ATW May 2013 Timetable

[Rhydgaled]

As for the three 67s & DVTs you mention, I was under the impression, one of each was now with Chiltern, just leaving a spare set for "Gerald"

Really? ATW's DVTs don't have the generator or the door controls for power door sets do they?

If the North Wales main line is ever to be electrified, that is the critical document for getting it done.

What about the marches? If the north Wales main line is to be electrified without the marches, then surely the service pattern needs to change with services northbound from Wrexham terminating at Chester and trains from Llandudno/Holyhead running through to Manchester/Crewe. I would argue that is probably a more sensible arangment anyway and should be implemented wires or no wires.

There should be new franchises in place for WC, GW and Northern/TP (but not XC). West Midlands should just have been awarded in 2017.
Electrification will be in full swing on the SWML and on the Valleys network.
IEPs will be starting to operate, and an EMU fleet will be at least earmarked for Wales if not actually running.

With the ATW franchise not ending until 2018, and the electrification not scheduled for completion until then, it is doutful that the powers-that-be will go to the trobble of getting ATW to start using EMUs for the limited sections of route which will be wired before their franchise expires. EMUs on the first day of the new franchise perhaps?

There won't be any more DMUs on W&B books. Maybe the Valleys fleet will be recycled after 2019 (not Pacers ).

Oh dear. In my opinion, once the valleys are wired, ATW's current fleet makeup will be grossly mis-matched to what is required of it. I think the fleet needs to be very different, something like this:

• Class 156/155 units (or lots more 153s) for HOWL, Conwy Valley and Pembrokeshire - Swansea services
• Class 158 units for Cambrian - Birmingham, Birmingham - Chester and Pembrokeshire - Cardiff/Portsmouth services
• Class 175s, accompanied by LHCS, for Cardiff - Chester and Swansea/Cardiff - Manchester services, and the north Wales coast to Crewe/Manchester if not wired
• A much reduced class 150 fleet working stoppers Llandudno - Bangor/Holyhead, Crewe-Shrewsbury (if not made part of HOWL service), Wrexham-Bidston (if not electrified), Cardiff-Hereford and perhaps Cardiff-Cheltenham (really that should have been wired, or have some 172s for the job)

A handful of Pacers could be retained to run trial new services, for example Ammanford Central/Glanamman/Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen to Swansea, hopefully to be replaced (perhaps by tram-trains in this case) when/if the service proves itself.

There will have to be a solution to running 175s/158s under the wires between Newport and Swansea which might release some for other work (but only if there is a Bristol-Swansea EMU service).

Personally, I think the current Carmarthen/Pembs hourly through service to Manchester should be replaced by seperate services to Swansea only and through services to Cardiff via the Swansea District Line. The Manchester service, prefrablly, would become a Gerald-style train and terminate at Swansea (or Cardiff, if there wouldn't be enough paths for 5 trains per hour (Swansea-PAD (electric), Carmarthen/Pembs-Cardiff (158), Swansea-MAN (LHCS), Swansea-Cardiff (EMU) and Swansea-Bristol (EMU)) between Briton Ferry and Cardiff) rather than going further west.

If you were hoping for money for loco-hauled services I fear you may be disappointed.

If you like you can replace the LHCS I suggest above with more 158s, to run 4-car Manchester services. I just think LHCS is more likely to be available than more 158s.

I don't see the Halton Curve working, or Wrexham-Bidston electrics.

Wrexham Central to Liverpool via Borderlands Line electrification sounds like a very good idea, maybe unlikely but I think it would work if implemented. Why don't you think it would work?

High percentage of Cambrian traffic is into West Midlands and beyond and changing at Shrewsbury is going to seriously inconvenience many and add literally hundreds of thousands of interchange passengers to be accommodated at Shrewsbury. Whilst I agree that Wales Border DMU's under wires are not necessarily a good thing I would hope that some through trains to Birmingham remain especially at key times.

I would agree that, if Cambrian services are to terminate at Shrewsbury, the interchange facilities there will need a massive upgrade. Hell, the waiting room on the main platforms isn't nearlly big enough as it is.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With the ATW franchise not ending until 2018, and the electrification not scheduled for completion until then, it is doutful that the powers-that-be will go to the trobble of getting ATW to start using EMUs for the limited sections of route which will be wired before their franchise expires. EMUs on the first day of the new franchise perhaps?

