ATW May 2013 Timetable

[SprinterMan]

As far as I can tell, for North Wales the only changes are that the Sunday service goes back to it's Summer times, and the SO 0425 ex HHD goes to Manchester instead of Cardiff, with the Cardiff service starting from Chester. I belive that these changes happen every year.

Adam

 

[anthony263]

Living in Pontyclun, I am glad to finally hear there will be extra services! Does anyone know the extent of this? Are we going to finally get 2tph? Are we going to get to keep the 4 car set for the 0821 we get during school holidays when it's lengthening the Ebbw trains?

Nice to see that ATW have finally realised there are more passengers from PYC than 1tph!!!

I think we will have to wait until the loop is installed north of Tondu before we see a ful half hourly service between Cardiff & Maesteg which will serve Pontyclun. Of course I do agree that there needs to be half hourly service service Pontyclun & Pencoed although I am not sure Llanharren can justify being served by 2 tph.

Again I do hope we see the station at Brackla built

 

[tiptoptaff]

I think we will have to wait until the loop is installed north of Tondu before we see a ful half hourly service between Cardiff & Maesteg which will serve Pontyclun. Of course I do agree that there needs to be half hourly service service Pontyclun & Pencoed although I am not sure Llanharren can justify being served by 2 tph.

Again I do hope we see the station at Brackla built

I've read musings that they may open a station in St Fags and Peterson Super Ely - with two extra stations on the line, surely that would justify a second all shacks to Bridgend? Calling St Fags, P-S-Ely, Pontyclun, Llanharran, Pencoed and Brackla?

adding stops to the journey on already over-crowded trains surely can't be justified without plans to increase frequencey and/or capacity?!

 

[anthony263]

It is planned to have 2tph between Cardiff & Maesteg as as previously said.

You are corect that there are those campaigning for a station at St Fagans which would be handy for tourists visiting the museum and take the pressure off the roads and local bus services which serve the area.The station @ St Fagans would also serve some of the western suburbs of Cardiff.

The new station at Brackla would serve a large area such as the Brackla housing estate as well as Bridgned & Waterton industrial estates which are pretty big and host some veyr large employers such as Fords and the villiage of Coychurch.

There are also plans to build more housing near Llanharren as well as some more close to Pontyclun.

 

[quarella]

It is planned to have 2tph between Cardiff & Maesteg as as previously said.

You are corect that there are those campaigning for a station at St Fagans which would be handy for tourists visiting the museum and take the pressure off the roads and local bus services which serve the area.The station @ St Fagans would also serve some of the western suburbs of Cardiff.

The new station at Brackla would serve a large area such as the Brackla housing estate as well as Bridgned & Waterton industrial estates which are pretty big and host some veyr large employers such as Fords and the villiage of Coychurch.

There are also plans to build more housing near Llanharren as well as some more close to Pontyclun.

I am not convinced of the need for either of these additional stations. If a station was built to serve the museum it would not be near any substantial area of housing and the primary access by road is off the A4232. A substantial change of attitude in the travelling public would be required to get most potential visitors to take 2 trains to get there.
Most of Brackla/Bridgend Industrial Estate is within 2 miles or a half hour walk through what I feel are fairly safe areas of the existing Bridgend station. At some point between the 1980s and now people have lost the ability to walk unless it is on a treadmill at the gym.

 

[Greenback]

I am not convinced of the need for either of these additional stations. If a station was built to serve the museum it would not be near any substantial area of housing and the primary access by road is off the A4232. A substantial change of attitude in the travelling public would be required to get most potential visitors to take 2 trains to get there.

I don't know the area around St Fagan's, so I won't argue with you about the need for a station there. I agree that most visitors will not find rail a viable option, but at the moment, none of them will!

Most of Brackla/Bridgend Industrial Estate is within 2 miles or a half hour walk through what I feel are fairly safe areas of the existing Bridgend station. At some point between the 1980s and now people have lost the ability to walk unless it is on a treadmill at the gym.

If there is no need for stations that are half an hours walk from anothe rone, how come there are so many stations in London?

 

[quarella]

If there is no need for stations that are half an hours walk from anothe rone, how come there are so many stations in London?
Greenback is offline Reply With Quote

Population density.

 

[Greenback]

Is the population density in Brackla low? Or are you referring to the area or region?

I am just interested to know why this station isn't necessary, yet there are stations on the Maesteg branch that seem pretty close to each other.

