London Coach termini - poor location?

[brianthegiant]

probably this has been discussed to death, but does anyone else think Golders Green & Victoria are too far from Central London & that this makes taking a coach into London unattractive. Golders Green in particular isn't particularly well connected, with only the Northern Line.

The 2 problems with a new more central coach station would be I suppose difficulty of finding suitable space & delays due to congestion. My impression is that quite a few coaches from the North stop at both Golders Green and somewhere in the city, so congestion is an issue anyway.

The only places which come to mind would all require a coach station to go underground I think:
1) under Regents Park - travelator connection To Euston/St Pancras
2) Smithfield Market considerable empty property in this area. Underground wharehouse currently in use for Crossrail construction. very close to Faringdon Crossrail/Thameslink, close to City of London.
3) under Hyde Park

Whilst enclosed bus stations got a bad image from 70s attempts, I think modern designs with automatic doors separating waiting area from roads solves the fume problem. Good ventilation design should ensure air is drawn from waiting area into road area & not vice versa.

 

[starrymarkb]

Define Central London... Victoria is pretty central, link to the tube could be better though

 

[radamfi]

Golders Green is there for the convenience of people living in north London.

Victoria suits me fine as my trains into London go there! Obviously Victoria has reasonable onward travel connections with the Victoria Line, District & Circle Line, many bus routes and of course many National Rail connections. You will find it difficult to find somewhere more connected in the West End, and your suggestions are arguably less convenient for places like Oxford Street, Leicester Square etc. Some National Express coaches stop on Park Lane at Marble Arch to set down only and the Oxford Tube, Oxford X90 and certain National Express services to Stansted and Luton airports pick up in the Oxford Street/Marble Arch area too.

 

[nicobobinus]

I would discount the use of Smithfield - although the location would be handy for onward travel from Farringdon (esp once Crossrail is up and running), getting coaches across Central London from the west would be an absolute pain. Victoria is quite well positioned in that regard, cutting out the worst of the central traffic mess. Travel in from the north would be slightly better - coaches could go A41/A501/Farringdon Road, but still doesn't compare favourably with the fairly quick run down the A41 and Park Lane, especially at rush hours when the Euston & Marylebone roads are prone to locking up. I reckon the idea of sending 30-40 extra coaches an hour through the heart of town would meet with resistance from cycling groups too.

Hypothetically speaking the presence of a new coach station under Regents Park or Hyde Park would make bringing coaches in via the road network a breeze, but links into the TfL network from either site would either be extremely expensive or just inadequate. Trying to feed an entire coach station's passenger flow into Hyde Park Corner or Marble Arch tube stations just wouldn't work. And a travelator from Regents Park into Euston would have to be half a mile or more in length!

I think VCS is well enough sited, though the link into the TfL network is not what it could be. If a pot of TfL money existed to improve integration between coaches and the core London public transport network, putting in an underground travelator between VCS/Colonnade Walk and the NR/Tube stations would be the way to go.

 

[scotsman]

I think Victoria could be improved (arrivals and departures in the same building may help!), as opposed to a new site - myself and two friends managed to get around central London easy enough from there.

 

[anthony263]

Having done many coach trips to London I can say I hate Victoria coach station especially if you have a really long coach where you really havve to be careful and there is a long line of coaches waiting to enter into arrivals and unload their passengers.

London could do with another coach station to take some pressure off Victoria, somwhere near the Paddington area would be great since most of the congestion I have ever faced coming into London is on the section after you get to White City and from there into central London.

It is likely to get worse with more coach operators running services since coach travel is becoming more popular

 

[bicbasher]

Lewisham is also used for SE London passengers on the Kent routes.

 

[transmanche]

I think Victoria could be improved (arrivals and departures in the same building may help!), as opposed to a new site.

If there's not enough room, then an arrivals/departures split seems to be the most logical.

