatwick, but once again ignored by opponents.

So medium term infrastructure expenditure is needed for BML2 to work. To develop beyond the basic 2tph, so does the Railfuture scheme. There's general agreement that the 2008 study was deeply flawed (though it did reach the conclusion wanted by the DfT at the time), but to justify further investment in the Wealden route, it will be necessary to go beyond the scope of the initial test question. I know this is recognised within Railfuture, as I've discussed it with RF supporters, and opponents of BML2 would be well advised to keep the longer term aims of their own preferred scheme in mind. The future may be closer than you think, and the brickbats you aim at 'the other scheme' might just boomerang a bit further down the line.

I'm positive about the Railfuture scheme (Rob please read my earlier comments - I'm emphatically NOT opposing re-opening), as far as it goes, but when sensible discussion of clearly evident issues is subsumed in a welter of attacks demonstating a short sighted appreciation of the RF scheme as much as the wider possibilities of BML2 it's difficult to avoid the conclusion some just enjoy a good old fashioned tribal blood letting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One thing that I think people are neglecting to see I believe is the growth of people living in the Lewes to Uckfield area, since the closure of the line. I doubt many if these people work locally and are either travelling by car to Lewes or Uckfield to then travel into London or to other destinations.

You also have I believe people that live around the Uckfield area, but work in Brighton who at the moment travel by road as there is no easy way for them to travel into Brighton by rail.

I agree with points being made, that if reinstated the Brighton, Lewes & Uckfiled routing should not just be about relieving the BML in the peaks, it should also be about reinstating a rail service for the growing amount of people living in the area and a line that can also reduce any lorry movements within these areas so that it also has to be able to take some freight as well in my view.

But I would also argue, that there are other areas within East Sussex that should be looked into being provided a railway service as well. One such area is the area of Peacehaven/Telscombe Cliffs where I grew up and I know has expanded greatly over the years. In the peak travelling hours the A259 coast road is generally full of queuing traffic from the lights at Rottingdean, all the way back into Peacehaven and many more houses are still being built I believe at a lot higher rate, than you see within the Lewes - Uckfield area. Yes, there has been schemes, like adding in a bus lane so buses can travel easier through the traffic which helps but I think more needs to be done on alleviating the traffic within many areas in East Sussex.

It has long be said that Peacehaven should have a railway station at the back of it where most of the new houses, flats etc built in the last 30 years reside

Some very valid observations here. Once we've cleared the blood away and changed the sawdust when the Wealden line re-opens, and future direction becomes clearer, the clifftop communities certainly warrant atttention. You'd have to add Telscombe Rottingdean and Whitehawk to the list though!
 

RobShipway

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Unfortunately it seems unlikely that any major railway project will get off the ground without a large grounswell of political support.

What worries me is when people use the BML2 concept to bolster their own prejudice against any sort of reopening proposal .

Can I suggest one Rob to another that you read my post above and tell me that my comments certainly warrant that a line gets put in between Lewes - Uckfield, but also consideration be given that there is a line from that route or the Lewes - Brighton line, that then covers the coastal towns between Brighton and Newhaven which in the last 20 - 30 years have seen the largest growth of population within East Sussex, yet do not have any railway stations.......

Martins Heron in Berkshire where I now live, has a station thanks to Tesco insisting that one be created so that its staff can travel to their Store, which is by the side of the Reading - Waterloo line. However, Martins Heron/The Warren area is a third of the size of Peacehaven/Telscombe Cliffs is in size, yet the later has no railway station and to travel on the train you either have to travel the 3 miles to Newhaven town station or the 7.5 miles to Brighton Station.

I believe that housing growth since the closure of the Lewes - Uckfiled route in the 1960's has also grown to similar amounts within the Lewes to Uckfieled area as it has in Peacehaven. So I think it is better for the environment if people put thought into these requests now, so that we can get more cars off the road as soon as possible to make it easier for people to travel.
 

tbtc

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Quite what the objection to any group proposing improvements on whatever scale is, I'm less clear about

Spend a few minutes on this forum and you'll see plenty of unrealistic proposals to spend millions of pounds to upgrade lines...

