Proposed Rail link to Lydd Airport

[fergusjbend]

Lydd Airport has recently obtained permission to lengthen its runway and build a new terminal building. At the moment it has no commercial passenger traffic, but its promoters want to see regular flights involving 737-sized aircraft. There is considerable doubt as to the viability of these aspirations, given the repeated failure of Manston to establish a regular service.

Now it has been suggested that there should be a rail link between Lydd and Ashford International - see http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentish_express/news/Plan-to-revive-rail-link-639/

Hopes for rail service between Lydd Airport and Ashford International Station

Hopes for a rail service between Lydd Airport and Ashford International Station could be revived now that the government has given approval to expand the airport.

A railway track, still in good condition and running straight past Lydd Airport, is ready and waiting to take passengers to Ashford.

Robin Gordon, right, who co-founded the original working group promoting this, said: “The fact that there is already a working line solves 95% of all problems in setting up a service.

“With all the confusion, regulation and government changes, now that permission is given the debate about rail access is back on the table.

“The line is still in excellent condition. This gives an opportunity to lobby for a new service.”
The line, branching from the Ashford to Hastings route, originally took passengers from Appledore to Lydd Town, Brookland, Lydd Camp, Lydd-on-Sea, Greatstone, New Romney and Littlestone.

This entire branch was closed to passengers in 1967 after a mass cull of services recommended by British Railways chairman Dr Richard Beeching.

But the line is still used as a freight route to carry spent nuclear fuel from the Dungeness power station complex to Sellafield in Cumbria for reprocessing.... (read more)

which seems like a hopeless delusion to me, even if there were enough passengers to justify it, given the fact that the line is not electrified and is single track as far as Appledore.

Any comments?

Fergus

 

[Antman]

I would have thought an hourly service wouldn't be out of the question interworked with the Marshlink service.

 

[HSTEd]

I make that 12.7km of single track to Appledore, and then 13km of double track.

Ignoring any trackwork to modify the layout at Ashford to allow trains from HS1 onto the Marshlink line, that means you will need to pay for ~39 track.km of electrification, which would cost £58m.

So I think that is out.

And an hourly service would probably be questionably useful in generating significant custom, especially since it would only go as far as Ashford.

 

[Eagle]

I would have thought an hourly service wouldn't be out of the question interworked with the Marshlink service.

But what about the hourly peak-time extras to Rye? Would you keep them or replace them with Lydd services?

 

[GatwickDepress]

I severely doubt, even if the airport became a newly-hatched Gatwick, that a rail link would be viable enough to justify the cost. A coach or minibus to Ashford International would suffice for passengers wishing to make rail connections to and from the airport.

 

[Antman]

But what about the hourly peak-time extras to Rye? Would you keep them or replace them with Lydd services?

Ideally I'd like to see 2tph throughout Marshlink one of which could run fast from Ashford to Rye and Hastings if Hamstreet and Appledore still had 2tph throughout the day.

 

[castra]

In the perfect World, I'd like to see the length of the Marshlink services extended to four carriages. (Am I correct in thinking the 171's on the Oxted route are made up of four car units?) Its been a long time since I was down that way.

The current two car units are regularly overcrowded at all times of day on this popular service, especially on the fast running part between Hastings and Brighton.

As for Lydd Expansion plans? This idea has been kicking about for years but nothing has ever come to fruition. The attraction of flying into/departing from the middle of nowhere, (unless you live in the Ashford/Hastings corridor,) isn't going to appeal to many potential passengers. The only thing that may make it attractive is a High Speed Link to London, but that is an expensive & unlikely pipedream.

 

[Bushy]

I make that 12.7km of single track to Appledore, and then 13km of double track.

Ignoring any trackwork to modify the layout at Ashford to allow trains from HS1 onto the Marshlink line, that means you will need to pay for ~39 track.km of electrification, which would cost £58m.

So I think that is out.

And an hourly service would probably be questionably useful in generating significant custom, especially since it would only go as far as Ashford.

I don't think services from HS1 to Lydd are mentioned. Without major remodelling of the country end of Ashford, I don't think it would be possible; as the current AHL connects to the main line up from the down end of the international platforms (3/4). All Marsh Link services use platforms 1 & 2. A crossing to Platforms 5 & 6, used by HS1 services, couldn't be accommodated.
Lydd Airport use a bit of 'sleight of hand' in their publicity by referring to the proximity to Ashford and 37 min services to London. Obviously a rail link might reduce the journey time, if the train times were co-ordinated with flight times but its unlikely to ever be 37 min from Lydd to London.

