• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Fastest Train To... vs Departures By Service

Status
Not open for further replies.

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,309
Location
Bolton
Since its refurbishment a number of years ago now, Manchester Piccadilly has been equipped with a very large blue board which lists the station's direct departures over the next ~30 mins, in order of which arrives first at the station listed even if this is not the first departure, this will be listed top in that group of stations (or possibly, whichever has the shortest journeytime, I'm not totally sure). All the other information you would expect is also there, plus the final destination of the train (although, it does have the rather odd quirk of adding any additional information, such as 'Via Manchester Airport' or 'Local Stopping Service' or 'Req. Stop' to the TOC column). Here's a photo:

20130502_074158.jpg


So, my question is, are there any other stations that use this as the primary form of communicating platform information to passengers on the concourse? Apart from screens on the platforms themselves (which do face the concourse so you can see them through the glass) and the simple list of departures, which is only really useful to the public if they know already what time their train is, this is all Piccadilly has. It's never been a 'problem' per se, because its exceptionally rare for any train to have made it onto the departure board without a platform showing, but I'm intrigued: other large or Network Rail managed stations that I know of all use the list of departing trains by time, with all their calling stations listed under them, usually moving to the left or right as the trains depart. Think of Lime St and Leeds, and the very large vertical lists at Euston and King's Cross, as well as Waterloo, Glasgow Central, London Bridge and the new ones at New Street. St Pancras is just weird (although it looks like they used the same blue screens). Which type do you prefer? Why was the apparently successful formula changed in Manchester? Note that I'm not saying Fastest Train To or 'A to Z departures' boards don't have a place in communicating information, just that I cannot think of another location where they are the main form of information presented. Perhaps Clapham Junction? But that is very different to Manchester Piccadilly! What do you think?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
6,381
Location
Wennington Crossovers
The A-Z board is a great idea for a station with either a lot of departures or one with trains to a high number of destinations - Piccadilly falls into both of these categories.

When a passenger walks into a busy station, they generally want to find out either:
- "When's the next train to Stockport?" - so they look for Stockport on the A-Z; or
- "I'm booked on the 1430 to Bristol - where is it?" - so they look for Bristol on the A-Z and then see "Bristol 1430 - Platform 7 - CrossCountry Trains".

In the first case, it saves passengers scanning 14 different boards to see which is the first departure to Stockport.

In the second case, passengers don't need to know the final destination of their train to be sure it's the right one. For example, if you're going from Piccadilly to Stoke your train could be on the boards for London Euston, Stoke, Bristol, Bournemouth, etc.

Some of the busiest stations combine the two systems:
- Clapham Junction has a normal departures board, and at the bottom there are separate displays for "Next train to London Waterloo" and "Next train to Victoria".
- Victoria has a normal departures board, and one of the screens shows the next trains to East Croydon, Brighton and other popular destinations.

If a Victoria-style departures board was used at Piccadilly, it might not give passengers time to reach Platforms 13 and 14 because these platforms have a high throughput of trains. The A-Z is therefore better in this regard too.
 
Last edited:

pjnathanail

Member
Joined
1 Sep 2012
Messages
391
Location
Loughborough
The A-Z board is a great idea for a station with a high frequency of departures. When a passenger walks into the station, they generally want to find out either:
- "When's the next train to Stockport?" - so they look for Stockport on the A-Z; or
- "I'm booked on the 1430 to Bristol - where is it?" - so they look for Bristol on the A-Z and then see "Bristol 1430 - Platform 7 - CrossCountry Trains".

In the first case, it saves passengers scanning 14 different boards to see which is the first departure to Stockport.

In the second case, passengers don't need to know the final destination of their train to be sure it's the right one. For example, if you're going from Piccadilly to Stoke your train could be on the boards for London Euston, Stoke, Bristol, Bournemouth, etc.