It doesn't work like that.
We don't really know yet what the electrification milestones will be (except for Bristol-Cardiff in 2017).
But the franchise operator will have to get involved (they probably are already) in NR/DfT/WG planning for the electric service (including selecting the rolling stock).
I would expect ATW to be doing this over the next 5 years.

By "not working" I mean economically, not technically.
There is scope for capital spend on routes and upgrades, but very little for revenue spend (ie subsidy).
That's why the Cambrian hourly service has not happened.
Borderlands and Halton might be good ideas, but where does the extra subsidy come from?
And on these schemes, NR are lukewarm, and the local politics are fragmented.
The most likely scheme to succeed is the NWML, because of its EU international status and the network benefits it would bring.

 

[SprinterMan]

Interesting question how many marks 3s were refurbed, without looking it up my guess is six plus attention to the dinners,I do know WG funded the refurbs at Cardiff Pullman at a cost of £3.5 millions,

As for the Chester to Wrexham redouble,Mike Bagshaw told us, the one service an hour up & down, could be increased to 3 an hour each way,this would be possible with increased line speeds between Chester & Shrewsbury,he made no mention of to/from.

As for the three 67s & DVTs you mention, I was under the impression, one of each was now with Chiltern, just leaving a spare set for "Gerald"

You are correct that 6 standard class mark 3s were refurbished, with the 2 restaurant cars also being touched up a bit, meaning that there are 8 mark 3s in total (2 first and 6 standard). I can assure you all ATW 67s and DVTs are still allocated to Arriva, 82307 used to be on short term lease to Chiltern when the WAG was still Mark 2 operated, but that was the only time ATW DVTs have ever been used by Chiltern.

Really? ATW's DVTs don't have the generator or the door controls for power door sets do they?

ATW DVTs do not have generators, but have been fitted with power door controls just in case they ever end up working with power door coaches. All 3 ATW DVTs remain allocated to ATW though.

Adam

 

[Rhydgaled]

By "not working" I mean economically, not technically.
There is scope for capital spend on routes and upgrades, but very little for revenue spend (ie subsidy).
That's why the Cambrian hourly service has not happened.
Borderlands and Halton might be good ideas, but where does the extra subsidy come from?

Would Borderlands require much, if any, additional revenue spend/subsidy? On the face of it, that appears to be more of a capital project to me, and didn't it fall through before because NR quoted a rather high capital cost for electrification? At a guess, Merseyrail EMUs are probably cheaper to run than class 150s (although the new stock they are suposedly planning might not be I suppose) and through running to Liverpool should cause passenger numbers / revenue to rise. And doesn't the service only 'cost' one diagram anyway?

You are correct that 6 standard class mark 3s were refurbished, with the 2 restaurant cars also being touched up a bit, meaning that there are 8 mark 3s in total (2 first and 6 standard). I can assure you all ATW 67s and DVTs are still allocated to Arriva, 82307 used to be on short term lease to Chiltern when the WAG was still Mark 2 operated, but that was the only time ATW DVTs have ever been used by Chiltern.

ATW DVTs do not have generators, but have been fitted with power door controls just in case they ever end up working with power door coaches. All 3 ATW DVTs remain allocated to ATW though.

Adam

Thanks for clearing that up. Still seems odd, 1 spare mrk3 rake but 2 spare DVTs. Have Pullman rail finished the refurbishment? With the mrk2s all 6 standard class coaches were seen in use together on rugby specials but I haven't seen any pics of all 6 ATW standard class mrk3s together forming a special.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Really? ATW's DVTs don't have the generator or the door controls for power door sets do they?

What about the marches? If the north Wales main line is to be electrified without the marches, then surely the service pattern needs to change with services northbound from Wrexham terminating at Chester and trains from Llandudno/Holyhead running through to Manchester/Crewe. I would argue that is probably a more sensible arangment anyway and should be implemented wires or no wires.