In the perfect World, I'd like to see the length of the Marshlink services extended to four carriages. (Am I correct in thinking the 171's on the Oxted route are made up of four car units?) Its been a long time since I was down that way.

The current two car units are regularly overcrowded at all times of day on this popular service, especially on the fast running part between Hastings and Brighton.

I think there is a 4 car 171 stop on Platform 2 at Ashford. If I remember I'll check tomorrow.

Regards

Bushy

 

[island]

I make that 12.7km of single track to Appledore, and then 13km of double track.

Ignoring any trackwork to modify the layout at Ashford to allow trains from HS1 onto the Marshlink line, that means you will need to pay for ~39 track.km of electrification, which would cost £58m.

So I think that is out.

And an hourly service would probably be questionably useful in generating significant custom, especially since it would only go as far as Ashford.

And I thought they weren't going to do any more third rail either. That's about £1m for each passenger

 

[telstarbox]

If Leeds Bradford Airport (3 million passengers in 2012) and Doncaster Sheffield (694,000) can't justify their own rail links, and both are closer to existing passenger lines, what hope is there for an airport which will be starting from a base of zero passengers tucked into a remote corner of Kent?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Lydd Airport has recently obtained permission to lengthen its runway and build a new terminal building. At the moment it has no commercial passenger traffic, but its promoters want to see regular flights involving 737-sized aircraft. There is considerable doubt as to the viability of these aspirations, given the repeated failure of Manston to establish a regular service. Now it has been suggested that there should be a rail link between Lydd and Ashford International.

Noting the figures that Network Rail can come up with when it is felt they are asked to submit their figure for a rail connection, such as the figure of £25 million that they quoted for the short link from the main line on Anglesey to Llangefni, I wonder what they would quote for the rail link suggested for this proposition ?

 

[johnnychips]

I think we will have to wait a few years before air expansion takes off again (pun intended). When Doncaster opened, fantastical projections for its growth were made: it has now settled down to a figure akin to Exeter. A recent attempt to open a flight from Shoreham to a small airport outside Paris failed. Services introduced from Oxford to Edinburgh and Dublin (all affluent areas and tourist magnets) seem to be struggling. Lydd is in the middle of nowhere, and Derek Jarman's garden isn't that much of an inbound attraction.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I severely doubt, even if the airport became a newly-hatched Gatwick, that a rail link would be viable enough to justify the cost. A coach or minibus to Ashford International would suffice for passengers wishing to make rail connections to and from the airport.

Chances are a tandem bicycle would do to transfer the passenger!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the perfect World, I'd like to see the length of the Marshlink services extended to four carriages. (Am I correct in thinking the 171's on the Oxted route are made up of four car units?) Its been a long time since I was down that way.

The Uckfield Line through Oxted uses both 4 and 2 carriage Class 171s

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at the aspirations of the airport owners, if their growth projections can be married to a reality check, we may yet see a Kentish reincarnation of Durham Tees Valley Airport...

 

[johnnychips]

Looking at the aspirations of the airport owners, if their growth projections can be married to a reality check, we may yet see a Kentish reincarnation of Durham Tees Valley Airport...

But at least they've got a well-established KLM Amsterdam service (if little else) with an obvious petrochemical raison d'etre. Perhaps a Lydd-Carlisle flyer to link Dungeness and Sellafield?

Or were you thinking of Teeside Airport station?

 

[fergusjbend]

Actually the KLM conection to Schiphol is from Manston (aka Kent International!), not Lydd (aka London Ashford!!!!!).

Fergus

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Surely Kent International is more justifiable in getting a station than Lydd? Especially as the line runs about half a mile from the airport (plus SE could then stop people using Minster to Dover/Canterbury tickets via Ramsgate. Plus it could mean the SE services avoiding Minster to Sandwich have somewhere to stop

 

[SprinterMan]

I would love this to happen, but it won't. It just won't. Why open a station at the end of a barely used freight only branch that will serve a village and an airport that would kill for Shippea Hill's passenger numbers, and then give it a service to somewhere with a Eurostar terminal. Lydd is a lovely little place, but the economics of it make no sense at all. It would be more cost effective to throw handfuls of burning money at Lydd Airport than actually invest in it at this time. If people want to reintroduce passenger service on lines that only exist because of nuclear power stations, may I suggest Leiston. It is a much bigger town than Lydd, and the station is still there.