...investment sounds great, but there's usually an opportunity cost to it. For the millions (tens of millions? hundreds of millions?) required to build a BML2 scheme from the south coast to Stratford (and beyond?), I think that you could spend them better elsewhere.

Especially given the huge amount of money being spent on the twelve coach Thameslink scheme on the actual "BML" (the one that serves Brighton, Gatwick, East Croydon and central London).

If some find the idea of a successful and expanding rail network a tough concept to accept, that's understandable

Yes, thanks for the patronising comment. Successful and expanding, great. But there are other/ better ways to spend the money.
 

asylumxl

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Perhaps it'd be better to use the money to invest in the local area and give incentives for more businesses to set up there. Then less people would need to commute...
 

Kettledrum

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Spend a few minutes on this forum and you'll see plenty of unrealistic proposals to spend millions of pounds to upgrade lines...

...investment sounds great, but there's usually an opportunity cost to it. For the millions (tens of millions? hundreds of millions?) required to build a BML2 scheme from the south coast to Stratford (and beyond?), I think that you could spend them better elsewhere.

Especially given the huge amount of money being spent on the twelve coach Thameslink scheme on the actual "BML" (the one that serves Brighton, Gatwick, East Croydon and central London).


......Successful and expanding, great. But there are other/ better ways to spend the money.

This is a difficult one to comment on because we don't really know what the proposals are yet. Whilst there are cases for opening or re-opening numerous closed lines across the country, there may be much greater demand for extra capacity here than in many other places.

If there is evidence that the communities in this part of Sussex can fill 8-12 car trains crammed with commuters into central London and back again, that's a lot of additional income for the rail industry which other proposals would struggle to attract.

I don't think the people of that part of Sussex would really agree that there are other or better ways to spend the money.
 

ushawk

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Perhaps it'd be better to use the money to invest in the local area and give incentives for more businesses to set up there. Then less people would need to commute...

Agree with this, I'd also fund it so that the Brighton and Hove number 28 buses that terminate at Lewes during the day, to be extended via Ringmer to Uckfield, maybe also increase the size of the Lewes Plusbus area to include Uckfield as well.

Maybe then run the 29 bus from Brighton - Tunbridge Wells express from Uckfield, much like the peak time 29X buses that already run.
 

TheWalrus

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Quite what the objection to any group proposing improvements on whatever scale is, I'm less clear about

Spend a few minutes on this forum and you'll see plenty of unrealistic proposals to spend millions of pounds to upgrade lines...

...investment sounds great, but there's usually an opportunity cost to it. For the millions (tens of millions? hundreds of millions?) required to build a BML2 scheme from the south coast to Stratford (and beyond?), I think that you could spend them better elsewhere.

Especially given the huge amount of money being spent on the twelve coach Thameslink scheme on the actual "BML" (the one that serves Brighton, Gatwick, East Croydon and central London).

If some find the idea of a successful and expanding rail network a tough concept to accept, that's understandable

Yes, thanks for the patronising comment. Successful and expanding, great. But there are other/ better ways to spend the money.

LOL true. The way I look at investment projects is yes, big projects like Thameslink, IEP etc are the best use of money. However there are many smaller routes which could do with a bit of investment which would enable them to become sustainable. This would allow them to turn more profit, returning greater premiums to the government, opposed to running at a loss and having to pay millions of pounds in subsidies per year.
 

yorksrob

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Can I suggest one Rob to another that you read my post above and tell me that my comments certainly warrant that a line gets put in between Lewes - Uckfield, but also consideration be given that there is a line from that route or the

It does indeed....but I didn't think my earlier post suggested that you had said otherwise :?
 
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tbtc

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If there is evidence that the communities in this part of Sussex can fill 8-12 car trains crammed with commuters into central London and back again, that's a lot of additional income for the rail industry which other proposals would struggle to attract

I'm in favour of the plan to re-open the line to Lewes (electrified, of course) - I just can't buy into the BML2 idea. If you can fill eight/twelve coach trains with a simple re-opening then it should go ahead (albeit the lower fares on the Uckfield line may brought up in line with the "BML" stations).