London could do with another coach station to take some pressure off Victoria, somewhere near the Paddington area would be great since most of the congestion I have ever faced coming into London is on the section after you get to White City and from there into central London.

I'd say the best place for a new coach station would be somewhere around Stratford - if there's a suitable site.

Stratford now has excellent transport connections - which will only get better with the arrival of Crossrail. And for the coaches, easy access to the A12, A13, A406 and M11 (and then to the M25).

 

[SF-02]

If there's not enough room, then an arrivals/departures split seems to be the most logical.

I'd say the best place for a new coach station would be somewhere around Stratford - if there's a suitable site.

Stratford now has excellent transport connections - which will only get better with the arrival of Crossrail. And for the coaches, easy access to the A12, A13, A406 and M11 (and then to the M25).

Agree with Straford as a hub in addition to Victoria, and also Canary Wharf would be a good spot. It's on the A11 and near quite a few motorways. I've been taking the DLR through that area recently and there are a huge number of new flats. Also masses of derelict land for a coach station, and much of that land will have high density housing in coming years. The population of the Thames Gateway has risen sharply, and is projected for huge growth over the next 20 years, stretching from Kent / Essex up to Shadwell north of the river and Bermondsey to the south and masses of London. An option to the east away from Victoria would be great, and not just the odd Kent routes in Lewisham, but a real base with various routes and high frequencies.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Berry's Coaches 'Superfast' services from Taunton used Hammersmith a few years ago, AFAIK they still do... This was always adequate for transferring to LU or local buses and the journey in from the A3 or the Westway (dependent on route- A358-A303-M3 or M5-M4) was fairly swift outside of the peaks. Probably more convenient than Victoria from the West but there's not much space for much more.

 

[ivanhoe]

For the large number of coaches coming from the Midlands and the North, Golders Green
is an option to miss out the last hour it generally takes to Victoria. I think it is a decent interchange. Victoria is in a Central area in my opinion. Leave well alone because nobody is going to supply any cash for new coach stations. All available cash is going on new train sets!

 

[Eagle]

There was a proposal, in the early 1980s, to convert Marylebone station into coach use (with the track between there and Finchley Road converted to a bus road). At the time it was a lightly-used commuter station with no services beyond Banbury, and the trains there would have fitted into Paddington or Baker Street as appropriate.

Makes you wonder why they didn't choose Broad Street instead, as that was clearly on its last legs, and is much closer to the city.

 

[yorksrob]

There was a proposal, in the early 1980s, to convert Marylebone station into coach use (with the track between there and Finchley Road converted to a bus road). At the time it was a lightly-used commuter station with no services beyond Banbury, and the trains there would have fitted into Paddington or Baker Street as appropriate.

Makes you wonder why they didn't choose Broad Street instead, as that was clearly on its last legs, and is much closer to the city.

I‘d have thought the proportion of coach travelers heading for the city itself was relatively small though .

For myself, on the occasion when I missed my booked train from yorkshire, Victoria coach station was in just about the best location possible for my last train to Kent -even after a five hour journey.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Once they've completed crossrail, how about old oak common?

 

[radamfi]

I can't see taxpayers' money paying for a new coach station, as coaches primarily compete against the train network. I presume the coach stations built in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham etc. were paid for by National Express?

VCS, though, is a bit different as it is owned by TfL and is used by other operators. So who paid for the refurbishment 20 years ago? LT? Perhaps it is acceptable for taxpayers' money to pay for refurbishment but not relocation.

 

[Eagle]

I presume the coach stations built in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham etc. were paid for by National Express?

Nope to all three. Manchester Shudehill and Liverpool Queen Square were built by their PTEs. Being as they mainly handle local bus services.

Birmingham Digbeth, which is now coaches only but used to handle buses, was built before the war (although the recent refurbishment was at least partially funded by NX Coaches).