 

[quarella]

Is the population density in Brackla low? Or are you referring to the area or region?

I am just interested to know why this station isn't necessary, yet there are stations on the Maesteg branch that seem pretty close to each other.

By comparison with London I would say the population density is lower.

The Maesteg branch I would close Wildmill which I do use occasionally, sometimes someone else uses it too. I would also close Ewenny Road which I would suggest was a WDA led political opening WDA led due to the industrial estate, now largely closed down.
Perhaps consideration needs to be given to converting these frequent stop services to light rail tram operations which I have said Valley Lines should be for years keeping heavy rail for higher speed distance work for which it was designed. A balance needs to be considered between convenience of a local station and the overall journey time due to stops.

I am rather cynical about these things. Back in 1990 I drove a council subsidised bus from the housing at Worle to Worle Parkway station. I carried one passenger and I doubt half a dozen were boarding or alighting from any of the peak time trains with an empty car park. What a waste of money. However when I used Worle to travel to work for some shifts 5 years later I found it to be a very busy station resulting in one peak time train missing Weston altogether. 0715? Highbridge - Haverfordwest.

 

[Greenback]

The Maesteg branch I would close Wildmill which I do use occasionally, sometimes someone else uses it too. I would also close Ewenny Road which I would suggest was a WDA led political opening WDA led due to the industrial estate, now largely closed down.
Perhaps consideration needs to be given to converting these frequent stop services to light rail tram operations which I have said Valley Lines should be for years keeping heavy rail for higher speed distance work for which it was designed. A balance needs to be considered between convenience of a local station and the overall journey time due to stops.

Interesting points. My view is that you are correct in that a balance needs to be struck between convenience and speed. Of course, in other countries they achieve this by having local trains and all stops services, with fast trains missing out the smaller stops and connecting in and out of the fast trains at interchanges.

In a sensibly planned timetable and with the benefit of more resources, the Maesteg trains could connect with the HST services at Bridgend, and there could also be stopping traisn between Bridgend and Cardiff serving Pencoed and other intermediate stops.

Still, we don't have either so some compromises need to be made as we have to cut our cloth according to what we do have!

 

[tbtc]

It is planned to have 2tph between Cardiff & Maesteg as as previously said

Is this two via Pencoed, or could the second service be an extension of the Barry service (providing connections for Maesteg passengers who want a faster HST as far as Bridgend)?

 

[anthony263]

It could be both. I think Network rail were planning for two services via Pencoed.

Of course you could send one via the Vale of Glamorgan line and have an electrified swanline service call at Pencoed & Pontyclun giving those tow towns direct acess to Port Talbo, Neath & Swansea.

Of course one downside to that is that you will eleminate the time savings on the swanline service from electrification. Currently it takes 65 minutes for the swanline services between Swansea & Cardiff with electrification this reduces to 59 minutes

 

[quarella]

Interesting points. My view is that you are correct in that a balance needs to be struck between convenience and speed. Of course, in other countries they achieve this by having local trains and all stops services, with fast trains missing out the smaller stops and connecting in and out of the fast trains at interchanges.

In a sensibly planned timetable and with the benefit of more resources, the Maesteg trains could connect with the HST services at Bridgend, and there could also be stopping traisn between Bridgend and Cardiff serving Pencoed and other intermediate stops.

Still, we don't have either so some compromises need to be made as we have to cut our cloth according to what we do have!

Amen.

 

[PHILIPE]

ATW May Timetable still not yet on line. Lagging behind most of the other TOCs as usual.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Now on Line, Friday

 

[merlodlliw]

Not sure if its been put up, but the new ATW timetables May to December are now on line. link http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/timetables/

Interestingly the blurb says

Download train timetables for Arriva Trains Wales services in Wales and England here. The timetables are valid until 18 May 2013.

 

[Greenback]

Great stuff, thanks Bob, I've been looking forward to seeing the changes!

 

[anthony263]

Good to see the timetables uploaded.

The 07:14 service from Cardiff to Swansea arriving into Swansea at 08:30 (Most likely having to wait outside the station for the 08:28 Swansea - London service to depart) will be very popular with commuters and take some of the pressure off the 07:50 service from Cardiff to Milford Haven.

Certainly I would have used it when I was attending university a few years ago.

 

[SprinterMan]

I know this isn't strictly ATW, but Virgin have redone their Saturday North Wales timetable.

