New Cross Country

[devon_metro]

I agree with Tom, I pay to sit down and not have the facility of food on board which will still be there regardless.

 

[Tom]

You actually pay for the travel and not for the seat but thats beyond the fact of discussing it. If you did a survey at a train station with busy Voyager trains going through constantly, if you asked them on a normal day if they'd rather have a seat or OTT buffet facilities I can bet you 9/10 people would say that they want a seat.

Pretty much all stations where Voyagers call have buffet facilities on the station or nearby anyway. :roll:

 

[voyagerdude220]

When I first opened this thread with my post about New XC, I didn't expect it to have 122 (including this post) replies!

Anyway.. Looking at the VT website, at the current VT1 timetable, it states that it will run between This May, and the beginning of December.

If so, when do Arriva take VXC over?

Am i right in thinking that the new timetable, removing VXC from Crewe to Glasgow, and having a hourly Manchester to Bristol service, will start from 11 November THIS year?

Does anyone know If the New XC franchise will still feature Value advance singles, as well as the print @ home tickets which have been mentioned on thre XC trains website?

 

[87015]

New franchises start Nov 11th, new timetables 9th December. So one month of the old franchise operating services on behalf of the new one, or some shambles like that!

 

[me123]

New franchises start Nov 11th, new timetables 9th December. So one month of the old franchise operating services on behalf of the new one, or some shambles like that!

I think it's a good idea; it lets the new owners get used to operating the original service before their own TT starts, like a month induction.

I'll miss Virgin XC, I have to say, but I'm looking forward to seeing Arriva's efforts.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'll miss Virgin XC, I have to say, but I'm looking forward to seeing Arriva's efforts.

I'm going to really miss VXC, but overall, I look forward to the hourly Manchester to Bristol service, as this will reduce the need for my Dad to change at Birmingham whenever he does this journey every so often, on busy Friday evenings. (And also when I do the journey myself, normally on weekdays)

I also look forward to better FC catering (If i decide to continue travelingl FC when Arriva take over XC), but I'd prefer the shop to remain as it is, and dread to think what a heavily used Voyager will be like, with the trolley stuck at one end of the train..

As i've said before, I really like VT hot food, and don't like the idea of a trolley service at all. I've seen the problems it can cause on a reasonably busy 158, so a full Voyager.....

 

[Lewisham2221]

YIf you did a survey at a train station with busy Voyager trains going through constantly, if you asked them on a normal day if they'd rather have a seat or OTT buffet facilities I can bet you 9/10 people would say that they want a seat.

Maybe so, and if push came to shove and I had to make a choice I'd go for a seat. However, as it's going to be almost as likely as it currently is that I won't be able to get a seat, I'd rather keep half-decent catering facilities.

Or I suppose I could take the other option....

• Purchase AP ticket with seat reservation.
• Board train and find that, despite having a seat reservation, somebody is sitting in my seat.
• After politely confronting the person in my seat, get told to sod off, and, unable to find the train manager, take a 'seat' in the vestibule. (But not the FC one mind )
• Get a bit peckish and, upon advice from others, leave the train at the next station to grab a bite to eat.
• Realise that the station where I have alighted has no catering facilities.
• Go to wait for next train, realising at the same time that the next train isn't for another 2 hours.
• After the 2 hour wait, with only the musical accompaniment of my rumbling stomach for entertainment, board the next train.
• Upon a ticket check by TM, get apprehended for boarding the wrong train, at the wrong station with my advance purchase ticket.
• Pay appropriate SOS fare for my journey, before, still hungry, finding another 'seat' in a vestibule.
• Perk up abit as I spot the trolley service passing through the adjacent coach.
• Feel my heart sink again (and my stomach rumble), as I realise that I no longer have enough cash to purchase anything other than a packet of crisps.
• Feel my heart sink even further (and hear my stomach rumble even louder), when I discover that the trolley has sold out of crisps.
• Eventually arrive at my destination, 2 hours late, lots of money poorer, and still f***ing hungry.

