Availability of train toilets

[ryan125hst]

After hearing a few stories of people being on trains with toilets that are locked out of use, I was wondering whether this is a big and frequent problem around the network, or whether problems are relatively few and far between.

This is more of an issue these days as trains have fewer onboard toilets than they used to: Mark 1, 2 and 3 carriages have two per carriage in most cases (excluding catering vehicles and carriages with guard's accommodation). By comparison, most four coach trains in London only have two toilets, so a toilet failure could be a big problem.

Now, I haven't got the biggest bladder in the world so it would worry me if I was getting on a train for a long journey to find that all of the toilets were out of use, particularly when many stations don't have toilets and some that do have limited opening hours. At least I would be able to wait until I got to a toilet- some passengers, such as those who with medical conditions, young children and the elderly, might not be so fortunate.

So, what I was wondering is as follows:

• How frequently do toilets fail on trains?
• Are there particular classes of train that are worse for toilet failures than others?
• Do some TOCs suffer from toilet failures more frequently than others?
• Are toilet failures prone to certain routes? (London Midland's Euston to Crewe springs to mind)
• As a passenger, what are your rights in this situation?

Thanks

Ryan

 

[455driver]

So, what I was wondering is as follows:

• How frequently do toilets fail on trains? Depends how often the passengers block them!
• Are there particular classes of train that are worse for toilet failures than others? Modern ones with a complicated system.
• Do some TOCs suffer from toilet failures more frequently than others? Yes, the ones who run routes frequented by neanderthals.
• Are toilet failures prone to certain routes? (London Midland's Euston to Crewe springs to mind) see above.
• As a passenger, what are your rights in this situation? Pee in a bottle!

Thanks

Ryan

That about covers it.

 

[Harlesden]

Not so much a case of "failure" as misuse. There are some young people around who somehow think it is highly amusing to leave a public toilet in a disgusting state. There is no onboard cleaner and you cannot expect a guard or conductor to roll his/her sleeves up and clean an offensive mess that someone has left behind them.

 

[the sniper]

In my experience it's much more likely for a Toilet to be locked out because of public abuse/misuse than because the toilet has failed. The main non-public related problem I know of is the toilet running out of water, which on some units will mean that the toilet will lock its self out of use. This is much rarer than the former problem.

EDIT:

Not so much a case of "failure" as misuse. There are some young people around who somehow think it is highly amusing to leave a public toilet in a disgusting state.

This isn't an age thing. The worst toilet sights I've seen have been left by older people.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I often see the seat and floor splattered with urine from 444s to 377s. I can only assume some men (and women who like a challenge?) try and beat the swaying on a moving train.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Not so much a case of "failure" as misuse. There are some young people around who somehow think it is highly amusing to leave a public toilet in a disgusting state. There is no onboard cleaner and you cannot expect a guard or conductor to roll his/her sleeves up and clean an offensive mess that someone has left behind them.

It's not just young people, please don't generalise.

 

[pinguini]

Oh those young ragamuffins.

 

[Flamingo]

Had to lock a toilet out of use last night as three teenage drunks on their way out thought it would be funny to thrash it (It did result in them getting off a stop earlier than intended). As the other two toilets were occupied by fare-dodgers, this was a bit unfortunate on everybody coming home from the pub.

Eventually, one of the fare-dodgers was shamed into coming out by the constant knocking on the door by desperate passengers, and very upset that I subsequently sold him an Anytime Single, not the child off-peak he requested.

 

[CC 72100]

Eventually, one of the fare-dodgers was shamed into coming out by the constant knocking on the door by desperate passengers, and very upset that I subsequently sold him an Anytime Single, not the child off-peak he requested.

And he thinks that's hard done by? He probably has no idea how much worse it could have been.

I did see 3 people in a 170 loo once at Gloucester (before barriers). They hit the lock button everytime someone tried to use it for the intended manner. Must have been a tight squeeze! hock:

 

[Aldaniti]

There's certainly been a reduction in the number of toilets on new trains operating former InterCity routes. BR Mk3 stock usually had a toilet at each end of the carriage and it was rare that you had to wait to use the facilities. On, for example, