Passenger vs Freight

[Rugd1022]

Probabaly had you in my cab when you were refreshing the route then

Wouldn't be surprised, there were half a dozen of us at Rugby learning the road, I did a fair few runs before hand, I was already familiar with the route having worked on it when I was a s/man at Old Oak, but there were a lot more semaphoroes back then - it was quite a shock seeing the line again after a quarter of a century...

 

[KA4C]

But I have no respect for him so don't take any of his comments on board. I think he has the typical "I have been on for many years, so I will put you down" type attitude and I have come across many like that on the railway and to be honest they are usually the type of person the railway is better off without.

How long have you been a driver then? you come across as having a problem by being corrected by people who actually do the job and so come up with the same old "arrogant" and "the modern railway doesn't need them"chestnuts (oh yes it does, trust me)

Anyway, freight guys have to learn routes to a standard that is risk assessed and includes all route risks,and their route retention is based upon the same requirement. Pass drivers may be "better" at stopping at stations but that is qualified by "the stations that they regularly stop at" Freight drivers certainly need a much greater knowledge of gradients, permitted loads and RA's over a route, locations along the route (try finding somewhere in a T3 if you don't know that). They have to know the requirements for short formed LHCS trains and how to apply to each route. They also work charters, there stopping at stations which often are too short for their train and with no boards to tell them where to stop. their traction knowledge requirement is also often much greater

So there you go, a driver is a driver, is a driver, not one of them is "better" or "superior" to another, they are footplate men, end of
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some of them also happen to have had recent incidents costing the company over a million.

Incidents can and do happen to anyone, regardless of how long they have been on the job

 

[TDK]

Maybe it has but there is some validity on that comment - through my job and previous job - I have met plenty of "experienced" staff who have terrible arrogant attitudes, hostile to new-commers and anyone else who they deem "inferior". Some of them also happen to have had recent incidents costing the company over a million.

Vaildity needs evidence, so what is your source of evidence to validate that these and only these experienced staff have cost their company £1m due to incidents, please reveal, was it "someone in the know told me" or maybe " I have a contact high up in the company who told me". I can see now why you failed 10 (your own figure) interviews for a mainline drivers job pal! Also you do this for fun? Fun is advising other potential trainees to give false information on their application forms as this MAY not be found out to get through the sift? Also to bend the truth in interview to get the job?

I would class this as a poor way of having some fun or using up your time as you are bored!

 

[bystander]

I think it's really funny. The more this Beveridges person posts, the more he comes across as the kind of railwayman whom I do my absolute utmost to avoid, who has an absolute belief in their opinions, overheard gossip from other messroom know-it-alls, and ingrained prejudices.

There are a number of members who add a lot to the discussion, have knowledge based on fact or experience of their own, and who are willing to be corrected where necessary.

Then there are characters like this.

All God's children, as we used to say

Y

 

[Beveridges]

I can see now why you failed 10 (your own figure) interviews for a mainline drivers job pal!

But eventully "passed" an Interview for an MDD positon - then worked my way out of the the bottom link (which was dominated by tanking duties) to now what must be one of the best rail jobs in my region - yes I've failed at some things in my past. Who hasn't? Irrelevant now as I'm in the job I want to be in. But do not label me as a failure. Getting paid more than enough money for something I enjoy most of the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Vaildity needs evidence, so what is your source of evidence to validate that these and only these experienced staff have cost their company £1m due to incidents, please reveal, was it "someone in the know told me" or maybe " I have a contact high up in the company who told me".

Since you asked - One of them happened to smash a very expensive type of train into the buffers, then a couple of years earlier, crashed a unit into another one. He is very experienced, been on nearly 20 years, and is known to take all manner of short cuts varying in severity, not that I would risk my job by listing them on here on a public forum, PM if your that interested. The last thing I want is management reading what goes on at some depots.
He is just one example. It's not what "I heard" as I saw it all happen right in front of me at my work place - except the crash itself but then that was all detailed in the notice cases and safety briefs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can see now why you failed 10 (your own figure) interviews for a mainline drivers job pal!

They were years ago now & I've explained enough times already why I used to apply elsewhere but not anymore. And also why I am now actually quite glad that I did not get all those jobs I went for. Also failure is questionable - a few of those jobs I got put "on hold" which is not the same as failing. The vast majority of those jobs I failed (Internally) were actually because my TOC were not too impressed that I was applying for other jobs already when I had only just completed my MDD Training - which is very, very expensive.
If I applied again in a few years time I would probably have walked into those trainee jobs! Not being arrogant but just being an MDD with a few years experience -especially at such a high reputation depot - is an almost instant pass on an application form & interview & the psycho tests are already bagged.