Erm, yeah, Ok. :thumbup:

 

[yorkie]

Say there are 150 seats on a train, if you add 15 to that at the expense of the buffet, then you are only gaining anything if 151+ people board. You can only really benefit up to 15 people and the other 150 suffer a lack of facility as a result. If 250 people board, then it's neither here nor there.

First class should be reduced - it's disportionate. I've been on trains that have been very busy (shoulder peak toward Brum) in standard but empty in FC. This is because all the business people have gone earlier (no cheaper to go later) and no cheap upgrades are available. That is madness.

On Sunday I got the 15:25 Plymouth-York, and when I went to the buffet (just after Newport) the queue was pretty long. There is no way I would agree to do such a journey with no catering. We were due York 22:36, but arrived 78 late due to signalling problems caused by severe weather in the Clay Cross area. 15:25 to midnight without food? No thanks. It was bad enough being without food from Cheltenham onwards!

It was a great and comfy journey on an HST, but as Virgin are not prepared to have InterCity-standard trains operating apart from during weekends at Summer, they simply had to go for that decision alone.

 

[Tom]

First class should be reduced - it's disportionate. I've been on trains that have been very busy (shoulder peak toward Brum) in standard but empty in FC. This is because all the business people have gone earlier (no cheaper to go later) and no cheap upgrades are available. That is madness.

The issue is that the TOC have to create a balance between all times of the day - in the off peak FC is always quiet, in the peak it will be busy.... the real way to do it would be in the same way as the airlines - being able to modify seating arrangements per flight.

 

[yorkie]

At the end of the day, it doesn't take much brainpower to realise that, on the core section having 2x 4/5 car trains per hour is not going to really increase capacity compared to 1x7 car train per hour. Before you say "But that's 1-3 extra cars per hour", bear in mind you fit a LOT LESS people into a Voyager coach than a Mk3.

The whole concept was totally and utterly fundamentally flawed. But this "solution" does not address the real issue which is a lack of coaching stock. How much will it cost to do all these mods (Including the hidden costs of having trains out of service or short-formed sets)? I bet they could lease an extra train for less money, and not annoy their customers in the process..

 

[theblackwatch]

The issue is that the TOC have to create a balance between all times of the day - in the off peak FC is always quiet, in the peak it will be busy.... the real way to do it would be in the same way as the airlines - being able to modify seating arrangements per flight.

VXC is certainly 'first class heavy'. The biggest demand for FC has always been to London, hence the formation of 'Pullman' sets with 3 or 4 First Class vehicles on GWML/ECML/WCML in BR days. Historically, demand has been low on Cross Country routes as it is not a route frequented by such large numbers of business people, and traditionally a 7 or 8 coach train would have one FC coach on it - the HSTs which ran over the route for 20 years were formed with one TF, a TRSB, 4 TS and a TGS, giving a total seating capacity of 48F/402S providing ample FC accommodation at just over 10% of the total seating on the train (and at weekends, half of that coach would often become a 'bargain first' vehicle, sit in FC for an extra £1!).

Fast forward to the Voyager generation and we have 39 4-car units with 14% of capacity as FC and the same number of 5-car units at just over 10% (roughly the same as an HST) - so around half of the fleet now has more First Class than in HST days.

 

[VTDan]

I agree FC in many Voyagers is empty however at peak times and busy services standard class ticket holders just go and sit where they please. There has been countless times trains have been delayed due to arguing about who should sit where. I think if FC is going to be on a train, keep it FC. Dont let standard class ticket holders use it. FC passengers have paid for a FC ticket for a reason.

I do hope Arriva do what they say they will and have longer voyager trains!
I think this would solve so many problems all round!!

 

[Andrew]

Well seeing as everyone else is moaning, I may as well too .