With the ATW franchise not ending until 2018, and the electrification not scheduled for completion until then, it is doutful that the powers-that-be will go to the trobble of getting ATW to start using EMUs for the limited sections of route which will be wired before their franchise expires. EMUs on the first day of the new franchise perhaps?

Oh dear. In my opinion, once the valleys are wired, ATW's current fleet makeup will be grossly mis-matched to what is required of it. I think the fleet needs to be very different, something like this:

• Class 156/155 units (or lots more 153s) for HOWL, Conwy Valley and Pembrokeshire - Swansea services
• Class 158 units for Cambrian - Birmingham, Birmingham - Chester and Pembrokeshire - Cardiff/Portsmouth services
• Class 175s, accompanied by LHCS, for Cardiff - Chester and Swansea/Cardiff - Manchester services, and the north Wales coast to Crewe/Manchester if not wired
• A much reduced class 150 fleet working stoppers Llandudno - Bangor/Holyhead, Crewe-Shrewsbury (if not made part of HOWL service), Wrexham-Bidston (if not electrified), Cardiff-Hereford and perhaps Cardiff-Cheltenham (really that should have been wired, or have some 172s for the job)

A handful of Pacers could be retained to run trial new services, for example Ammanford Central/Glanamman/Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen to Swansea, hopefully to be replaced (perhaps by tram-trains in this case) when/if the service proves itself.

Personally, I think the current Carmarthen/Pembs hourly through service to Manchester should be replaced by seperate services to Swansea only and through services to Cardiff via the Swansea District Line. The Manchester service, prefrablly, would become a Gerald-style train and terminate at Swansea (or Cardiff, if there wouldn't be enough paths for 5 trains per hour (Swansea-PAD (electric), Carmarthen/Pembs-Cardiff (158), Swansea-MAN (LHCS), Swansea-Cardiff (EMU) and Swansea-Bristol (EMU)) between Briton Ferry and Cardiff) rather than going further west.

If you like you can replace the LHCS I suggest above with more 158s, to run 4-car Manchester services. I just think LHCS is more likely to be available than more 158s.

Wrexham Central to Liverpool via Borderlands Line electrification sounds like a very good idea, maybe unlikely but I think it would work if implemented. Why don't you think it would work?

I would agree that, if Cambrian services are to terminate at Shrewsbury, the interchange facilities there will need a massive upgrade. Hell, the waiting room on the main platforms isn't nearlly big enough as it is.

It would be an average of over a 1000 a day ok maybe not on a Wednesday in mid february but come the weekends and holiday time. It's a serious consideration that needs addressing if we're serious about wiring to Shrewsbury.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It doesn't work like that.
We don't really know yet what the electrification milestones will be (except for Bristol-Cardiff in 2017).
But the franchise operator will have to get involved (they probably are already) in NR/DfT/WG planning for the electric service (including selecting the rolling stock).
I would expect ATW to be doing this over the next 5 years.

By "not working" I mean economically, not technically.
There is scope for capital spend on routes and upgrades, but very little for revenue spend (ie subsidy).
That's why the Cambrian hourly service has not happened.
Borderlands and Halton might be good ideas, but where does the extra subsidy come from?
And on these schemes, NR are lukewarm, and the local politics are fragmented.
The most likely scheme to succeed is the NWML, because of its EU international status and the network benefits it would bring.

Back in 1997 the local rail user group put forward a proposal to run a shuttle service in between the existing tt just between Newtown and Shrewsbury using a class 153 the first arrival into Shrewsbury would have been c0830 and last return 1830. Central Trains costed it at £450 K per annum to run, it would not have needed any infrastructure work and given the growth in usage on the line anyway with the existing 2 hourly service and additional traffic this service would have generated would probably paid for itself. It could have demonstrated the demand on the line and justified provided evidence for the second stage without any need to involve external stakeholders, external funding and millions£ on infrastructure and the whole sorry mess that the Cambrian hourly service proposal has been.

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks for clearing that up. Still seems odd, 1 spare mrk3 rake but 2 spare DVTs. Have Pullman rail finished the refurbishment? With the mrk2s all 6 standard class coaches were seen in use together on rugby specials but I haven't seen any pics of all 6 ATW standard class mrk3s together forming a special.