I would class this as a poor way of having some fun or using up your time as you are bored!

But then you would as you disagree with a high % of the stuff I put on here

I think it's really funny. The more this Beveridges person posts, the more he comes across as the kind of railwayman whom I do my absolute utmost to avoid, who has an absolute belief in their opinions, overheard gossip from other messroom know-it-alls, and ingrained prejudices.

There are a number of members who add a lot to the discussion, have knowledge based on fact or experience of their own, and who are willing to be corrected where necessary.

Then there are characters like this.

All God's children, as we used to say in the old bill!

Says an anonymous "member" with only 11 posts and no profile.


Thats the last comments I'll make on this particular subject as I have made my point. If you want to take it further then PM me but I don't want to discuss this on a public thread, this thread must be starting to make for some very tedious reading to some other people who are not interested in the successes and "apparant" failures in my life history. But as people keep bringing them up in public I have had to put the record straight in public.

But in all seriousness, I admit that I regret even posting a single comment in this thread, as freight is certainly one of my least favourite "subjects" to discuss on a forum by a long way.

 

[TDK]

Since you asked - One of them happened to smash a very expensive type of train into the buffers, then a couple of years earlier, crashed a unit into another one. He is very experienced, been on nearly 20 years, and is known to take all manner of short cuts varying in severity, not that I would risk my job by listing them on here on a public forum, PM if your that interested. The last thing I want is management reading what goes on at some depots.
He is just one example. It's not what "I heard" as I saw it all happen right in front of me at my work place - except the crash itself but then that was all detailed in the notice cases and safety briefs.

Thats all well Bev, but I could give examples of incidents with new drivers, Poor driver Hodder for instance, not his fault but he didn't have 20 years experience and was not apparently one for taking short cuts, another was a collision at Charing Cross, a driver with only 8 months experience. You directly associated incidents with experienced drivers with attitude however statistically you will find it is in general a level playing field and there isn't a trend on incidents and costing on incidents exept for the study I have explained below.

Actually when I did a study of incidents to gather precursors on the trend of incidents the highest percentage of incidents was with drivers from the 18 month to 3 year experience level and my study concluded that this was down to complacency with drivers with this experience had passed their initial "getting used to the job" to becoming complacent with their role.

There are many factors and trends when it comes to incidents with drivers and it isn't down to 20 year experience drivers taking short cuts although in the case you describe this could well have been a major contributing factor.

Sorry if you are peeved at me posting in an open forum regarding your successes and failures but I have never pm'd you and the information I have posted is only repeating what you have put on this open forum yourself!

We will leave it there as your are correct this is not helping anyone however when you post anything that will get a reaction if you don't want a reaction read it before you click the "submit reply" button!

 

[Dieseldriver]

At what point do you become an 'experienced' driver? I need to know when my SOL immunity will run out...

 

[455driver]

I am quite happy to remain inexperienced in certain aspects of driving trains thank you!

 

[notadriver]

I have never questioned your competence Beveridges and have the utmost respect for you.

 

[TDK]

At what point do you become an 'experienced' driver? I need to know when my SOL immunity will run out...

To be fair all drivers no matter what experience they have learn something new every day however there is no ball park figure on experience I suppose it obvious that the longer you have been in any role the more experience you have gained. The post by 455 sums it up really but I would class a driver with over 5 years as an experienced driver but that is just my opinion.

For a driver to be attractive to another TOC if they have 5 clear years without a safety of the line incident and have 5 years experience in my opinion they will be most likely a better shot for a position than someone with 20 years but had incidents over the past 5 years.

 

[plastictaffy]

So, the moral of the story?? Don't talk about a subject unless you either a) have fact relating to what you are talking about, or b) don't mind getting "Trolled" as you put it if someone happens to have more experience (and therefore almost certainly more knowledge) about the subject than you.
Also, as a side note - Beveridges, you said you had the best job in the world. I don't think so. I enjoy my job and don't think I would want to do anything else, ever. So doesn't that make my job the best job in the world?? A job is what you make it, pal.

 

[Beveridges]

So, the moral of the story?? Don't talk about a subject unless you either a) have fact relating to what you are talking about, or b) don't mind getting "Trolled" as you put it if someone happens to have more experience (and therefore almost certainly more knowledge) about the subject than you

Yes your right. It is normally best to never to talk about a subject because you never know who is going to post after you, and if that person happens to have more experience on the subject, theres a risk he could troll you! Even if the thread was not exactly getting overwhelmed with replies before submitting the first reply. In fact, it had none at all.

