Blaenau Festiniog Slate Waste?

[HSTEd]

Well I have repeatedly read reports that are nearly seven hundred million tonnes of slate waste rock scattered around various quarries in the vicinity of Blaenau Festiniog.

I have also repeatedly read that this rock would be useful in the Severn Estuary for barrage/dyke construction in connection with tidal power or simply poldering as much of the Estuary as possible.

The question in that case becomes, assuming such a project is undertaken, how does one move that much rock across Wales?
It is too far for a conveyer system and attempting to ship around the coast via Barge looks to be fraught with difficulties, so the only option really is rail transport, presumably to a new terminal constructed somewhere near Llanwit Major or Barry (depending on what project is actually being built).

Is there sufficient rail capacity to cope with what would probably have to be several long, heavy trains a day? (Double Class 70 heavy even? if you attempt the tidal lagoon concept instead of a simple barrage). Especially since reopening a direct North-South Wales link line to carry the traffic is rendered untenable by the line to Bala from the Vale of Conwy being under a reservoir now.

So anyone got anything?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From what I understand, the Conway Valley line from Blaenau Festiniog up to the Chester and Holyhead Railway line had its primary purpose as the transportation of slate from the quarries to a specially constructed quay at Deganwy to enable the slate products to be exported by sea.

 

[Chris125]

At least one trial run of slate waste was run from Blaenau a few years back, but if i remember correctly it wasn't considered viable. Perhaps if there was a major scheme like a barrage, or construction activity picks up again, that might change.

Chris

 

[krus_aragon]

There's a summary of the slate train trials (with pictures) here.

From what I understand, the Conway Valley line from Blaenau Festiniog up to the Chester and Holyhead Railway line had its primary purpose as the transportation of slate from the quarries to a specially constructed quay at Deganwy to enable the slate products to be exported by sea.

It might be arguable whether the CHR's original Conway and Llanrwst railway (and later Betws y Coed extension) were eyeing up slate or not, but certainly the extension up the from Betws up the Lledr valley and under the mountain was definitely a charge by the LNWR for the slate traffic.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

It was a real shame that the use of slate waste was not considered viable - time to look at it again? (Slightly) tongue in cheek here.....probably works out cheaper to import from Spain or Chile!

 

[Holly]

... Blaenau Festiniog.

I have also repeatedly read that this rock would be useful in the Severn Estuary for barrage/dyke construction in connection with tidal power or simply poldering as much of the Estuary as possible. ...

The most obvious route is by rail from Blaenau to Liverpool docks and then by sea to the construction site. Liverpool docks already has the necessary bulk mineral loading/unloading equipment.

 

[Liam]

attempting to ship around the coast via Barge looks to be fraught with difficulties

What difficulties? If they are going to build the barrage, the rocks will have to move by sea eventually, when they dump them into the middle of the Severn. You can also move a lot more by sea than rail, even if rail is quicker. Yeoman aggregates owned Yeoman Bridge, which regularly operates from Glensanda super quarry can carry 97,000 tonnes of granite, and thats not a particularly big ship in world terms.

 

[johnnychips]

Anecdotally, I heard it was cheaper to build/renew North Sea defences by shipping granite direct by ship from a Norwegian island quarry than by sourcing rock from any British quarry. However, large boulders were needed, so I'm not sure if this is relevant to using slate as any infill.

 

[Liam]

Anecdotally, I heard it was cheaper to build/renew North Sea defences by shipping granite direct by ship from a Norwegian island quarry than by sourcing rock from any British quarry. However, large boulders were needed, so I'm not sure if this is relevant to using slate as any infill.

Doesn't surprise me at all, the cost of transporting goods by sea is surprisingly cheap. On a small scale, you can send a container to Australia for less than the first class air fare. Generally the more you ship, the better the value.

 

[johnnychips]

Doesn't surprise me at all, the cost of transporting goods by sea is surprisingly cheap. On a small scale, you can send a container to Australia for less than the first class air fare. Generally the more you ship, the better the value.

Following that:

It seems very unlikely that the Severn Barrage will be built owing to its high capital cost and environmental impact, despite the fact a double barrage could provide 10% of Britain's electricity. (Mind you, I never thought the Berlin Wall would fall!)

Given that, any bolstering of existing sea defences would need much larger rocks than slate, so it's back to Norway for the granite. I know you can have large lumps of slate, but most of the quarry waste at Blaenau isn't like that.

 

[unlevel42]

The N Wales coast has a history of quarrying granite, slate and limestone- the export of which was overwhelmingly by sea (fed by narrow gauge rail) rather than rail.
There are/have been rail and ship facilities for handling bulk at Llysfaen, Penmaenmawr, Bangor(Port Penrhyn), Holyhead and Mostyn.