I don't think the people of that part of Sussex would really agree that there are other or better ways to spend the money

That's the problem with a national forum like this - most people only really care about their neck of the woods. Understandable, of course, but makes it hard to argue whether someone's local branchline hundreds of miles from LOndon is more important than Crossail (or whether Pacer replacement is more important than Class 313 replacement).

People of Sussex won't see much benefit from EGIP/ Ordsall Chord/ Gowerton redoubling, but everyone needs to appreciate that there's an opportunity cost to each scheme (nationally).
 

Hove Heretic

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Agree with this, I'd also fund it so that the Brighton and Hove number 28 buses that terminate at Lewes during the day, to be extended via Ringmer to Uckfield, maybe also increase the size of the Lewes Plusbus area to include Uckfield as well.

Maybe then run the 29 bus from Brighton - Tunbridge Wells express from Uckfield, much like the peak time 29X buses that already run.

Even with clear roads, the Brighton-Lewes run by bus will take longer than the whole Brighton-Tun Wells would by train. For a large part of the day, certainly when most need to travel, the roads are very congested. The A270 out of Brighton is dreadful (and matters aren't made better by certain recent B&HCC 'improvements'), Lewes town centre (where eastbound buses complete two circuits of the one-way before clearing the town) gets very constipated as do Uckfield and Crowborough in both directions. The final couple of miles into Tun Wells can be pretty awful too, as can getting out during the rush. If getting the Wealden route back isn't at least in part about relieving road congestion, what is the rationale?
 

TheWalrus

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I would have thought reopening Uckfield-Lewes would overall be more beneficial than Gowerton redoubling? (I live nowhere near either project so no bias from here!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Agree with this, I'd also fund it so that the Brighton and Hove number 28 buses that terminate at Lewes during the day, to be extended via Ringmer to Uckfield, maybe also increase the size of the Lewes Plusbus area to include Uckfield as well.

Maybe then run the 29 bus from Brighton - Tunbridge Wells express from Uckfield, much like the peak time 29X buses that already run.

Let's be honest a bus route is no compensation for a rail route! Having good rail links cause people to move to that area, increase the value of their properties and attract customers who would otherwise drive and businesses. Even a good bus route won't bring nearly as many benefits to an area as a good rail link, especially one with direct links to London.
 

tbtc

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I would have thought reopening Uckfield-Lewes would overall be more beneficial than Gowerton redoubling? (I live nowhere near either project so no bias from here!)

I'm just answering Kettledrum 's point that "the people of that part of Sussex" would want money spent in that part of Sussex. Just making the point that everyone wants money spent in their back yard - the Lewes line may be more important nationally, but try explaining that to someone from Llanelli.
 

Hove Heretic

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There are people out there in a far better position to decide where (in a minimum of 30 years time) a relief tunnel will need to be built, be it to the Docklands or to Central London.

My comment about campaign / pressure groups suggesting improvements was in response to the above from OxtedL. Current developments on the Wealden route are in no small measure a result of pressure from both RF & WLC supporters, without which, the formation at Uckfield would by now be in the process of being severed by ESCC, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

For some on the forum, WLC has gone beyond what they consider a reasonable remit. That's their perogative, though not a view I share. BML2 grew out of the case made by the DfT concerning capacity in the London area to reinforce their long standing 'do nothing' policy. The problem was supposedly too large, too intractable. Looking at this claim was entirely reasonable, as was looking at wider issues and seeing how many could be overcome. The proposal arrived at is one logical response to the situation. I don't see any other current proposal to access Docklands by main line. Comment elsewhere suggests DLR/Jubilee line suffice. Even with capacity enhancements, both are increasingly busy, and both are inner urban mass transit rather than main line operations. Time taken commuting on the TfL system and the thousands of journeys involved can be cut drastically with a Docklands link. That's to everybody's benefit. Less congestion in the central underground area, many paths (from many routes) into the traditional termini freed up, and no need for many passengers travelling between airports mentioned in earlier posts to try and navigate the Underground (complete with luggage) or take coaches round the M25 or hugely expensive taxi journeys.