Although if I turn up at 1330 for my train, it might show Bristol 1400 - Platform 7 - CrossCountry Trains and not know where the 1430 is. Perhaps both systems should be used.
 

tsr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
7,400
Location
Between the parallel lines
Some of the busiest stations combine the two systems:
- Clapham Junction has a normal departures board, and at the bottom there are separate displays for "Next train to London Waterloo" and "Next train to Victoria".
- Victoria has a normal departures board, and one of the screens shows the next trains to East Croydon, Brighton and other popular destinations.

Although if I turn up at 1330 for my train, it might show Bristol 1400 - Platform 7 - CrossCountry Trains and not know where the 1430 is. Perhaps both systems should be used.

East Croydon and Redhill also have both systems in use, for example, although the system at Redhill is always slightly out of sync in terms of how late any delayed trains are (the staff inform me that this is a known problem but they are having a bit of difficulty getting Southern to fix it, as it's not a high priority because it's not hugely misleading - or so I'm told).
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
6,381
Location
Wennington Crossovers
Although if I turn up at 1330 for my train, it might show Bristol 1400 - Platform 7 - CrossCountry Trains and not know where the 1430 is. Perhaps both systems should be used.

This is true, but the board says it usually displays trains departing in the next 30 minutes. It does show more than one train at once for some stations.
 

Caertroia

Member
Joined
7 Oct 2010
Messages
44
London Bridge has one on the overbridge and another above the gateline to platforms 1-6
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,309
Location
Bolton
This is true, but the board says it usually displays trains departing in the next 30 minutes. It does show more than one train at once for some stations.

Certainly does! I know you can't really see it, but there are actually 5 departures for "Stockport" in the photo above. This demonstrates my point about priority too, if there is a stopping train to stockport leaving 5-10 mins before a non-stopping one, the fastest one will appear above the stopper in the list, even though it has a later departure time.
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
Even smaller stations have them, such as Salisbury which has a small one (about 30 destinations) in the concourse and a large one (about 60) on platform 2/3 right above the subway entrance.

It's certainly useful, even if it did confuse my dad who when confronted with it said "why are there so many trains departing at 14.47?" :lol:
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,493
Location
Yorkshire
Certainly does! I know you can't really see it, but there are actually 5 departures for "Stockport" in the photo above. This demonstrates my point about priority too, if there is a stopping train to stockport leaving 5-10 mins before a non-stopping one, the fastest one will appear above the stopper in the list, even though it has a later departure time.

5 years of passing through Manchester Piccadilly, and I have never realised that this is how those boards worked!

That said, it may be because there surely can't be many services that get overtaken en-route, bar the Stockport stoppers and maybe Romiley services (depending which route they take), that I can think of
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
That said, it may be because there surely can't be many services that get overtaken en-route, bar the Stockport stoppers and maybe Romiley services (depending which route they take), that I can think of

Possibly destinations where there are two or more routes to get there and so one could 'overtake' the other by virtue of being on a different line? Examples being Liverpool and Sheffield in this case.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,706
Location
Nottingham
Good idea in principle but (like most CIS sytems) let down by the implementation. You can see on the OP photo that only stations Liverpool-Z are visible and every 10s or so it swaps to show the first half of the alphabet, with a seconds or so of blank before it refreshes. I usually find I'm just about to locate the station I want when it disappears, so I just refer to the small orange LED screen facing the entrance that shows the next few departures (I know which train I'm aiming to catch in any case).

I have the same problem with the screens that swap between pages 1 and 2 of 2, though as there is less information on the screen I find I get more chance to find what I want. In both cases the screen needs to hold all the information without scrolling, which in the case of the OP would make the installation overpoweringly big or the text too small to be legible.

I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks this. Despite never being diagnosed dyslexic I've always struggled at little with looking things up in a dictionary.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
5,653
They're putting it in at Brighton as part of the remodelling of the gateline and main area - should make a decent difference.