Also, as a side note - Beveridges, you said you had the best job in the world. I don't think so. I enjoy my job and don't think I would want to do anything else, ever. So doesn't that make my job the best job in the world??

When did I ever say I have got the best job in the World?
Feel free to quote from anywhere.

 

[GB]

Yes your right. It is normally best to never to talk about a subject because you never know who is going to post after you, and if that person happens to have more experience on the subject, theres a risk he could troll you!

That is not the point he was making at all.

Even if the thread was not exactly getting overwhelmed with replies before submitting the first reply. In fact, it had none at all.

There was barely 2 hours before the first post and the first reply. Not a lot of time to let the conversation get going before you came in.

 

[TDK]

If someone has an incident mainline they are put on the shed as they are deemed safer there. Every job has it's uses, without you doing your MDD the mainline drivers would have to do it. There is no point in arguing over this as mainline driving and MDD are totally different roles. The ex mainline drivers at your depot are they there due to restrictions?

 

[Beveridges]

Two of them are there because they have had fatalities that have effected their willingness to stay on the mainline. Some of the others are here because of incidents they've had on mainline.
If they have too many incidents on shed they get put on fuelling permenantly. Not a job many can stick for long.

Every job has it's uses, without you doing your MDD the mainline drivers would have to do it

A couple of decades ago they did have to do it. Nowadays they are only trained to take units on and off at my place.
There are Mainline Drivers in my TOC who want more Depot work / ECS / shunting as part of their duties to break up the monotonoy of constant class 2 passenger service driving which makes up 95% of their duties.
So the existance of the MDD Grade is not necessarily good news for mainline drivers, though it will benefit the TOC by having it as two seperate grades.

The sad part is that you actually give advice to people interested in mainline driving!

I certainly didnt- any first-hand advice I have given is strictly depot only.
Anything about mainline has began the sentence with "From what I have heard" or similar to indicate that the information is second-hand.

To other readers: There is no reason to doubt the quality of the information I post onto Rail UK, Railchat or Northern Railways.

None of the information is biased and any second-hand information is clearly stated as being exactly that.

not others that may be reduced in grade for whatever reason and are merrily carrying out their punishment.

"punishment" ? Try asking any of them if they would want to go back. There is only ever one answer.
Most of them claim they're far happier now on shed than they were on mainline. Maybe they are trying to hide their "failure" (as you would probably put it), but more than likely, they just happen to be telling the truth.
I will listen to their advice, as they have done my role *and* Mainline roles that are in my region, before ever taking notice of any conflicting advice from someone on the Internet who works in a completely different company in a different part of the UK
"Reduced in grade" ? - No but "Moved into a different grade" would certainly be more correct.

 

[Legzr1]

"punishment" ?

Yes.

As you've said yourself, some MDD drivers are there because of SOL incidents.
Hence, reduced in grade as punishment.

Try asking any of them if they would want to go back. There is only ever one answer.

Is it 'yes'?


To be fair, you're not going to get a unbiased answer to the question.
It's a defense mechanism and is probably how a lot of them cope with the substantial loss in wages, monotonous and dirty work.

Maybe they feel a need to justify the role they find themselves in.

The same train of thought could explain why you seem to think a depot driver is the 'pinnacle' of the industry after attempting to get a mainline drivers role on numerous occasions in the past.

I will listen to their advice, before ever taking notice of any conflicting advice from someone on the Internet who works in a completely different company in a different part of the UK.

That makes sense.

But don't make the mistake of totally discounting what I have to say.
I've done the job in the past.
Shed driving is far less taxing, everything happens at two speeds - zero or 5mph, and is ideal as a break now and again (and probably explains why some drivers like the idea of shed turns in the main links).

To some it's actually a career choice but to many (as proven by the numerous posts on this forum) it's simply a stepping stone to 'better' things.

"Reduced in grade" ? - No but "Moved into a different grade" would be more correct.

That's like saying "I wasn't sacked. I was simply asked to move onto a different profession"...

 

[KA4C]

"Reduced in grade" ? - No but "Moved into a different grade" would certainly be more correct.

I suspect if you look in the driver T & C's for your company or look at the hearing notes of those placed on depot for some misdemeanour, you are most likely to find the term "reduced in grade" used

 

[TDK]

Shed driving is far less taxing, everything happens at two speeds - zero or 5mph, and is ideal as a break now and again (and probably explains why some drivers like the idea of shed turns in the main links).