 

[Antman]

The Berry's Coaches 'Superfast' services from Taunton used Hammersmith a few years ago, AFAIK they still do... This was always adequate for transferring to LU or local buses and the journey in from the A3 or the Westway (dependent on route- A358-A303-M3 or M5-M4) was fairly swift outside of the peaks. Probably more convenient than Victoria from the West but there's not much space for much more.

Yes Berrys still start and terminate at Hammersmith.

I think Victoria is an ok location, just a shame it can't be enlarged somehow. A lot of people are changing from one coach to another so its probably best to keep them all terminating at one location.

 

[radamfi]

Nope to all three. Manchester Shudehill and Liverpool Queen Square were built by their PTEs. Being as they mainly handle local bus services.

Birmingham Digbeth, which is now coaches only but used to handle buses, was built before the war (although the recent refurbishment was at least partially funded by NX Coaches).

National Express don't use Shudehill. They have their own coach station in Chorlton Street, which was rebuilt around 10 years ago and renamed 'Central'. Who paid for that rebuilding?

Similarly, a brand new coach station for National Express only was built in Liverpool.

 

[anthony263]

In my opinion yes there should be a coach station near to Old Oak Common especially if the proposed interchange station is built there which will be served by HS2 and Crossrail.

Coach operators could use it to offer passengers through tickets like Megabus does now at East Midlands Parkway.

 

[telstarbox]

A coach journey from Yorkshire or the North West is generally 3-4 hours on the M1/M6 at decent speed, followed by an hour's crawl from Brent Cross (where the M1 ends) to Victoria. The slow hour makes a big difference to the journey time and makes the coach much less competitive with the train.

The 'outer London' stops eg Golders Green for the M1 routes , Hammersmith for the M4 routes are a good idea, but NX don't stop all their northern services at Golders Green and Megabus don't stop there at all.

Are there many north - south passengers who change between coaches at Victoria eg Manchester - VCS - Southampton (bearing in mind that there are also cross-country coach routes which avoid London)? If not, then having a single coach station seems less important, and a better way might be to have one at Brent Cross for the northern services, and keep VCS for those to the south and west.

 

[Eagle]

VCS is also where you change for Eurolines coaches to the Continent though. Low-cost coach travel abroad is getting increasingly popular.

 

[radamfi]

A coach journey from Yorkshire or the North West is generally 3-4 hours on the M1/M6 at decent speed, followed by an hour's crawl from Brent Cross (where the M1 ends) to Victoria. The slow hour makes a big difference to the journey time and makes the coach much less competitive with the train.

The 'outer London' stops eg Golders Green for the M1 routes , Hammersmith for the M4 routes are a good idea, but NX don't stop all their northern services at Golders Green and Megabus don't stop there at all.

Are there many north - south passengers who change between coaches at Victoria eg Manchester - VCS - Southampton (bearing in mind that there are also cross-country coach routes which avoid London)? If not, then having a single coach station seems less important, and a better way might be to have one at Brent Cross for the northern services, and keep VCS for those to the south and west.

easyBus tried to run their services to Milton Keynes from Hendon Central tube station but that was unsuccessful and they decided to move more into central London by terminating at Baker Street. I think that most coach passengers prefer to travel into central London even if it would be quicker to change onto the tube/train in outer London. Note how many people get off at Golders Green on services that stop there. Quite a few, but most continue to Victoria. That's probably why NX don't stop all their services at Golders Green. Megabus could stop anywhere (and do tend to avoid bus stations in most places) but still choose to go to Victoria, even when they were using Bullied Way.

Megabus generally don't do connections but they now offer connections between domestic and international Megabus services at Victoria.

 

[Antman]

A coach journey from Yorkshire or the North West is generally 3-4 hours on the M1/M6 at decent speed, followed by an hour's crawl from Brent Cross (where the M1 ends) to Victoria. The slow hour makes a big difference to the journey time and makes the coach much less competitive with the train.