I reiterate, traditional termini aren't the principal aim of BML2, some workings starting at points from Portsmouth to Dover could be routed via Docklands. Both Hayward's Heath and Uckfield routes gain, and there's passenger choice. When thinking about a diversionary Brighton route, keep in mind that it's just as likely that Uckfield or Crowborough commuters will benefit from there being an alternative, with both at need accessible from the south in the event of any incident further up the line. With improvements to Croydon, there will probably another couple of paths per hour for Uckfield services. Fully redoubled, with the Docklands link, the Wealden route has far more scope to improve. OK, it's not ever going to be HS3, but it can be far more than just a local service with a maximum 2tph capacity.

I see nothing wrong with the incremental start point, but I'm getting the definite impression that some aren't interested in looking past the initial stage. The RF scheme doesn't suggest development stops there, but to judge by some posts, it might as well.
 

HSTEd

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If you did some reconstruction work at Ashford International and then electrified the Marshlink, couldn't you run trains from Brighton via Hastings and HS1 to St Pancras, stopping at Stratford International which would then allow people to reach the Docklands via a short journey on the DLR?.

Would probably take speed enhancements on the Marshlink to make that viable in travel time terms though.
 

TheWalrus

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I would have thought reopening Uckfield-Lewes would overall be more beneficial than Gowerton redoubling? (I live nowhere near either project so no bias from here!)

I'm just answering Kettledrum 's point that "the people of that part of Sussex" would want money spent in that part of Sussex. Just making the point that everyone wants money spent in their back yard - the Lewes line may be more important nationally, but try explaining that to someone from Llanelli.
yeah I understand your point I'm saying the Gowerton redoubling is taking place but Uckfield-Lewes isn't and would be more beneficial to a wider group of people. Having said that I see any infrastructure investment as a good thing.
 

Chrisgr31

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Let's be honest a bus route is no compensation for a rail route! Having good rail links cause people to move to that area, increase the value of their properties and attract customers who would otherwise drive and businesses. Even a good bus route won't bring nearly as many benefits to an area as a good rail link, especially one with direct links to London.

The 29 bus route is remarkably good, takes a bit longer than by car but costs less than the price of parking in Brighton, let alone the cost of fuel, and it invariably runs on time irrespective of the traffic issues mentioned by someone.

Interesting door to door to Oxted takes the same time by car or by train.
 

Hove Heretic

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The 29 bus route is remarkably good, takes a bit longer than by car but costs less than the price of parking in Brighton, let alone the cost of fuel, and it invariably runs on time irrespective of the traffic issues mentioned by someone.

Interesting door to door to Oxted takes the same time by car or by train.

The reason the 29 route can claim reasonable timekeeping is due to careful (and realistic) timetabling to take account of the traffic conditions. I mentioned increased journey times due to congestion, not bad timekeeping.

The bus departing Brighton (Churchill Sq) at 06:37, allows 1min recovery time at Lewes, departing 07:03, 2mins at Uckfield, departing 07:28 arriving Tun Wells at 08:16 Total journey time 1h49 mins.
Compare with the 07:57 departure. 4mins recovery time at Lewes, departing 08:43, 10mins at Uckfield, departing 09:14 arriving Tun Wells 10:00 Total journey time 2h03.
Through the day, total journey time is 1h45 for the xx:15 departure from Brighton, 1h49 for the xx:45.
Similar timetabling applies in the opposite direction. As previously mentioned, the same journey by rail would be 37mins. i.e 1h12mins faster than the best morning departure 1h26mins faster than the rush hour trip.

I wouldn't dispute the point about parking charges in Brighton.
 
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Bedpan

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I don't think that you could call 9 mins from Brighton - Lewes to be careful and realistic timetabling - my satnav gives a time of 19 mins for the journey by car. I take the point about extending the journey times to take account of rush hour traffic though.
 