Especially the journeys with 3+ pages of stations, like slows to Bedford or along the Coastways, with everywhere suffixed 'on Sea' it makes it quite long. Now people can just look for their station, much better.
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
They're putting it in at Brighton as part of the remodelling of the gateline and main area - should make a decent difference.

Although I noticed that the old mechanical board that's still there had a next-fastest display, with just three destinations: Gatwick, East Croydon and London Victoria.
 

43074

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2012
Messages
2,253
I've not been to Manchester Piccadilly recently (last went on the 'Rio' in 2003/4), but does the board show every station you can go to on a direct train, or only principal stations? Seems a good idea tbh.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
4,005
Location
St Neots
I much much prefer the A-Z style... in principle.

However, the setup at Piccadilly is a trio of boards in a triangle around and above the information kiosk. So what it actually comprises, is A-I, J-R & S-Z, which continually rotate so that each board gets to display each group in turn.

Maybe the timings are wrong, or maybe the idea is poor in practice, but every time I use it, I seem to just get screwed by the transition, and by the time I walk around to the next screen where my info is, it will have changed again, so I end up standing there waiting when I could be catching my train.

Having said that, it's still very good. It would just be even better (outstanding, even) if they moved the boards to one continuous array, above the platform doors.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,348
As I understand it, both boards (I thought there were only two?) actually display the same thing as the same time.

They don't 'rotate'.
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
Actually one downside is that they only show direct services and can't advise you when it would be quicker to change somewhere. Such as the one at Salisbury; I could see confused passengers waiting two and a half hours for the next advertised direct train to Cheltenham, when in reality they should have got the next train to Bristol and change there.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
4,005
Location
St Neots
As I understand it, both boards (I thought there were only two?) actually display the same thing as the same time.

They don't 'rotate'.

Come to think of it, I can't ever remember using the 'third side' of the triangle, so it may just be a 'chevron' instead. They have certainly rotated every time I've looked at them, but they might switch to simultaneous if all the day's remaining departures would fit on one board.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,309
Location
Bolton
Let's get this straight :) There are indeed only two sides to the board. I should have mentioned this earlier. The third is covered in Network Rail's posters: "Welcome to Manchester Piccadilly" I think. It also does indeed rotate between the two 'faces' of the screen. So the picture at the top represents half of the departures currently on the board. It seems to me that every station is indeed listed, with duplicate stations dropping off if there are odd additions that only come up every now and then; 'Yorton' 'Prees' and 'Wem' are examples. To the point about finding it difficult to search for your station, yes that can be annoying and it does change around, but whatever you do, DON'T walk around to the next screen, because by the time you get there it will have changed again! Just stay and wait! I personally prefer this setup to most any alternative because its large enough that its easy to read (at least, it was when it was new, nowadays its fading a bit in places!) and yet still fits on a mammoth list of stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As I understand it, both boards (I thought there were only two?) actually display the same thing as the same time.

They don't 'rotate'.
See above :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Come to think of it, I can't ever remember using the 'third side' of the triangle, so it may just be a 'chevron' instead. They have certainly rotated every time I've looked at them, but they might switch to simultaneous if all the day's remaining departures would fit on one board.

The latest I've been there is about 11 at night, yet even then, 5 1/2 of the 8 available boards were still filled.

Further to other destinations for overtaken trains, I can't remember now but think it might also happen with Wilmslow and Crewe? It would have to be an odd situation where the next train to Lime Street isn't the fastest one though wouldn't it? I can't check atm, so from memory there are 3tph to Lime St from 14? 1 EMT exNottingham/Norwich 1 TPE ex York/Scrabrough and 1 Northern ex Airport and via Newton-le-Willows? Surely the latter couldn't be overtaken by the former or vice versa?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually one downside is that they only show direct services and can't advise you when it would be quicker to change somewhere. Such as the one at Salisbury; I could see confused passengers waiting two and a half hours for the next advertised direct train to Cheltenham, when in reality they should have got the next train to Bristol and change there.