Here is a pic when the stock was used for the Footex to Wembley March 24th,
it consisted of five refurbed Mark 3s and one Mark 3 buffet car, top & Tailed by 67s. http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1303d.htm scroll down for Wrexham to Wembley

Bob

 

[swcovas]

It would be an average of over a 1000 a day ok maybe not on a Wednesday in mid february but come the weekends and holiday time. It's a serious consideration that needs addressing if we're serious about wiring to Shrewsbury.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Back in 1997 the local rail user group put forward a proposal to run a shuttle service in between the existing tt just between Newtown and Shrewsbury using a class 153 the first arrival into Shrewsbury would have been c0830 and last return 1830. Central Trains costed it at £450 K per annum to run, it would not have needed any infrastructure work and given the growth in usage on the line anyway with the existing 2 hourly service and additional traffic this service would have generated would probably paid for itself. It could have demonstrated the demand on the line and justified provided evidence for the second stage without any need to involve external stakeholders, external funding and millions£ on infrastructure and the whole sorry mess that the Cambrian hourly service proposal has been.

Yes, I remember that suggestion.....amazing to think it was over 15 years ago! Seemed to be a great interim idea. Why did nothing happen? Was it just a case of "it's going to cost £450k so forget it, guys!"

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, I remember that suggestion.....amazing to think it was over 15 years ago! Seemed to be a great interim idea. Why did nothing happen? Was it just a case of "it's going to cost £450k so forget it, guys!"

At the time they liked it (Central) but said they didn't have any spare units -though CT did order additional 170's soon afterward- come Dec 99 I was invited to a meeting in Newtown and thought something was moving. It was clear earlier in the day the WDA and local MP's had been in on a pre session with CT and out popped the hourly service to Aberystwyth cat.

Why? I suspect CT decided that Stakeholders wouldn't "get" interim or Stakeholders hijacked it to all the way to Aberystwyth. As a second stage or eventual aim but at any point in the intervening years we could have had extra trains between Newtown and Shrewsbury with no infrastructure costs. If you travel on the Cambrian you'll note a full 4 car train leaving Shrewsbury empty's quite well apart from on a few trains west of Newtown. It could have been resourced easily in CT days and later on by simply not carting so many 4 car formations west of Newtown.
ATW have always been supremely apathetic which has been a major stumbling block for last 10 years. Stakeholders have always wanted the whole hog with the price tag rather than ramp it up. A huge wasted opportunity.

 

[PHILIPE]

Understand ATWs Mark2s going to Riviera Trains for Charter use. Please note Rhydgaled so any more suggestions re use now futile.

 

[SprinterMan]

Understand ATWs Mark2s going to Riviera Trains for Charter use. Please note Rhydgaled so any more suggestions re use now futile.

This is excellent news. Glad to see decent rolling stock getting a new home. I assume that it is only the 6 Mark 2s that got the refurb going to RT, and not the knackered one ATW have in store in various places. Any idea what depot they will be based at?

Adam

 

[PHILIPE]

Afraid not at the moment

 

[SprinterMan]

Will the receive new interiors, or keep the ATW interiors as they are new-ish anyway?

Adam

 

[Rhydgaled]

Here is a pic when the stock was used for the Footex to Wembley March 24th,
it consisted of five refurbed Mark 3s and one Mark 3 buffet car, top & Tailed by 67s. http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1303d.htm scroll down for Wrexham to Wembley

Bob

I've seen that, a 6-car formation all right but not all 6 standard class coaches.

Understand ATWs Mark2s going to Riviera Trains for Charter use. Please note Rhydgaled so any more suggestions re use now futile.

This is excellent news. Glad to see decent rolling stock getting a new home. I assume that it is only the 6 Mark 2s that got the refurb going to RT, and not the knackered one ATW have in store in various places. Any idea what depot they will be based at?

Adam

As SprintMan says, is that the Gerald ones going for charter use? Photos I've seen on Flickr recently show some of ATW's other mrk2s being carted off, apparently to Long Marston.