The current 0850 London Euston to Holyhead and return 1438 Holyhead to London Euston (the former Pendolino drag, now operated by a pair of Voyagers) will now operate at the same times they do as during the week, meaning that the northbound working loses it's Watford Junction call. Weirdly, on the 1st of June, the southbound train runs to it's old timings for some reason. Does anyone know why? Interestingly, there is also a new 1155 Holyhead to London Euston, formed from an ECS movement from Crewe, running via Middlewich and Delamere.

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

I know this isn't strictly ATW, but Virgin have redone their Saturday North Wales timetable.

The current 0850 London Euston to Holyhead and return 1438 Holyhead to London Euston (the former Pendolino drag, now operated by a pair of Voyagers) will now operate at the same times they do as during the week, meaning that the northbound working loses it's Watford Junction call. Weirdly, on the 1st of June, the southbound train runs to it's old timings for some reason. Does anyone know why? Interestingly, there is also a new 1155 Holyhead to London Euston, formed from an ECS movement from Crewe, running via Middlewich and Delamere.

Adam

Adam I would be obliged if you could put up the Real Times Trains for the 0700 Wrexham/Euston Mon/Fri & return ex Euston 1810, to see if they have now officially withdrawn it on Bank Holiday Mondays, ATW is the new service from Chester to Shrewsbury on Bank Holiday Mondays in the evening.I am meaning from May 2013 timetable change. I am a bit of a duffer finding the info myself.
Many thanks

Bob

 

[ValleyLines142]

Good to see the timetables uploaded.

The 07:14 service from Cardiff to Swansea arriving into Swansea at 08:30 (Most likely having to wait outside the station for the 08:28 Swansea - London service to depart) will be very popular with commuters and take some of the pressure off the 07:50 service from Cardiff to Milford Haven.

Certainly I would have used it when I was attending university a few years ago.

Slightly annoying that it takes an hour and fifteen minutes when most other services take fifty minutes though! I imagine that's probably due to the fact that it's a Swanline service calling at all stations.

 

[greatkingrat]

On 27th May, the 0700 from Wrexham is shown as cancelled. However the evening 1810 from Euston appears to still be running.

 

[merlodlliw]

On 27th May, the 0700 from Wrexham is shown as cancelled. However the evening 1810 from Euston appears to still be running.

Thanks ,very confusing which contradicts ATWs new timetable

Bob

 

[Michael.Y]

Interestingly, there is also a new 1155 Holyhead to London Euston, formed from an ECS movement from Crewe, running via Middlewich and Delamere.

Adam

And not before time. This will hopefully alleviate some of the pressure on the 1238 HHD - Maesteg, which is always full of London-bound Irish pax off the ferry.

Given that the 1438 is now retimed for 1358, then why is the ATW service still at 1423 with a 14-minute wait at Chester?

 

[SprinterMan]

On 27th May, the 0700 from Wrexham is shown as cancelled. However the evening 1810 from Euston appears to still be running.

Beat me to it :P

And not before time. This will hopefully alleviate some of the pressure on the 1238 HHD - Maesteg, which is always full of London-bound Irish pax off the ferry.

Given that the 1438 is now retimed for 1358, then why is the ATW service still at 1423 with a 14-minute wait at Chester?

This is probably ATW using the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", despite the fact that this train was timed to run like this specifically because of the VT service. It also seems that VT deliberately go out of their way to inconvenience ferry passengers. During the week, the 1224 Bangor-Euston would connect with the ferry, but it starts from Bangor and not Holyhead, and when the VHF timetable first came in the 0150 HHD-BHM was cancelled (presumably due to Voyager maintenance schedules, can anyone confirm or deny this?), meaning boat passengers have to wait for the 0425 HHD-CDF train. Why did Arriva not pick up the 0150 service when VT cancelled it? If anyone has any info about the cancellation of this service I would love to hear it.

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

Beat me to it :P

This is probably ATW using the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", despite the fact that this train was timed to run like this specifically because of the VT service. It also seems that VT deliberately go out of their way to inconvenience ferry passengers. During the week, the 1224 Bangor-Euston would connect with the ferry, but it starts from Bangor and not Holyhead, and when the VHF timetable first came in the 0150 HHD-BHM was cancelled (presumably due to Voyager maintenance schedules, can anyone confirm or deny this?), meaning boat passengers have to wait for the 0425 HHD-CDF train. Why did Arriva not pick up the 0150 service when VT cancelled it? If anyone has any info about the cancellation of this service I would love to hear it.