Hove Heretic

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I don't think that you could call 9 mins from Brighton - Lewes to be careful and realistic timetabling - my satnav gives a time of 19 mins for the journey by car. I take the point about extending the journey times to take account of rush hour traffic though.

Note to self - put your ruddy glasses on man. Cheers for the observation BP - departure time now corrected, wrong damned column in TT. 9mins will get that bus to Lewes Rd Garage. Last time I did the inbound (westwards) run, the Seagulls home game had just finished, and it took quite a bit longer from Falmer to Old Steine (the last bit to Churchill Sq is theoretically car free).

29 timetable to be found at www.buses.co.uk
 
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steamybrian

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. As previously mentioned, the same journey by rail would be 37mins. i.e 1h12mins faster than the best morning departure 1h26mins faster than the rush hour trip.

......

I have just consulted my copy of the 1967 BR working timetable for the Uckfield line which shows the distance Brighton to Birchden Jn 28 miles 11 chains and Birchden Jn to Tunbridge Wells Central as 5 miles 79 chains making a total distance Brighton to Tunbridge Wells Central of 34 miles 10 chains. Taking into account the speed restrictions it would make the rail journey of 37 minutes unrealistic. An all stations (exclude Moulescoomb which was not opened) train Brighton to Eridge took approx. 50 minutes and Eridge to Tunbridge Wells Central approx. 15 minutes. Even with modern rolling stock or improvements to line speed I cannot see the schedule being reduced to much under one hour unless you are running non-stop Brighton-TWC.
Maybe you have heard too much brainwashing from Brian Hart and his cronies from the Wealden Line Campaign Group.
I fully support Uckfield- Lewes reopening and it has a chance of reconstruction if the support continues .............. but not his BML2 scheme which has no-hope.:roll:
 
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Hove Heretic

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I have just consulted my copy of the 1967 BR working timetable for the Uckfield line which shows the distance Brighton to Birchden Jn 28 miles 11 chains and Birchden Jn to Tunbridge Wells Central as 5 miles 79 chains making a total distance Brighton to Tunbridge Wells Central of 34 miles 10 chains. Taking into account the speed restrictions it would make the rail journey of 37 minutes unrealistic. An all stations train Brighton to Eridge took approx. 50 minutes and Eridge to Tunbridge Wells Central approx. 15 minutes. Even with modern rolling stock or improvements to line speed I cannot see the schedule being much under one hour unless you are running non-stop Brighton-TWC.
Maybe you have heard too much brainwashing from Brian Hart and his cronies from the Wealden Line Campaign Group.
I fully support Uckfield- Lewes reopening and it has a chance of reconstruction if the support continues .............. but not his BML2 scheme which has no-hope.:roll:

The 37mins figure is the calculation via Ashcombe Tunnel, from the performance figures for current stock. Given that's the nature of the BML2 proposal, thats hardly unreasonable. The 1967 'all stations' times you quote still show around 40mins improvement over todays bus schedule, which isn't insignificant. I don't remember the L-U line in operation, but I did use the Eridge -Tun Wells service (used to climb at Bowles and High Rocks), and the 'Tadpoles' didn't exactly bust a gut on this section, so with more modern kit, I can't see 10min saving for an all stations run (taking the journey well below the hour) being unrealistic.

I've also been stuck in Cuilfail tunnel or on Pheonix Causeway or Lewes Road enough times to know how bad traffic frequently gets. The last journey I made (by 29 bus) to Uckfield was delayed by an RTA on the A26 near Clay Hill which resulted in tail backs looking to be about a mile. After being stationary for 15 mins, this then took about a further 10mins to get past, and my bus was quite close to the location when the prang happened. In common with most of the A26, the road here is single carriageway, and any spur of the minute diversions require local knowledge of the small country lanes. Ok with a car, less so with a lorry.