Aren't there enough charter mrk2s anyway, there's loads at Crewe nearly every time I pass?

So now Wales really is doomed to inappropriate rolling stock and overcrowded services for the next five years (roughly).

 

[PHILIPE]

What TOC hasn't got overcrowded services ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

What TOC hasn't got overcrowded services ?

Theres a collective will not to do anything about it though, passengers have no truck with how the rail industry and franchise agreements work they just see higher fares, no solution to overcrowding and scratch their heads as to where more public money than BR ever received goes.

 

[Rhydgaled]

What TOC hasn't got overcrowded services ?

A valid question, I suppose every TOC has some at peak times.

However, did any other TOC discard rolling stock to charter operators that could have eased/resolved their crowding problems? And does anyone else diagram a class 150 (inner-suburban unit) for a service that stops only two or three times in 2hrs 20/26mins?

Also, I'm not sure the 15:30 Manchester to Pembroke Dock could be classified as peak until Shrewsbury, yet it is already crowded before then (although maybe that's because I normally use it on a Friday, does everyone else have flexi-time and finish early on Friday too?)

 

[merlodlliw]

I've seen that, a 6-car formation all right but not all 6 standard class coaches.

According to contacts, the footex was going to be all six car Mark 3s, but using the 1st buffet in place of one was considered better for pax comfort on such a long journey,however seven cars if used would have been filled.

Bob

 

[swcovas]

Stakeholders have always wanted the whole hog with the price tag rather than ramp it up. A huge wasted opportunity.

As you say a sadly wasted opportunity. I may be out of line in saying this but I think the "all or nothing syndrome" may have been the case with the HOWL in the past. There has always been a certain "anti" element to short workings on the line who saw it as a possible prelude to closing the quietest central section and ultimatley to the whole line.

ATW's lack of interest another case of them doing things........IF SOMEONE ELSE PAYS?

 

[tbtc]

ATW's lack of interest another case of them doing things........IF SOMEONE ELSE PAYS?

In fairness, the W&B franchise requires the highest subsidy (per passenger mile) of any TOC other than ScotRail (which has artificially low fares and a much more modern fleet - given the dozens of 170s, the 380s and is heavily controlled by Holyrood), so it's no great surprise that Arriva are reluctant to take huge risks on increasing certain services.

That'd be the same whether it was First/ Stagecoach/ GoAhead etc - unless Cardiff Bay are willing to pay for improvements then there's little incentive for the TOC to take risks.

 

[anthony263]

Hopefully whoever we have as the next operator of the wales & borders franchise will be more willing to invest rather than just going to the Welsh Government with a begging bowl.

That in my opinion why the subsidy is so high on the wales & borders franchise.

There does need to be incentives to try and encourage some train operators to invest in their franchises especially if they are long term franchises of 20 years or so.

With all the disruption that is going to happen over the next few years I think the new GW franchise should be longer than 15 years

 

[tbtc]

Hopefully whoever we have as the next operator of the wales & borders franchise will be more willing to invest rather than just going to the Welsh Government with a begging bowl.

That in my opinion why the subsidy is so high on the wales & borders franchise

In fairness to Arriva (which isn't a thing I hear very much on these threads), presumably their bid for the W&B franchise was the one that required the lowest subsidy?

In which case any other bidders would have wanted even more money to do things?

It just seems that Arriva are a handy scapegoat for the fact that most of the services they run are always going to be unprofitable (whereas we in Yorkshire kind of accept that Northern are in a similar position, and would need subsidy to improve a lot of services). Maybe that's why the politicians like them?

 

[merlodlliw]

In fairness to Arriva (which isn't a thing I hear very much on these threads), presumably their bid for the W&B franchise was the one that required the lowest subsidy?

In which case any other bidders would have wanted even more money to do things?

It just seems that Arriva are a handy scapegoat for the fact that most of the services they run are always going to be unprofitable (whereas we in Yorkshire kind of accept that Northern are in a similar position, and would need subsidy to improve a lot of services). Maybe that's why the politicians like them?

You may enjoy these points from the EFQM prepared ATW document given out in Wrexham at the RUG open meeting with Mike Bagshaw ATW Director guest speaker.

