Gatwick Express Class 460's replaced by Class 442's: Your opinion

[ryan125hst]

After watching a few videos of the Brighton Main Line today, I was thinking about the Gatwick Express.

When I went to London with my family back in 2008, I stayed in a hotel close to Victoria station and walked through the station on a few occasions. When doing this, I saw the Gatwick Express Class 460's and noticed how suitable for the job they are. They have a large luggage area at the buffer stop end of the platform and are fast and modern. They certainly looked the part.

Things have changed since then and they have now been withdrawn and replaced by the Class 442's, a train built in the 1980's that uses motors made in the 1960's. Now, I've got nothing against that 442's: They are Mark 3 carriages after all! However, I feel that they are much better suited to long distance journeys, such as the Waterloo to Weymouth services that they were used on previously.

I know that the 460's are being rebuilt to extend the Class 458's, but why have they chosen to remove a purpose built train and replace it with one that is far less suitable?

Could they not have built additional carriages for the 458's, or built a brand new Gatwick Express replacement if the current project had to go ahead?

What are your views on this?

Ryan

 

[GatwickDepress]

Was Porterbrook's plan to supplement the 458 fleet with the 460s devised after Southern's withdrawal?

I think Southern waste the 442s with Gatwick Express services and should utilise the 442s on all Brighton - Victoria fasts and select other express services such as Victoria to Southampton Central.

Perhaps a select number of 377s refurbished into a dedicated Gatwick Express fleet with all the mod cons, a greatly refurbished first class and a new livery could encourage greater use of first class and the Gatwick Express service as a whole if it provides something other services to Gatwick Airport wouldn't. Free wi-fi for first class, a "frequent flyer" rewards scheme for frequent users of the service, et cetera...could happen as part of a larger branding scheme.

The reason for replacing 377s...well, they are splendid creatures, but on every Brighton - Victoria fast I've been on they've made a habit of swaying quite a lot on the faster sections. Nearly spilt my tea once! The same journey on a 442 was greatly smoother.

I can't see South West Trains ever leasing the 442s back since the 444s are effectively the 442 for the 21st century.

 

[badassunicorn]

the 379's on Stansted Express are really nice inside, and show that a electrostar can be really tarted up if needs be.

 

[asylumxl]

Idiocy. That's my opinion.

But we all know that the government and rail industry do not think logically. God only knows how they think...

 

[ryan125hst]

Was Porterbrook's plan to supplement the 458 fleet with the 460s devised after Southern's withdrawal?

It probably was, but it means that the 460's can never go back to working the Gatwick Express because they won't exist!

I think Southern waste the 442s with Gatwick Express services and should utilise the 442s on all Brighton - Victoria fasts and select other express services such as Victoria to Southampton Central.

Perhaps a select number of 377s refurbished into a dedicated Gatwick Express fleet with all the mod cons, a greatly refurbished first class and a new livery could encourage greater use of first class and the Gatwick Express service as a whole if it provides something other services to Gatwick Airport wouldn't. Free wi-fi for first class, a "frequent flyer" rewards scheme for frequent users of the service, et cetera...could happen as part of a larger branding scheme.

I like that idea. Longer distance express services should be operated by 442's (maybe after undergoing another refurbishment and bringing back a small buffet counter). A fleet of dedicated 377's that have been refurbished especially should operate the Gatwick Express.

I can't see South West Trains ever leasing the 442s back since the 444s are effectively the 442 for the 21st century.

I'm not suggesting that they go back to operating on that route because, as you say, the current stock is effectively a 21st Century version of it. However, I do feel that they should be used on longer distance express services with few stops, not a 30 minute airport service!

 

[Goldfish62]

the 379's on Stansted Express are really nice inside, and show that a electrostar can be really tarted up if needs be.

I agree. 1st Class is superb.

 

[MCR247]

Was Porterbrook's plan to supplement the 458 fleet with the 460s devised after Southern's withdrawal?

No I believe it was before

To be honest, I actually think its a step in the right direction, and I think GX should be scrapped completely eventually

 

[wintonian]

We'll have the 442's back please, but only after first class has been reinstated complete with compartments and the buffet car restored, with flying bacon sandwiches I should imagine.

 

[Monty]

We'll have the 442's back please, but only after first class has been reinstated complete with compartments and the buffet car restored, with flying bacon sandwiches I should imagine.

A new traction package would be nice too, those REP motors must be getting very long in the tooth by now.

 

[455driver]

those REP motors must be getting very long in the tooth by now.

Not half as old as the EE507s are, they are still doing rather well in the 455s and 456s some of them were originally in the 405 4SUB units and apart from a bit of re-wiring (when fitted to the 455s to increase the weak field available) they are still the same motors!

 

[Monty]

Not half as old as the EE507s are, they are still doing rather well in the 455s and 456s some of them were originally in the 405 4SUB units and apart from a bit of re-wiring (when fitted to the 455s to increase the weak field available) they are still the same motors!

I was aware that some of the 455's motors were positively prehistoric. It does seem however they have aged an awful lot better than the REP traction equipment though, wouldn't you agree?

 

[radamfi]

Presumably once Southern are finished with the 442s they will be withdrawn.