I've no intention of engaging in insults or ultimately counter productive character assassinations, and frankly, I'm disappointed to see it. Personalised vitriol and slanging matches one thing this forum can certainly do without, so can we please confine ourselves to the issues?

Can L-U re-open without BML2 ? Of course. I'm very heartened by any positive move to get the line open, but what is it that will be re-opened? Railfuture mention future possibilities of electrification, redoubling and re-instating Tun Wells services. There seem to be mixed messages about 3rd rail. The long term conclusion sems clear enough, but whether energising any more mileage on 750vdc would be permitted/justifyable is rather less clear. I suspect the answer, even for an infill, would be 'no'. Railfuture might as well not have mentioned either this, or re-doubling or the Tun Wells line for all the impact both possibilities seem to have made on some, to judge by comments posted. Link below to the Railfuture page detailing planned progression of the incremenal scheme.

http://www.railfuture.org.uk/Solution+for+Uckfield-Lewes

Note point 3 of the 'Phased Scheme' section regarding the Spa Valley Railway. I postulated a similar idea regarding commuter srvices on the Swanage line, suggesting differential speed limits for modern commercial stock, but it appears that the status of a heritage line is predicated as much on the 25mph speed limit (for public service trains) as any other factor.

If there's no visible appetite from several members of the forum to look past the initial phase of RF's incremental scheme, what future then for the Wealden route? The determination I've observed on this forum to prevent any useful development of the route (how else can I view it?) denies it much useful role in the regional network, and the apposite word here is 'network', yet the attitude seems to be to regard the line as a stand alone. So, wait for NR to carry out some improvements at East Croydon and then maybe look at a 'dynamic loop' to permit a couple of additional semi-fasts in the rush hour? Extend one of the two trains per hour to Seaford? An underutilised line in a region short on capacity or flexibility isn't the best use of resources by any stretch of the imagination.

Can BML2 happen without L-U? Of course not, though it would impact very positively on the usefullness of the Wealden route and the wider network.

A claim was made in a previous post that it was BML2 'add ons' which led to the downfall of the last look at re-opening. From 'steamybrian' on 15th May "The thought of BML2 , reopening the Eridge-Tunbridge Wells Line and other "add-ons" has previously made the scheme sink". In 2008, the last detailed look at the issue, BML2 wasn't even on the table. The downfall of that opportunity was the 'poor' cost-benefit ratio (given as 0.7). Hardly surprising when the only potential traffic counted was what existed already, plus Lewes only. I agree that even those figures included were downplayed, and growth was downplayed - as stated by Norman Baker in justifying the revised cost-benefit figure (2.08). There's detail of the revised estimate here (don't worry, it's nothing to do with BML2, it's a link on from the Railfuture site):

http://chrisbowers.standsfor.me.uk/Latest_News/Articles/example2.xalter

Does BML2 prevent or obstruct the Railfturue L-U re-opening proposal in any way? Absolutely not. There's a valid debate to be had over the merits of both to be had here and elsewhere. The detailed investigations will be undertaken by Network Rail, and what eventually happens will be as a result of that study.
 

steamybrian

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The 37mins figure is the calculation via Ashcombe Tunnel, from the performance figures for current stock. Given that's the nature of the BML2 proposal, thats hardly unreasonable. The 1967 'all stations' times you quote still show around 40mins improvement over todays bus schedule, which isn't insignificant. I don't remember the L-U line in operation, but I did use the Eridge -Tun Wells service (used to climb at Bowles and High Rocks), and the 'Tadpoles' didn't exactly bust a gut on this section, so with more modern kit, I can't see 10min saving for an all stations run (taking the journey well below the hour) being unrealistic.

.

