Gatwick Express Class 460's replaced by Class 442's: Your opinion

[MCR247]

Looking at the timetable and the available fleet, I can not see why all GatEx journeys can not be extended to Brighton to provide an enhanced express service on the Southern's premier line.

Because the 442s already work Brighton Expresses, they aren't solely used on GatEx runs

 

[BigVince76]

I have never been on a 442 apart from once from Pool to Weymouth in about 1994. What services do the operate apart from Gatwick? I don't want to pay for that!

 

[Minstral25]

Looking at the timetable and the available fleet, I can not see why all GatEx journeys can not be extended to Brighton to provide an enhanced express service on the Southern's premier line.

The issue is dwell times at stations - whereas a 377 can disgorge its passengers and take on new passengers very rapidly a 442 takes ages and on a tightly packed line the extra 60 seconds it takes to unload a 442 means another train can't follow for 4 minutes.

In any case the real capacity problem is not on the services to Brighton which are frequent, long formations and 80% full at best. The problem is the commuter services to towns around Surrey - Purley, Caterham, Redhill, Oxted etc - these services are overcrowded especially north of East Croydon and relief is required.

The only way I can see relief arriving is changing the Gatwick Express service by making it stop at East Croydon and Clapham Jnct but doing so will mean the 442's will need to find another service as they cannot work in this badly needed role due to dwell times

 

[Pumbaa]

Scrap that!

 

[Drsatan]

To the best of my knowledge, one reason why the 442s were transferred to Gatwick Express was because SWT decided to reintroduce all of the 458s back into service (before February 2007 only five or six 458s were in revenue operating serving, and prior to this SWT considered handing back the entire fleet to Porterbrook due to their atrocious reliability). This would have meant enough 450s could have been displaced from the Windsor line services to work on the Portsmouth Direct Line, allowing for the transfer of 444s to the Weymouth line to allow the 442s to be withdrawn.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading somewhere that the rationale for this decision was because the leasing costs per mile for 458s were considerably lower than for 442s. This would explain why the 442 refurbishment program, underway by February 2007, was cancelled as soon as Stagecoach won the South Western franchise re-letting.

Nonetheless, it was a stupid decision in terms of passenger comfort. I find the seats on 442s considerably more comfortable than the Grammer seats on 444s, and 442s were more suitable for journeys to Bournemouth due to their greater luggage capacity. A better solution would have been to order 24 extra 377s for Southern allowing for the disbanding of the 460 fleet, assuming the then SRA would have allowed it.

 

[SprinterMan]

A word of defence for the 442s. Gatwick Express has been a vaguely disturbing joke for many years now, ripping off tourists and taking up valuable paths out of Victoria. The 442s can work through to Brighton on peak GX trains and work the Brighton expresses throughout the day, making them far more useful than the 460s ever were. The refurb has given them nice seats, and increased capacity, giving them far more seats per carriage than the 460s. Aside from their narrow door and iffy reliability, they are really very good, and they are proper IC stock like the Mark 2s that came before the 460s. At least the 442s are in use, and the 460s have gone to a better place :P

Adam

 

[387star]

A word of defence for the 442s. Gatwick Express has been a vaguely disturbing joke for many years now, ripping off tourists and taking up valuable paths out of Victoria. The 442s can work through to Brighton on peak GX trains and work the Brighton expresses throughout the day, making them far more useful than the 460s ever were. The refurb has given them nice seats, and increased capacity, giving them far more seats per carriage than the 460s. Aside from their narrow door and iffy reliability, they are really very good, and they are proper IC stock like the Mark 2s that came before the 460s. At least the 442s are in use, and the 460s have gone to a better place :P

Adam

The refurb is a pretty poor job IMO they look dark and gloomy inside and the decor looks very 1970s/80s! very dated feel. They still have SWT upholstery in the driver cab. Mind you 319d have NSE upholstery in the drivers cab!

Also what's with the scratches on the back of first class seats? they seem to be affected in the same areas quite unsightly presumably luggage?

The seat recline mechanism is a joke too

The seats are hardly that comfortable just standard chapmans I believe

 

[RobShipway]

To be honest the class 442's are more for what I call proper Inter City services. For example if they had a pantograph on them I could see them do express services between London Euston and Birmingham, then have the 350's doing the stopping services which is what they are designed more to be anyway. However, other than doing the Waterloo - Bournemouth/Weymouth route what other route could they have done within the 3rd rail network where their doors would not have been an issue? I believe even when they do the Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour trains especially during the rush period the doors where a problem, which is where the 450's on that route are now more suitable.

The Brighton - London route is more of commuters routs and as such needs trains like the Class 377, 319 & Class 450 doing the services on this route as the doors are designed such that they enable quickness of entry & exit.

The only other use, I can see the Class 442's could be used is as passenger coach stock in the same way that the Chiltern Railways Mk3's are used.

 

[corfield]

I've noticed over the years that 442s and 444s door cofiguration causes problems west of Southampton/Bournmouth where usage is more local commuter and the timings between stations arr much shorter. Problems both in long dwell times and people not recognising they need to prep to disembark amd being unable to do so in time.

It's certainly made me question whether 1/3, 2/3 doors would mot be better, as they seem adeqaute on many other long IC/semi IC journeys (thinking Chiltern 168s).

 

[yorksrob]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading somewhere that the rationale for this decision was because the leasing costs per mile for 458s were considerably lower than for 442s. This would explain why the 442 refurbishment program, underway by February 2007, was cancelled as soon as Stagecoach won the South Western franchise re-letting.

So a stupid decision prompted by our equally stupid train leasing system (which makes little allowance for the depreciation in value of rolling stock over time).