I use 442s most days, mostly on the extended Gatwick Express services, and like using them, mostly because there are lots of plenty seats and I normally get a double seat to myself, a rarity in peak hours. However, the heating is a bit unreliable and sometimes I have to sit in a cold coach. Alternatively the heating may be too powerful and it can get uncomfortably hot, even in the current cold conditions. By contrast, 377s seem to have very reliable climate control.

Also, the whirring noise under the floor can be a bit annoying, although the noise level seems to vary between units. The middle coach doesn't have this problem, although it has a different problem with the coach jerking wildly when accelerating or braking.

 

[455driver]

At least the 507s dont "whine" about it!

Although 546s in good form are rather nice.

 

[Manchester77]

Sorry to kind of drift off topic but did BR really use 1920s/1930s SR traction equipment in their 'new' trains?!

 

[455driver]

Also, the whirring noise under the floor can be a bit annoying, although the noise level seems to vary between units. The middle coach doesn't have this problem, although it has a different problem with the coach jerking wildly when accelerating or braking.

Thats odd because that is where the traction motors are!

 

[Monty]

Sorry to kind of drift off topic but did BR really use 1920s/1930s SR traction equipment in their 'new' trains?!

It was quite a common practice for the Southern Railway and then BR (S) to recover components from withdrawn stock and reuse them in new vehicles.

 

[Manchester77]

It was quite a common practice for the Southern Railway and then BR (S) to recover components from withdrawn stock and reuse them in new vehicles.

When did this stop? I'm thinking when the networkers came in..?

 

[Monty]

When did this stop? I'm thinking when the networkers came in..?

I do believe the Class 442s were the last example of this policy in regarding the reuse of components. However you could argue with the Class 458/8 rebuilding program that the Southern Region's tradition of make do and mend lives on.

 

[Manchester77]

Aha at least it's not based on a 402 or something :')

 

[Monty]

Aha at least it's not based on a 402 or something :')

Or so may think.

 

[radamfi]

Thats odd because that is where the traction motors are!

So what is the noise under the other coaches?

 

[Lrd]

So what is the noise under the other coaches?

Probably a compressor or something.

 

[RichJF]

I think Southern waste the 442s with Gatwick Express services and should utilise the 442s on all Brighton - Victoria fasts and select other express services such as Victoria to Southampton Central.

Does London Bridge to Eastbourne once a day count as long distance (with intermediate stops)???

That's about the only other non Brighton/Gatwick service I've seen the 442's on.

 

[starrymarkb]

Wasn't a REP motor coach basically a Class 73 but without the Diesel engine (and the gubbins under the floor)

 

[ushawk]

I like having the 442s instead of 460s, though 442s arent suited for an airport shuttle service, more an express service like the Brighton Express or for more use on the Coastways.

Id prefer a 377 modified for an Airport service, much like a 379. Personally i think something like this will eventually happen as the 442s wont have that long left.

 

[455driver]

Wasn't a REP motor coach basically a Class 73 but without the Diesel engine (and the gubbins under the floor)

I suppose in very simple terms yes it was, a REP running on its own was "rather quick"!

Braking was rather scary though, anyone who has driven a class 421 (4CIG) Greyhound unit will tell you there was a sign in the cab saying "warning greyhound unit watch your speed" (or something like that) because they were a bit quicker than a standard CIG unit, cant ever remember seeing that written in a REP!

 

[starrymarkb]

I suppose in very simple terms yes it was, a REP running on its own was "rather quick"!

115mph+ IIRC

 

[Goatboy]

The whole 442 situation was madness. They were taken off the route they were perfectly suited for - hardly suprising given they were designed and built for the Weymouth to Waterloo route - and then put onto a route on which they are highly inappropriate. I'd imagine they will be withdrawn as soon as possible and the regular users of them now will be glad to see the back of them.

A 444 simply doesn't silently waft into Waterloo quite like a 442 did. They were fantastic to travel on.

Just what is the point in a 442 on GatEx? It isn't a long enough journey for the IC comfort of the 442 to be a big enough bonus to offset the disadvantages IC stock bring to high capacity routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Just what is the point in a 442 on GatEx? It isn't a long enough journey for the IC comfort of the 442 to be a big enough bonus to offset the disadvantages IC stock bring to high capacity routes.

The point is surely to provide significant extra capacity on Brighton - Victoria peak services? Didn't they achieve this?

In which case the implications for GatEx are a side effect.

 

[David Goddard]

Looking at the timetable and the available fleet, I can not see why all GatEx journeys can not be extended to Brighton to provide an enhanced express service on the Southern's premier line.

*The twenty four sets operating in pairs provide twelve ten-car trains.
*Based on the timings of the existing services on the route, I believe that a fast run calling at Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath only could reach Brighton in fifty four minutes.
*A twenty minute turnaround at each end would enable a train to run from London to Brighton and back, and ready to go out again, in two and a half hours.

Therefore such a service should be achievable with ten of the twelve trains (83% utilisation), leaving two (four sets) available for maintenance etc, and release 377s to strengthen other services and possibly add an extra semi fast service along similar lines to the xx51