I know the area very well. I maybe one of the few readers who travelled not only the Eridge -TW line (closed 1985) but the Uckfield-Lewes line as well before it closed in 1969, I have driven along the A26 as well as using no. 29 bus .
The train service was worked by "Thumpers" and not "Tadpole" units.
The Eridge-Tunbridge Wells line had a permanent speed restriction throughout between TW West and Central because of the sharp curves and token exchanges at TW.West and Grove Jn. There was also a 20mph permanent speed restriction at Birchden Jn due to track curvature. Add on a stop at Groombridge so there is little scope for reducing schedules. Since the Turbostar class 171 units were introduced on the Uckfield I wonder how much faster the timetable was accelerated after the "Thumpers" were withdrawn..?
Construction of new Ashcombe Tunnels and any other routing far from the original 1858 will add millions of pounds and are a good example of "the add ons" too which I was referring to. I know the route will not face Brighton but if the scheme is to get off the drawing board then make it viable.
I am sorry if I said derogatory remarks in my previous post but it really, really upsets me (<() to see this BML2 scheme being circulated when my former colleagues within the railway industry also give it no hope but they would like to see Uckfield-Lewes reopened.
 

JamesRowden

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Here is a very interesting post on the topic from an old thread:

MarkyT said:
I agree with the main focus being on a regional connection. Much traffic growth in the South East has been on flows between towns outside London, where social trends of car ownership and use and road traffic congestion are driving significant modal shift, but longer distance buses are too slow especially in peak times when traffic is at its most viscous.

Approaching Lewes from the East is particularly difficult as the original route has been built over in the town centre, and the valley is completely developed, leaving no obvious clear path. An alternative would be to route via the east of Cliffe Hill, branching from the Eastbourne line at Glynde, offering the possibility of a station serving Ringmer. This would be around 8km of new construction however, and add around 6km distance to the route in exchange for avoiding reversal.

See following map for illustration:
yellow = new construction, orange = reinstated

http://www.townend.me/files/glynde-barcombe.jpg

This provides a relatively cheap way to restore the link with the possibility of having a chord to allow direct services from Uckfield to Eastbourne also.
 

The Ham

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Here is a very interesting post on the topic from an old thread:



This provides a relatively cheap way to restore the link with the possibility of having a chord to allow direct services from Uckfield to Eastbourne also.

Following on from that The BBC's local news for the south was saying last week that stations on lines with no direct link to London had been seeing growth in passenger numbers of double the national average, as people started to favour (due to cost, speed, etc) the train for other journeys other than to London (in the cases they were looking at it was into Salisbury and Southampton), even though it was on a service which only ran once per hour.
 

Hove Heretic

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Personally, I'd be more than happy if any one of the six options to directly access the Coastway to Brighton apparently identified, but not yet made public, by Railfuture could obviate the need to tunnel under the downs - with the proviso that Lewes station could be adapted to adequately serve through services on the re-opened route, even at the cost of the cost of the proposed high speed line. If psr's round junctions could be raised - even by 5-10mph, so much the better. I suspect that at least one of these options involves ploughing through (mostly) life-expired commercial premises, if I'm reading slightly cryptic Railfuture comments about Lewes town centre correctly. For all any of us outside RF's inner circle knows, Ashcombe may even count as one of those six. Any decision however will come down to how the overall business case is seen by Network Rail, councils and other stakeholders.

n.b. I don't actually own a tbm, so don't panic!

I do feel the Brighton - Tun Wells issue is too important to be ignored. With or without BML2, it adds greatly to the usefulness of the L-U link. As you know the roads in the area, you'll know I don't exaggerate how snarled up they get at Brighton, Lewes (through or round), Little Horsted (the stretch of A26 shared with the A22), Crowborough and into Tun Wells, and that's just pressure of traffic. Add a shunt, or an unscheduled lorry unloading at any critical point..... need I say more?

Although outside the immediate scope of the RF scheme (and getting the basic L-U up and running isn't really affected by it anyway), my support for BML2 is mainly predicated on (a) some relief of congestion on the Brighton line south of Three Bridges, resulting - for starters - from the ability from day one to route some Eastbourne and Seaford services via the Wealden route rather than via Keymer Jnc. and (b) the Docklands link, which will happen eventually anyway. (c) meeting the requirements of the airline industry for better links. If the Docklands link gets built, and 3rd rail does get binned, starting OHLE on the Wealden route would certainly mitigate the major chaos both Brighton and Hastings routes would suffer for months on end. If dc does get the chop, it could still be an issue for the line without BML2.