The export of slate waste has been considered on environmental and tax friendly grounds.
The front runner has been the removal of waste from the much bigger slate quarries at Bethesda and Llanberis to Port Penrhyn for transhipment to ship or rail (reinstate short spur).

The largest ships could use Holyhead with its 24hour deep water harbour, available space and much quicker rail connections. Liverpool does not offer a viable alternative.

Holyhead would be accessible from BF.
Use WHR for Nantlle slate waste?

 

[Holly]

Given that, any bolstering of existing sea defences would need much larger rocks than slate, so it's back to Norway for the granite. I know you can have large lumps of slate, but most of the quarry waste at Blaenau isn't like that.

The proposed Cardiff sea lagoon, if built, would require huge amounts of rocks of many different sizes for the various layers of skin. Including, yes, very large rocks that are too large to have been quarry waste. But smaller ones as well.
Quarry waste could indeed be part of the solution, but only part.

 

[Prairie_5542]

What about using the Ffestiniog Railway. To transport the waste slate to Porthmadog, to a ship. After all this is why it was built in the first place to transport slate from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Porthmadog. Or even re-instate the transfer sidings at Minffordd to offload the wagons onto the Minffordd to Shrewsbury line for Cardiff.

 

[Chris125]

What about using the Ffestiniog Railway. To transport the waste slate to Porthmadog, to a ship. After all this is why it was built in the first place to transport slate from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Porthmadog. Or even re-instate the transfer sidings at Minffordd to offload the wagons onto the Minffordd to Shrewsbury line for Cardiff.

Given the initial investment needed to buy or have built sufficient suitable rolling stock, the limited loads that could be carried per train, the absence of a suitable discharge point at Porthmadog and the potential impact on the line of intensive use by freight trains it's highly unlikely to be viable.

I don't think there can be any doubt that running standard gauge freight trains up the Conwy Valley would be far more practical and a lot more cost effective.

Chris

 

[HSTEd]

I keep thinking a standard gauge connection between Trawsfynydd and somewhere like Porthmadog would be good.... but finding an alignment that doesn't require huge viaducts/tunnels would be very difficult.

Pity.

It appears sea transport from the North Coast of wales has it.

 

[snowball]

Given that, any bolstering of existing sea defences would need much larger rocks than slate, so it's back to Norway for the granite. I know you can have large lumps of slate, but most of the quarry waste at Blaenau isn't like that.

When the A55 was built past Penmaenmawr, the promenade was extended seawards to compensate for the land lost to the road. This needed new sea defences. Amazingly they were unable to source most of the rock locally, and brought it in from Norway.

It may be that achievable delivery rates were the problem.

I seem to remember something about a mega-scale sea-facing quarry being proposed in Scotland, maybe one has been built since then?

 

[Liam]

When the A55 was built past Penmaenmawr, the promenade was extended seawards to compensate for the land lost to the road. This needed new sea defences. Amazingly they were unable to source most of the rock locally, and brought it in from Norway.

It may be that achievable delivery rates were the problem.

I seem to remember something about a mega-scale sea-facing quarry being proposed in Scotland, maybe one has been built since then?

Glensanda started producing in 1986. On the remote Kingairloch estate, across from Lismore Island. Everything goes in by sea, everything comes out by sea.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7280224@N03/2120601373/

Some new plant going out to the quarry from Oban on the Rose of Lorne. You can see the Calmac terminal with the passeneger walkways in the background. These dumpers were brought in by a chartered P&O Irish vessel that squeezed into Oban's old linkspan.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not granite that forms the quarrying rock-type from Penmaenmawr mountain and its quarry and that product is sold as ballast material for the railway industry.

If granite seems to be an ideal large-size barrage-forming material for the project to the south of Wales, why cannot the quarry at Penmaenmawr supply it ?

 

[johnnychips]

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not granite that forms the quarrying rock-type from Penmaenmawr mountain and its quarry and that product is sold as ballast material for the railway industry.

If granite seems to be an ideal large-size barrage-forming material for the project to the south of Wales, why cannot the quarry at Penmaenmawr supply it ?

This is speculative, and I'm sure N Wales friends on this forum will inform me better, but is it because the supply is limited - the quarry being on the edge of the Snowdonia National Park? If Penmaenmawr granite is in any way prized or special, it will not want to compete for large-volume, low-priced quantities.

I'm only saying this as I know the millstone-grit from Birchover Quarry in Derbyshire is highly-prized, in limited supply, and would certainly not tender for a road-ballast contract!

 

[HSTEd]

Surely there are cubic kilometres of rock available in various parts of Scotland and Wales?

So we could polder half the North Sea and still not make a dent in teh supply?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

So we could polder half the North Sea and still not make a dent in teh supply?