Very true, but then standard boards can't do this either, unless a special message 'Change at X for services to Y' is added to them - and when long messages like this are added, it sometimes buggers up this blue board (because as I said, it seems to put them in the 'TOC' column)!
 
Last edited:

Thomas6187

Member
Joined
27 May 2011
Messages
444
Location
Rochdale
There are actually 5 departures for "Stockport" in the photo above.

Places like Stockport, Oxford Road, Crewe, Wilmslow and Liverpool show the next train for each individual TOC. So if you look at say xx14 past the hour it will show the EMT xx43 service even before the several Northern appear on the board.
 

dcsprior

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2012
Messages
862
Location
Edinburgh (Fri-Mon) & London (Tue-Thu)
Victoria has a normal departures board, and one of the screens shows the next trains to East Croydon, Brighton and other popular destinations.

If a Victoria-style departures board was used at Piccadilly, it might not give passengers time to reach Platforms 13 and 14 because these platforms have a high throughput of trains. The A-Z is therefore better in this regard too.

One of the Croydons (East Croydon, possibly?) has a "Fastest Train to" board

London Victoria does have both normal & next-fastest, but for each half of the station (i.e. one above the South-Eastern ticket gates showing only their trains, and one above Burger King showing southern trains) - the Southern one suffers from the problem that the next-quickest train can be from a platform you'll not reach before departure. Whereas the East Croydon one shows the next 3 departures to Victoria, and I think the same to London Bridge too - which is quite an improvement though its placement isn't the best for people entering through the corridor underneath it.
 

Crossover

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Messages
9,493
Location
Yorkshire
The latest I've been there is about 11 at night, yet even then, 5 1/2 of the 8 available boards were still filled.

I have caught the 23:42 TPE to the North off Man Picc before and I seem to recall there been a fair few things on the boards even then. There again, I was trying to do any "enthusing" on the quiet as I was with a work colleague :P

Places like Stockport, Oxford Road, Crewe, Wilmslow and Liverpool show the next train for each individual TOC. So if you look at say xx14 past the hour it will show the EMT xx43 service even before the several Northern appear on the board.

Oxford Road is confusing! IIRC, it shows next train on each platform as the first board you see, rather than a list of all departures. Certainly confused a couple of us last time we were there waiting for a train.

Whereas the East Croydon one shows the next 3 departures to Victoria, and I think the same to London Bridge too - which is quite an improvement though its placement isn't the best for people entering through the corridor underneath it.

Having spoken with starmill, I have confirmed it was East Croydon I was thinking of, thanks to remembering the location of the Upper Crust on the concourse! It was a few years since I was there now, but I remembered it having never really seen a board like it before!
 

dvboy

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
2,039
Location
Birmingham
At BHM now we have touch screens where you can press one of 12 popular destinations or type in any other and it will show you a list of the next trains to that destination.
 

Searle

Established Member
Joined
4 May 2012
Messages
1,580
Location
Ladbroke Grove
Pretty sure both East Croydon and Watford Junction have this too, along with the normal boards
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
27,309
Location
Bolton
Having spoken with starmill, I have confirmed it was East Croydon I was thinking of, thanks to remembering the location of the Upper Crust on the concourse! It was a few years since I was there now, but I remembered it having never really seen a board like it before!

Pretty sure both East Croydon and Watford Junction have this too, along with the normal boards

East Croydon has come up a few times now....

notrains.jpg


This is what I remember from there. Destinations stickered on and departures listed on LEDs next to them.... Bit sceptical of this tbh because I seem to remember most of the destinations had this message about checking timetables on them! Also, is Wolverhampton on there? There hasn't been a regular direct service between those two for years has there!? Also, is there anywhere else where RED is used on departure screens?
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
XC services from Croydon stopped later than King's Cross Thameslink closed (Dec 2008 versus Dec 2007). The board clearly predates both of them. Does it have any WCML stations north of Watford?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top