 

[fgwrich]

Not completely related to 442s and the Gatwick Express, but a rather fresh looking (455) 5828 has escaped to Brighton this afternoon on an additional 1455 service to Victoria.

 

[paul1609]

The issue is dwell times at stations - whereas a 377 can disgorge its passengers and take on new passengers very rapidly a 442 takes ages and on a tightly packed line the extra 60 seconds it takes to unload a 442 means another train can't follow for 4 minutes.

In any case the real capacity problem is not on the services to Brighton which are frequent, long formations and 80% full at best. The problem is the commuter services to towns around Surrey - Purley, Caterham, Redhill, Oxted etc - these services are overcrowded especially north of East Croydon and relief is required.

The only way I can see relief arriving is changing the Gatwick Express service by making it stop at East Croydon and Clapham Jnct but doing so will mean the 442's will need to find another service as they cannot work in this badly needed role due to dwell times

To my mind the real capacity hoggers on the Brighton Main Line is actually Thameslink rather than Gatwick Express. When their all 12 car trains are introduced Id religate them to the slow lines from Three Bridges to East Croydon and introduce extra stops at Redhill and Purley. Leave the Gatwick Express as just that and return the Southampton and Portsmouth/ Bognor Regis back to the Quarry Lines.

Bingo loads of conflicting moves eliminated at Windmill and Stoats Nest junctions.

 

[JonathanH]

To my mind the real capacity hoggers on the Brighton Main Line is actually Thameslink rather than Gatwick Express. When their all 12 car trains are introduced Id religate them to the slow lines from Three Bridges to East Croydon and introduce extra stops at Redhill and Purley. Leave the Gatwick Express as just that and return the Southampton and Portsmouth/ Bognor Regis back to the Quarry Lines.

Bingo loads of conflicting moves eliminated at Windmill and Stoats Nest junctions.

Really? The timetable is cleverer than that - the moves at Stoats Nest Junction by the Bognor / Southampton / Portsmouth services are intended to match each other - there is no more conflict at Windmill Hill Junction on the fast line than there would be on the slow lines. A new conflict would be created south of Three Bridges. As it is, there are likely to be through trains from Thameslink to Purley and Redhill from 2018 so the Brighton ones don't need to go via Redhill.

 

[ModernRailways]

I think the 442's do the job of GatEx well.
From what I can tell Southern are waiting now for them to have to be removed from service so they can just remove the whole Gatwick Express branding and possibly get more 377's and introduce more trains stopping at Gatwick.
If they were to keep the GatEx branding then I wouldn't be surprised if they got new stock more suited to carrying passengers with large luggage. The doors on the 442 are terrible for anyone with a large bag!
I have noticed Southern are starting to run the 442's on a lot more Brighton services with one seemingly to be every 2 hours at least!
The main problem, like mentioned is the door's which stop them being used on Brighton service's more often. I noticed during the AM peak at East Croydon, there was a GatEx which flew past almost empty (maybe 10 people on board a 10 coach train), but then a 4 car 377 absolutely rammed pulled in about 5 minutes later, there were delays which meant some trains weren't in the right place, weren't the right length but many people then asked the staff on the platform why the other train didn't stop. It turned out most of the people waiting couldn't even get on the 377 and so the platform remained stupidly busy with everyone right next to the edge all the way back to the other side of the platform. Another 5 minutes later and an empty 10 car 442 arrived, however even then not everyone got on because it had took to long to board - it had been sat there for 3 minutes trying to get people in - and still about 25% of people couldn't board.
I remember on Twitter though someone posted to the fake @Southern_Trains account asking why people pay the extortionate price for GatEx and someone replied saying 'Because the green ones smell like wee'. Which in all honesty is quite true. People get the more expensive train and expect a better experience which in my opinion they do on a 442, a 377 is almost always rammed during the peaks and they do smell badly, at least they have when I've been on them. The trains to/from Portsmouth and Milton Keynes seem to be the worst for the smell!

 

[RyanB]

Looks like I will be using this Service in June as I'm going on a little trip to Berlin and returning via London (spending 2 days in London) - flying into Gatwick and obviously the quickest way to get up to London is by Train.

I'm assuming that the 442s don't have sockets for laptops or phones or anything like that?

 

[Lrd]

Looks like I will be using this Service in June as I'm going on a little trip to Berlin and returning via London (spending 2 days in London) - flying into Gatwick and obviously the quickest way to get up to London is by Train.

I'm assuming that the 442s don't have sockets for laptops or phones or anything like that?

Not in standard class, more than likely in first class only.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Looks like I will be using this Service in June as I'm going on a little trip to Berlin and returning via London (spending 2 days in London) - flying into Gatwick and obviously the quickest way to get up to London is by Train.

I'm assuming that the 442s don't have sockets for laptops or phones or anything like that?

Nope. I don't believe they have any sockets for phones/laptops at all. Not even in first class.

That said. It's a half hour journey and there are sockets available at gatwick airport.

 

[RyanB]

Nope. I don't believe they have any sockets for phones/laptops at all. Not even in first class.

That said. It's a half hour journey and there are sockets available at gatwick airport.

Ah well, not that it bothers me, just thought there might have been a chance given their history of being used on longer distance journeys.

Won't be fiddling around with Sockets at Gatwick though, chances are I'll be getting my bag and hauling ass to the station to board my train up to London.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Ah well, not that it bothers me, just thought there might have been a chance given their history of being used on longer distance journeys.

Won't be fiddling around with Sockets at Gatwick though, chances are I'll be getting my bag and hauling ass to the station to board my train up to London.

The never had sockets when they were with SWT. Also first was in a different place and was compartments.