OxtedL commented on the all too-typical 30 year gestation for major schemes of this nature. Historically, there's good ground for this view, but 20 of those years are invariably taken up with navel-gazing, as was the case with Crossrail (wasn't that even longer?) or HS1. Thameslink happened quite a bit faster, and doubts cast over it's usefulness before it was approved were rapidly dispelled by results once in operation. Note that although no-one either here, at WLC or Railfuture has mentioned the 'F' word, one of the supporters of the Docklands link is also a head honcho at RFS. Make of that what you will!

Thumper or Tadpole (and you're correct of course), both were tatty and well past their sell by date when finally withdrawn, and the Turbostars certainly do outperform them in acceleration terms. Their arrival unquestionably coincides with the fortunes of the line from Uckfield picking up, which usage figures confirm (see my earlier post). I doubt anyone, gricers aside, really mourns the passing of the first generation demu's. The ride was fairly indifferent (tactful) when I last travelled to High Rocks (I think my brother and I plus three friends were the only passengers for the halt - It was visible from the rocks, and devoid of passengers each time I glanced across with the growl of an approaching train). It's actually amazing the line lingered for 16 years after the closure of L-U.

In the event of the route re-opening, you're right to identify issues at Gove Jnc., and certainly this will have to be doubled to make the link useful, though a surprising number of workings operated over the single track at the height of its importance. It seems to me that any improvements beyond this would be unjustifiably costly given the short journey from TWC to TWW. Whether space exists to ease curvature, or whether this would even actually be an issue, is another one for NR.

My view is that the limited Railfuture initial stage will work, but I do seriously question whether the re-opened route could perform well enough to justify the investment which they identify as necessary to develop beyond a 2tph purely local line. Mr Baker's views aside, I regard the direct Brighton link as essential for both Tun Wells and emergency relief traffic. RF indicate that's possibly - great. The second obviously requires electrification and at minimum, the dynamic loops RF envisages, though full double track has to be preferable in any event. I don't just want to see the line re-open, I want to see it prosper as a fully functioning part of the network. Leave concerns about BML2 aside, it's a separate proposal which will stand or fall on the merits of it's own business case. I believe it has merit, you don't... I think we've established that pretty well. I imagine we'll cross swords right up to the GRIP5 stage of any NR proposal - bit pointless after that, yes? Should be an interesting discussion, and I look forward to it. - Cheers for now! H
 
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I'm interested in the engineering challenges for reinstatement of the line through Uckfield. Does the Bellbrook Industrial Estate encroach onto the former trackbed? Does the A22 bypass cross the line on the level at present?

Presumably there would be considerable opposition in Uckfield to reopening the High Street level crossing. Is there any possibility of raising the trackbed up to take the line over both the B2102 and the A22? Would an Uckfield Parkway to the west of the bypass be a potential starting point for a reinstatement, to get the cash flowing (similar to Aylesbury Vale Parkway)? (Although Aylesbury is about five times the size of Uckfield.)
 

OxtedL

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Personally, I'd be more than happy if any one of the six options to directly access the Coastway to Brighton apparently identified, but not yet made public, by Railfuture could obviate the need to tunnel under the downs... <snip>
You place an odd level of faith in Railfuture as a body. (You may notice a theme developing in my posts.) They are a pressure group. Any scheme they come up with will be wildly different to any final scheme churned out by the rail industry, even if the scope is the same - which it won't be, because it's a pressure group and thus far more aspirational than practical, across the board. It's great to support their ideas, yes, but the fact that they are one of the very few sources of ideas on this subject should speak volumes.

London has far bigger priorities than a Docklands tunnel e.g. Crossrail 2. There might well be a Crossrail 3 before Docklands or an equivalent is even high enough up the queue to be considered - which it may never be, as it may turn out demand is not strong enough on the proposed corridor when compared to another, perhaps to Victoria.

I think I've said the same thing enough times now.
 
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