I was on nights doing depot driving as our toc do not have depot drivers, us mainline drivers have to do it, and I hate it. You have to give Bev some credit here as I for sure would sooner drive a bus than be a depot driver. Our depot driving turn involves shunts on the mainline as well which I also hate. If anyone has an incident or are restricted they go on the shed!.

 

[Beveridges]

I don't know why some people hate shunting so much. To me the idea of driving a 142 at up to 75mph, for 5-7 hours in a shift, stopping at all shacks, over the same few routes, does not sound fun to say the least. Thats exactly what I would be doing a lot if I took any of the "natural" mainline opportunities available in my area.

So it really does depend what area you are in, what TOC you work for and what the work is like. To some, a move from depot to mainline may be a good choice, but to others, it isn't

It's a defense mechanism and is probably how a lot of them cope with the substantial loss in wages, monotonous and dirty work

Depot driving - at least where I am - is dirty if your stupid enough not to wear gloves, but it is not monotonous!
It really does depend where your coming from here.
Two of the ex-mainline depot drivers came from a mainline role with very little variety, stuck on just three routes all the time. They got took off mainline due to incidents caused by lack of concentration at the wrong moment. They said the mainline role they came from was monotonous in the extreme, and the depot work is very varied in comparison.
Also yes they said depot work is far less taxing especially compared to driving a 1980's unit on a hot day over the same routes for long periods of time.

 

[W230]

I was on nights doing depot driving as our toc do not have depot drivers, us mainline drivers have to do it, and I hate it. You have to give Bev some credit here as I for sure would sooner drive a bus than be a depot driver. Our depot driving turn involves shunts on the mainline as well which I also hate. If anyone has an incident or are restricted they go on the shed!.

We have depot drivers at my TOC but I actually wouldn't mind doing the odd bit of depot work every now and then with the mainline work. Feels like variety is the spice of life and all that but maybe it's the quick turn arounds and the sometimes monotonous work of the commuter TOC peaking through.

But most of the older drivers seem to hate any form of shunting, though i'm not yet sure if that's down to the increased chance of getting something wrong with the rarer mainline shunt or if it's just really because they hate the walking when changing ends.

 

[Beveridges]

We have depot drivers at my TOC but I actually wouldn't mind doing the odd bit of depot work every now and then with the mainline work. Feels like variety is the spice of life and all that but maybe it's the quick turn arounds and the sometimes monotonous work of the commuter TOC peaking through

I must admit I would probably go for a mainline role if it still included a decent percentage of depot work. The variety of doing a good mix of both would be good. Unfortunately its not normally the case - it seems that with all the roles in my area you do one or the other, permenantly, and I don't want to leave behind what I'm doing now.

But most of the older drivers seem to hate any form of shunting, though i'm not yet sure if that's down to the increased chance of getting something wrong with the rarer mainline shunt or if it's just really because they hate the walking when changing ends

It has got to be the latter.
At my place the number 1 thing the older depot drivers moan about is walking and climbing on & off units.

 

[TDK]

It has got to be the latter.
At my place the number 1 thing the older depot drivers moan about is walking and climbing on & off units.

Agreed, I think every depot shoold have a wrinkly link

 

[W230]

Unfortunately its not normally the case - it seems that with all the roles in my area you do one or the other, permenantly, and I don't want to leave behind what I'm doing now.

Makes sense - though I wouldn't want to leave the mainline work behind.

It has got to be the latter. At my place the number 1 thing the older depot drivers moan about is walking and climbing on & off units.

I actually like the chance to stretch my legs, at the moment at least!

 

[Beveridges]

Shed driving is far less taxing, everything happens at two speeds - zero or 5mph

Putting units back together - that does not happen at zero or 5mph.

Those tricky moves happen at (what I would say) about 0.2mph, in reverse

Shed driving though is always going to be less taxing due to the fact that the driving is broken up frequently by fuelling, train prep, pulling points, DP duties, walking and lots of other outdoor manual work. It's never going to be driving 4 hours in a row like a mainline job can be.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And finally, while carrying out a forum "Search" for something completely unrelated, I accidentally came across an "interesting" post that you made several years ago:

I know of at least two qualified mainline drivers who begged to become 'shed' drivers.

I also know of two 'shed' drivers who were offered the opportunity of promotion into the mainline links on several occasions and kindly declined the offer.

So even you know it really. Depot Drivers are not "mainline wannabe failures" or "failed ex-mainline drivers wishing they were back on the mainline" most are in the grade by choice and wouldn't want to do anything else.