The 'outer London' stops eg Golders Green for the M1 routes , Hammersmith for the M4 routes are a good idea, but NX don't stop all their northern services at Golders Green and Megabus don't stop there at all.

Are there many north - south passengers who change between coaches at Victoria eg Manchester - VCS - Southampton (bearing in mind that there are also cross-country coach routes which avoid London)? If not, then having a single coach station seems less important, and a better way might be to have one at Brent Cross for the northern services, and keep VCS for those to the south and west.

I've no idea what the figures are but a National Express driver from Kent told me most passengers on his route were going further afield from Victoria.

 

[NathanPrior]

Lewisham is also used for SE London passengers on the Kent routes.

We've also got Eltham, although the pricing structure is a bit of a **** take for us living in Eltham, say if I wanted to go to Hythe on the 22nd June (which I do), for 2 passengers from Victoria it's £10 single, but from Eltham it's £28 on the same coach. Now I really don't think that's fair as who would really want to travel into London to go back to exactly where they started from.

 

[radamfi]

We've also got Eltham, although the pricing structure is a bit of a **** take for us living in Eltham, say if I wanted to go to Hythe on the 22nd June (which I do), for 2 passengers from Victoria it's £10 single, but from Eltham it's £28 on the same coach. Now I really don't think that's fair as who would really want to travel into London to go back to exactly where they started from.

Funfare ticket conditions allow you to start or end your journey at any intermediate point apart from airports, so you could buy the ticket from Victoria. However if you don't join the coach at your specified location then you are only able to join the coach if there is room. Also, some NX drivers miss out stops with no booked passengers.

 

[Statto]

NEX Golders Green is perfect, on the way to/from the M1 with the Tube station alongside which is why NEX stop there. Victoria Coach Station could do with better bus connections to the Oxford Street part of the West End. The Circle/District Line goes under part of VCS but no tube station that connects VCS other than Victoria itself.

 

[telstarbox]

I don't think the walk between VCS and London Victoria is too bad - it's shorter than the walk between platforms at some tube stations.

 

[johnnychips]

I don't think the walk between VCS and London Victoria is too bad - it's shorter than the walk between platforms at some tube stations.

Very true. Compared to two or three Barcelona so-called tube intersections at the same station, it's tiny.

 

[tbtc]

The current set up is okay - Victoria is a lot more "central" than most London train termini (which are only "well located" because they connect to underground/ bus services). No one site is going to suit everyone.

I can't see taxpayers' money paying for a new coach station, as coaches primarily compete against the train network. I presume the coach stations built in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham etc. were paid for by National Express?

VCS, though, is a bit different as it is owned by TfL and is used by other operators. So who paid for the refurbishment 20 years ago? LT? Perhaps it is acceptable for taxpayers' money to pay for refurbishment but not relocation.

You don't want the Government to pay for things that compete with trains?

Like subsidising bus services, building roads etc?

Hardly encouraging integrated transport.

I don't think the walk between VCS and London Victoria is too bad - it's shorter than the walk between platforms at some tube stations.

True!

 

[radamfi]

You don't want the Government to pay for things that compete with trains?

Like subsidising bus services, building roads etc?

Hardly encouraging integrated transport.

Long distance coaches don't need subsidy as they already significantly undercut the trains as it is. I would approve of subsidising a network of coach services that don't compete with the railways, for example a network of coach services providing orbital links around the south east, possibly involving bus lanes on the M25, or at least allowing coaches to run on the hard shoulder during traffic jams like in the Netherlands. The Netherlands have a number of coach services which fill in the gaps in the rail network, for example Breda to Utrecht and Groningen to Lelystad.

Most western European countries don't have long distance coaches competing with trains, other than for international travel, and they are generally banned by law, although a number of routes now run to airports in Germany and I understand that we may see more domestic coach services due to liberalisation of the regulations.

Obviously local bus services are fine to subsidise as they don't generally compete with rail directly.

I don't particularly want taxpayers' money to pay for roads, other than maintenance.