Investment In Franchise,£30m of ATW money invested,versus franchise requiirment for just £400k, ATW investment includes
Chester Station £2m
Driver Simulators £2m
Improved staff facilities £2m
Ticket gates £3m
Ticket vending machines etc £5m
Machynlleth £3m
Canton wheel lathe £2m
others (circa £10m) no brakedown

Very little investment was envisaged when the franchise was let ,indeed the specific franchise commitment was to spend £400k on car parks.
ATW has consistantly acted to add capacity and improve services whilst working with a limited fleet size, We provide 20% more services than the franchise agreement specifies and added over 525,000 annual seats to the timetable in 2012 alone.

 

[SprinterMan]

You may enjoy these points from the EFQM prepared ATW document given out in Wrexham at the RUG open meeting with Mike Bagshaw ATW Director guest speaker.

Investment In Franchise,£30m of ATW money invested,versus franchise requiirment for just £400k, ATW investment includes
Chester Station £2m
Driver Simulators £2m
Improved staff facilities £2m
Ticket gates £3m
Ticket vending machines etc £5m
Machynlleth £3m
Canton wheel lathe £2m
others (circa £10m) no brakedown

Very little investment was envisaged when the franchise was let ,indeed the specific franchise commitment was to spend £400k on car parks.
ATW has consistantly acted to add capacity and improve services whilst working with a limited fleet size, We provide 20% more services than the franchise agreement specifies and added over 525,000 annual seats to the timetable in 2012 alone.

That's good to know, nice to see ATW do care

 

[Gareth Marston]

I notice in the current RAIL that Julian Crow from FGW is retiring and he's widely credited with the improvements on the West Country branches unfortunately no similar driving figure from within rail industry has been seen west of OffAs Dyke. I know Chris Gibb was advised not to stay in Wales and Tom Clift soon went into exile after Arriva arrived.

 

[Rhydgaled]

ATW investment includes
Chester Station £2m

I don't think much of that. A few weekends ago I made a journey to the Llangollen railway from the Manchester area, changing at Chester to reach Wrexham. The only waiting room I found on the side where the Birmingham train was leaving from was a tiny triangle containing just six seats. That's even more insufficent than the main waiting room at Shrewsbury (platforms 4-7).

Very little investment was envisaged when the franchise was let ,indeed the specific franchise commitment was to spend £400k on car parks.
ATW has consistantly acted to add capacity and improve services whilst working with a limited fleet size, We provide 20% more services than the franchise agreement specifies and added over 525,000 annual seats to the timetable in 2012 alone.

Yet the only investment in additional rolling stock to reduce the fleet size constraint was met, so you tell me, by sacking of the person responsible and subsequent disuse of said rolling stock before throwing it away to a charter operator/Long Marston.

Wasn't the 15:30 off MAN I mentioned booked for a 3-car 175 before the 2-car 175 on the 14:30 was extended to 3-car? The supposed 'extra seats' are mainly just moving seats from other services aren't they?

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't think much of that. A few weekends ago I made a journey to the Llangollen railway from the Manchester area, changing at Chester to reach Wrexham. The only waiting room I found on the side where the Birmingham train was leaving from was a tiny triangle containing just six seats. That's even more insufficent than the main waiting room at Shrewsbury (platforms 4-7).

Yet the only investment in additional rolling stock to reduce the fleet size constraint was met, so you tell me, by sacking of the person responsible and subsequent disuse of said rolling stock before throwing it away to a charter operator/Long Marston.

Wasn't the 15:30 off MAN I mentioned booked for a 3-car 175 before the 2-car 175 on the 14:30 was extended to 3-car? The supposed 'extra seats' are mainly just moving seats from other services aren't they?

Interesting comment about Chester, considering its the 2nd busiest of all of ATWs managed stations in England & Wales.
Indeed the CEO who bought the mark2 carriages about 16 of them was dismissed almost immediately afterwards for the offence,

 

[transmanche]

A few weekends ago I made a journey to the Llangollen railway from the Manchester area, changing at Chester to reach Wrexham. The only waiting room I found on the side where the Birmingham train was leaving from was a tiny triangle containing just six seats.