I am sure ATW ran the 0150 service, then it was taken over by VT without catering and cancelled,one of the reasons for the 1224 Bangor/Euston was to ensure the stock was in Euston to form whatever service back,not sure if it was a Chester or 1710 to Holyhead, so I was told. We have the situation at Holyhead a major port with rail,which sees no trains out between 2025 and 0425 an 8 hour gap, yet many ferries use the port between those times. Even little Fishguard has 2 trains that connect with the two ferries.

Bob

 

[SprinterMan]

I am sure ATW ran the 0150 service, then it was taken over by VT without catering and cancelled

This is true, VT took over in 2005. What I would like to know is why it now no longer exists. Is it lack of demand, or lack of stock, or something more sinister?

one of the reasons for the 1224 Bangor/Euston was to ensure the stock was in Euston to form whatever service back,not sure if it was a Chester or 1710 to Holyhead, so I was told.

Bob

That would seem to sense, although it could run to Holyhead, arriving at 1150ish, then run back at 1200, making it a few minutes later along the coast, and this time can be made up by cutting down dwell times at Chester & Crewe, or by omitting the Prestatyn & Flint stops. I have had a look at the diagrams on RTT and the 1224 seems to couple to an empty Voyager from BHM, before going to EUS carriage shed, then working the 2003 to Wolvo. As it stands, it seems like VT are deliberately trying to discourage people from using the ferry, and ATW don't care about the night train.

Adam

 

[hilly]

And not before time. This will hopefully alleviate some of the pressure on the 1238 HHD - Maesteg, which is always full of London-bound Irish pax off the ferry.

Given that the 1438 is now retimed for 1358, then why is the ATW service still at 1423 with a 14-minute wait at Chester?

Only problem is ferries arrive at 1130 and 1150 and the terminal is a fair way from the rail platform - even with the shuttle bus so ferry pax will still be on the 1238 ( done this trip a few times for the rugby In Dublin and sometimes it's been close for the 1238)

 

[Eire Sprinter]

As I understand it the night boat train from Holyhead was cancelled due to insufficient demand at that time. Here is a newspaper article from the time.

Apparently at the time the ferry companies couldn't make a case for retention of the service due to insufficient numbers.

However in the few short intervening years there has been a marked resurgence in travel by rail and sea (publically documented by many ferry companies).

I further understand that the present situation is that security would be needed on a night train out of Holyhead and that the cost of this is apparently why a train around 01.30/02.00 ex Holyhead hasn't been introduced to date. While any night train would be primarily used by ferry passengers it stands to reason that there would be some usage of it (e.g. for long distance travel & for returning home after a night out) from the key North Wales stations it would likely serve.

At the moment Bus Éireann-Eurolines take the majority of overnight passengers from Dublin bound for London/Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds. In fact it is possible to board these coaches in Holyhead even if one has not travelled by ferry at all. Their Dublin to London coach is usually full (or close to full) departing Dublin and at times an extra coach is needed. Usage of the Dublin-Leeds (via Chester, Liverpool, Manchester) overnight coach fluctuates. The coaches naturally take longer but the plus is there is no change required and one can sleep the whole way from Holyhead to London Victoria.

The "midnight" ferry arrivals are:
00.20 (20.55 Irish Ferries cruise ferry Ulysses from Dublin)
00.45 (21.15 Stena Line superferry Stena Adventurer from Dublin)
Both of these are large ferries which are very weather-resilient. The giant that is Irish Ferries Ulysses can handle pretty much any tempest the Irish Sea can throw at it and gets across no matter what.

The 11.55 Holyhead-Euston really needs to run daily at perhaps 12.10/15 ex Holyhead. Having travelled at this time during the week and considering a lot of ferry passengers are London-bound it's not user-friendly taking one train Holyhead to Bangor and waiting at Bangor for around twenty minutes before continuing.

Mid-morning ferry arrivals at Holyhead are:
10.45 (08.45 Irish Ferries Jonathan Swift fast ferry from Dublin; this can be cancelled in high winds and passengers transferred to the cruise ferry)
11.30 (08.05 Irish Ferries cruise ferry Ulysses from Dublin)
11.50 (08.20 Stena Line Stena Adventurer superferry from Dublin)

 

[merlodlliw]

train

As I understand it the night boat train from Holyhead was cancelled due to insufficient demand at that time. Here is a newspaper article from the time.