Adam

 

[Antman]

I would love this to happen, but it won't. It just won't. Why open a station at the end of a barely used freight only branch that will serve a village and an airport that would kill for Shippea Hill's passenger numbers, and then give it a service to somewhere with a Eurostar terminal. Lydd is a lovely little place, but the economics of it make no sense at all. It would be more cost effective to throw handfuls of burning money at Lydd Airport than actually invest in it at this time. If people want to reintroduce passenger service on lines that only exist because of nuclear power stations, may I suggest Leiston. It is a much bigger town than Lydd, and the station is still there.

Adam

You're probably right but I'd have thought an hourly two car service to Ashford would carry reasonable numbers.

 

[pablo]

Surely this is a case for bustitution? Lydd has struggled since the days of Silver City Airways.

 

[Eagle]

You're probably right but I'd have thought an hourly two car service to Ashford would carry reasonable numbers.

Serving only Hamstreet, Appledore and Lydd? I don't see how those three villages could fill a train every hour on their own.

 

[NathanPrior]

Serving only Hamstreet, Appledore and Lydd? I don't see how those three villages could fill a train every hour on their own.

I've seen quite a few people get on at Appledore on my journeys from Rye to Ashford. If they could re-route it via Camber then that would be excellent :roll:

 

[JamesRowden]

Surely this is a case for bustitution? Lydd has struggled since the days of Silver City Airways.

Bus services from Hastings/Rye, Ashford/HamStreet and Dover/Folkestone already run very close to the Airport (~half a mile). If the Airport needed better public transport connections then these bus routes could serve the airport.

 

[pablo]

Bus services from Hastings/Rye, Ashford/HamStreet and Dover/Folkestone already run very close to the Airport (~half a mile). If the Airport needed better public transport connections then these bus routes could serve the airport.

There ye are then. Sorted. Just like the Doctor ordered .... all those years ago!

 

[mister-sparky]

not going to happen for at least 50 years. probably more. passenger numbers just don't justify it. If things like Leeds-Bradford Airport, western chords for Manchester and Heathrow etc etc don't justify costs, then this certainly doesn't.

 

[Eagle]

I've seen quite a few people get on at Appledore on my journeys from Rye to Ashford.

Enough to warrant a whole extra train every hour? :roll:

 

[paul1609]

I don't think services from HS1 to Lydd are mentioned. Without major remodelling of the country end of Ashford, I don't think it would be possible; as the current AHL connects to the main line up from the down end of the international platforms (3/4). All Marsh Link services use platforms 1 & 2. A crossing to Platforms 5 & 6, used by HS1 services, couldn't be accommodated.
Lydd Airport use a bit of 'sleight of hand' in their publicity by referring to the proximity to Ashford and 37 min services to London. Obviously a rail link might reduce the journey time, if the train times were co-ordinated with flight times but its unlikely to ever be 37 min from Lydd to London.



I think there is a 4 car 171 stop on Platform 2 at Ashford. If I remember I'll check tomorrow.


Regards

Bushy

One of the early morning services to Ashford is formed of 2 X 2 car 171s it then devides there to form a service to Brighton and the Rye-Ashford Shuttle for the morning peak. Most of the Marshlink stations cant take a 4 car unit. Some (ham street for instance)can take 3 cars) 171s have manually selected door opening for this purpose. There are signs on some of the platforms telling the guard which mode to select.

i commute on the line regularly, whilst there are occasions when the trains are full, (summer traffic to Pontins at Camber Bay or events at Rye).
2 cars on the Marshlink proper is okay Rye the biggest town between Hastings only has a population of 3,600, 3 cars would be ample, the overcrowding issue is really on the Brighton to Hastings section

 

[NathanPrior]

Enough to warrant a whole extra train every hour? :roll:

Trains being every half hour/hour on that route is really annoying, so yes, an extra one wouldn't go a miss.

A bit like the Southern service from Victoria that runs as far as Ore but not up to Rye, why that happens I don't know, it's not really useful terminating at Ore.

 

[Eagle]

It's time to dust off the age-old Rail UK litmus question:

Where are you going to find the extra stock for that?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Trains being every half hour/hour on that route is really annoying, so yes, an extra one wouldn't go a miss.

A bit like the Southern service from Victoria that runs as far as Ore but not up to Rye, why that happens I don't know, it's not really useful terminating at Ore.

Does the electricity run out at Ore?