I have learned a new word today - thank you.

 

[Holly]

Surely there are cubic kilometres of rock available in various parts of Scotland and Wales?
So we could polder half the North Sea and still not make a dent in the supply?

Sure. It just takes the political will to flatten a large mountain and build a new industrial railway line. Something the Victorians could have accomplished easily. When Britain was great.

The North Sea is a big deep though. The Irish Sea is much more suitable for land reclamation.

 

[Essex Man]

I can understand the idea of using the waste that covers the mountains surrounding Ffestiniog, but why transport it so far when the redundant nuclear power station at Transffyndd needs covering over as it's half-life means we can't do anything else with it for thousands of years.

 

[unlevel42]

...The North Sea is a big deep though. The Irish Sea is much more suitable for land reclamation.

There are parts of the Irish Sea suitable for reclamation and indeed Liverpool and Cardigan Bay are as shallow as the UK sector of North Sea.
However the greater depths, stronger currents and higher tides in the Irish Sea make it much more difficult.
Large scale reclamation of the North Sea has already taken place.

...the redundant nuclear power station at Transffyndd needs covering over as it's half-life means we can't do anything else with it for thousands of years.

Currently the fueless reactor at Trawsfynydd is cooling and buildings are being strengthened. Even after 2087 when the buildings will be gone the site needs to be monitored and checked so that any further work can be done. Covering it over is not happening soon and a clay would be more suitable.
The lake another serious problem.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Transport of any such material can only be countenanced , when the cost of transport is less than the value pf the material. (unless it is an HMG or LA funded reclamation or similar scheme)

At a guess , you are talking about £3000 or so for a train movement from Blaenau to say Holyhead or similar - s about £2-£3 a ton (which asks the question , how much is the hard rock worth and how does it compare to alternatives...?)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If Penmaenmawr granite is in any way prized or special, it will not want to compete for large-volume, low-priced quantities. I'm only saying this as I know the millstone-grit from Birchover Quarry in Derbyshire is highly-prized, in limited supply, and would certainly not tender for a road-ballast contract!

My apologies if my posting was based upon incorrect information, as I had been notified that the quarry output at Penmaenmawr was used to supply ballast to the rail industry. If, as you say, the granite from that quarry is prized or special, what are those uses to which it is put?

 

[unlevel42]

Transport of any such material can only be countenanced , when the cost of transport is less than the value pf the material. (unless it is an HMG or LA funded reclamation or similar scheme)

At a guess , you are talking about £3000 or so for a train movement from Blaenau to say Holyhead or similar - s about £2-£3 a ton (which asks the question , how much is the hard rock worth and how does it compare to alternatives...?)

Currently the HMG tax new material but not waste extraction.
HMG and EU have funds available for industrial and environmental reclamation.
None of the large spoil heaps are in the National Park but are very visible from it and so EU special funds are available.
As the only access to Blaenau Ffestiniog is through the National Park environment improvement/extraction and here might only be allowed by rail.

 

[jones_bangor]

Currently the HMG tax new material but not waste extraction.
HMG and EU have funds available for industrial and environmental reclamation.
None of the large spoil heaps are in the National Park but are very visible from it and so EU special funds are available.
As the only access to Blaenau Ffestiniog is through the National Park environment improvement/extraction and here might only be allowed by rail.

That's a very good summary of the issues - the local communities wouldn't be too pleased with lorry loads of slate trundling down the A470, and the A55 seems increasingly busy nowadays.

There's decades worth of "waste" slate at Blaenau, maybe some use with HS2?

 

[MarkyT]

I keep thinking a standard gauge connection between Trawsfynydd and somewhere like Porthmadog would be good.... but finding an alignment that doesn't require huge viaducts/tunnels would be very difficult.

Pity.

It appears sea transport from the North Coast of wales has it.

Or (taking cover!) convert the Ffestiniog to standard gauge?

Or use these - http://www.railveyor.com/ on the narrow gauge. I particularly like the discharge tippler design where the whole train turns upside down around a tight vertical loop, possible because the vehicles are narrower than their wheels. On the FR trains could descend under gravity loaded and be hauled back up in groups using locomotives. The 'tyre drives' would only be needed in the yards at either end and for 'launch' onto the gradient.

 

[HSTEd]

The North Sea is a big deep though. The Irish Sea is much more suitable for land reclamation.

Dykes in Holland have been built in 20m deep water (they are expensive but can be done).... if you look at the -20m contours in the North Sea you could increase the area of England by up to ten percent.

No gains like that are possible in the Irish Sea, although some can be made.

If we have access to large amounts of rock (and we do) we can potentially create thousands of square kilometres of additional land.