Apparently at the time the ferry companies couldn't make a case for retention of the service due to insufficient numbers.

However in the few short intervening years there has been a marked resurgence in travel by rail and sea (publically documented by many ferry companies).

I further understand that the present situation is that security would be needed on a night train out of Holyhead and that the cost of this is apparently why a train around 01.30/02.00 ex Holyhead hasn't been introduced to date. While any night train would be primarily used by ferry passengers it stands to reason that there would be some usage of it (e.g. for long distance travel & for returning home after a night out) from the key North Wales stations it would likely serve.

At the moment Bus Éireann-Eurolines take the majority of overnight passengers from Dublin bound for London/Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds. In fact it is possible to board these coaches in Holyhead even if one has not travelled by ferry at all. Their Dublin to London coach is usually full (or close to full) departing Dublin and at times an extra coach is needed. Usage of the Dublin-Leeds (via Chester, Liverpool, Manchester) overnight coach fluctuates. The coaches naturally take longer but the plus is there is no change required and one can sleep the whole way from Holyhead to London Victoria.

The "midnight" ferry arrivals are:
00.20 (20.55 Irish Ferries cruise ferry Ulysses from Dublin)
00.45 (21.15 Stena Line superferry Stena Adventurer from Dublin)
Both of these are large ferries which are very weather-resilient. The giant that is Irish Ferries Ulysses can handle pretty much any tempest the Irish Sea can throw at it and gets across no matter what.

The 11.55 Holyhead-Euston really needs to run daily at perhaps 12.10/15 ex Holyhead. Having travelled at this time during the week and considering a lot of ferry passengers are London-bound it's not user-friendly taking one train Holyhead to Bangor and waiting at Bangor for around twenty minutes before continuing.

Mid-morning ferry arrivals at Holyhead are:
10.45 (08.45 Irish Ferries Jonathan Swift fast ferry from Dublin; this can be cancelled in high winds and passengers transferred to the cruise ferry)
11.30 (08.05 Irish Ferries cruise ferry Ulysses from Dublin)
11.50 (08.20 Stena Line Stena Adventurer superferry from Dublin)

,,
A very well put thread Eire sprinter,however as regards, security,very few would spend a night out in Rhyl or Colwyn Bay plus the trains always ran Holyhead/Bangor/Junction/Chester. But ATW does run a night train ferry service from Fishguard with local calls to Swansea without problems,plus Fishguard is the UKs only station that allows smoking on the platform.

Bob

 

[Eire Sprinter]

Thanks. My opinion is that security should not be an issue but that's what I heard was/is apparently a reason. And with CCTV being the norm I think that any troublemakers will think twice. Even if a few "clubbers" use a night train the vast majority are either quiet or just a bit loud/chatty with their mates but not threatening in any way to other passengers.

Another side is that a few passengers could become troublesome as a result of drinking on the ferry (lucky them if they have the cash to splash on more than a modest drink or two in these recessionary times!) but then there are the staff on the ferry and authorities at Holyhead who can deal with any such passengers before they get anywhere near a train.

Interestingly it's been my experience anytime I've used the overnight coach that the driver makes an announcement setting out from Holyhead that in the event of any trouble he will simply contact the police. No harm in a similar announcement/recording on the train if the train operator has a concern. I daresay if a train operator has a concern it may be possible for night police patrols in the few towns the train is stopping in to make a brief appearance at the station at train time.

Whether it's Ireland, Wales, England etc there's an inherent small risk of a problem on nighttime regional transport but a 1 in 100 or a 1 in 1000 chance of a problem can't be used as an excuse not to provide a service in the first instance. Perhaps there's some aspect of this I'm missing or an issue train operators perceive or believe to exist that we don't know about.

One night over 20 years ago on the 01.50 from Fishguard Harbour myself and a family member were being bothered a bit by a man (could have been two men as my memory of it is vague) repeatedly insistent on shaking our hands and the guard allowed us to travel in first class (that was in the days of the HST). Around Christmas a few years ago one passenger started singing and for those of us not already dozing it was amusing! Last trip the only sound was some passengers snoring and the guard having a chat with a passenger (nothing wrong with that). Safe as houses.