Haha, that 'waiting room' is ridiculously tiny! And in the winter can get ridiculously hot, as the fan heater is obviously designed to heat a much larger space.

There is another larger waiting room across the bridge on platform 4 - but that's quite a trek from platform 2, where the Birmingham trains generally depart from.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Wasn't the 15:30 off MAN I mentioned booked for a 3-car 175 before the 2-car 175 on the 14:30 was extended to 3-car? The supposed 'extra seats' are mainly just moving seats from other services aren't they?

I don't think so. The 1530 has always been a 2-car 175. The 1430 used to also but this has now gone to a 3-car. The 1430 leaves Cardiff at 1739 and it was very tight when it was a 2-car 175!!

 

[Gareth Marston]

You may enjoy these points from the EFQM prepared ATW document given out in Wrexham at the RUG open meeting with Mike Bagshaw ATW Director guest speaker.

Investment In Franchise,£30m of ATW money invested,versus franchise requiirment for just £400k, ATW investment includes
Chester Station £2m
Driver Simulators £2m
Improved staff facilities £2m
Ticket gates £3m
Ticket vending machines etc £5m
Machynlleth £3m
Canton wheel lathe £2m
others (circa £10m) no brakedown

Very little investment was envisaged when the franchise was let ,indeed the specific franchise commitment was to spend £400k on car parks.
ATW has consistantly acted to add capacity and improve services whilst working with a limited fleet size, We provide 20% more services than the franchise agreement specifies and added over 525,000 annual seats to the timetable in 2012 alone.

The Machynlleth depot investment was a direct consequence of how poorly thought out the franchise was, the 158's on the Cambrian were falling over due to being so far from any meaningful maintenance facility. Its probably saved ATW money already in reduced maintenance costs and compensation payments for late/cancelled trains. Good that it was done but it was not a present from ATW but a necessity.

20% extra services if you've already paid the leasing charge and staff costs...
your not paying 20% more to put them on. It probably all slack that existed as the PSR's in Wales are based on BR's Winter 94 tt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In fairness, the W&B franchise requires the highest subsidy (per passenger mile) of any TOC other than ScotRail (which has artificially low fares and a much more modern fleet - given the dozens of 170s, the 380s and is heavily controlled by Holyrood), so it's no great surprise that Arriva are reluctant to take huge risks on increasing certain services.

That'd be the same whether it was First/ Stagecoach/ GoAhead etc - unless Cardiff Bay are willing to pay for improvements then there's little incentive for the TOC to take risks.

An argument against regional railways being franchised there me thinks as the inverse of entrepreneurial and risk taking is the norm so whats the "added value" of having private sector TOCs? Subsidy always sat uncomfortably with allowing private sector involvement, of course the clever people who designed rail privatization assumed the private sector would be so more efficient than bad old public sector BR that they would eliminate the need for Govt subsidy bar the need for the handful of remaining rural lines that Govt couldn't close to be crossed subsidized by premium payments. They never predicted the growth in passenger numbers and the problems that brings either.

 

[tbtc]

An argument against regional railways being franchised there me thinks as the inverse of entrepreneurial and risk taking is the norm so whats the "added value" of having private sector TOCs? Subsidy always sat uncomfortably with allowing private sector involvement, of course the clever people who designed rail privatization assumed the private sector would be so more efficient than bad old public sector BR that they would eliminate the need for Govt subsidy bar the need for the handful of remaining rural lines that Govt couldn't close to be crossed subsidized by premium payments. They never predicted the growth in passenger numbers and the problems that brings either.

There's an easy answer to that...

• Give the Valley Lines, Swanline and the services west of Swansea to the operator of the London - Cardiff - Swansea services
• Give the Aberystwyth service to the operator of the Wolverhampton - Birmingham - London services
• Give the North Wales Coast services to the operator of the Holyhead - London service

That way you have the intercity and the "local" in one TOC, which has an incentive to promote the "local" services, an incentive to co-ordinate them with the "intercity" services and keep costs down.

The only problem with that is it'd mean certain people would have to abandon any ambitions of an "All Wales" franchise... maybe not a bad thing though.