I'm looking forward to seeing what Arriva can do. IMO more seating is more important than the shop. And I'd agree about reducing the amount of first class. Hopefully the HSTs will operate the really long services that need buffets (I assume the HSTs will have buffets? - if they find any spare HST vehicles to run at all!)

Also to mention that in general I've been lead to believe that railway catering doesn't make a profit (I've no idea if this is true or not, but I can believe that it is - FGW have reduced and are further reducing their catering and they need all the money they can get!). In which case it's easy to see where Arriva are coming from - why waste space with something non-profit-making when you can fill it with seats.

 

[332 > 444]

It was a great and comfy journey on an HST, but as Virgin are not prepared to have InterCity-standard trains operating apart from during weekends at Summer, they simply had to go for that decision alone.

I been thinking something similar to that, my thoughts were VXC and MML have 4/5 car trains on intercity routes, been on a four car unit from both companies and they were full (got a chance to ride in declassified 1st class though) Maybe they both got booted for insufficient space on high demand and growing routes.

I was also on a Pendo the other day and if the queues on VWC buffets are anything to go by, removing it completely is a big mistake. What about a M's Bar variant on the voyagers as they are not so big.

 

[AlexS]

*shrug* Bringing HST vs Voyager into this is no good - I've been on some incredibly doggy HSTs at times where for some reason the coaches were vibrating more than voyagers - leg room is also not particularly great, especially on MML sets, the toilets are fairly grotty and the powercars keep doing the dying duck.

That said, I've also had a very pleasant return journey from Birmingham to Edinburgh on a voyager. And a very horrible one from Bristol to Birmingham on a summer saturday.

As for removing the shop, surely if the trolley can't get through the train, you just go and find the trolley? If that's not possible then it wouldn't be possible to get to the shop, either.

 

[devon_metro]

Well seeing as everyone else is moaning, I may as well too .

I'm looking forward to seeing what Arriva can do. IMO more seating is more important than the shop. And I'd agree about reducing the amount of first class. Hopefully the HSTs will operate the really long services that need buffets (I assume the HSTs will have buffets? - if they find any spare HST vehicles to run at all!)

Also to mention that in general I've been lead to believe that railway catering doesn't make a profit (I've no idea if this is true or not, but I can believe that it is - FGW have reduced and are further reducing their catering and they need all the money they can get!). In which case it's easy to see where Arriva are coming from - why waste space with something non-profit-making when you can fill it with seats.

There will be plenty of buffet coaches left if FGW continue with their plan to remove buffets between London and Bristol/Cardiff.

Perhaps the most stupid move ever this being after all these trains always get good loadings and I imagine First Class is popular!

 

[virginjon]

The idea of ripping the shops out as now been scrapped, because Bombardier won't let Arriva do it to their Voyagers.

 

[djw1981]

They are Angel Trains voyagers, not Bombadiers... Do Ford tell you you can't rip the seats out your galaxy and use it as a van?

 

[Lewisham2221]

They are Angel Trains voyagers, not Bombadiers... Do Ford tell you you can't rip the seats out your galaxy and use it as a van?

No, but they could refuse to maintain them if they are modified in any way from the original specification; which I suspect is possibly the case here.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I notice that Arriva claim that they are going to work to improve mobile phone reception on Voyagers. Funny that Virgin already appear to be doing it! Either Arriva aren't on the ball, or Virgin decided to beat them to it to give Arriva less to shout about.

 

[Mojo]

Virgin's system is a trial, with a single mobile network.

Perhaps Arriva are saying it's definitely going to happen, or that it would be extended to other networks?

 

[Tom]

orange is the mobile phone network Virgin are working with - but I've noticed that o2 coverage has significantly increased on Voyagers since the trial came in so it could be across network. I can't see orange being able to filter out other networks though.

 

[AlexS]

Orange coverage was crud on Friday, couldn't get a signal at all between Birmingham and Derby - although admittedly the train was running via Lichfield and Alrewas, which is in the sticks a bit!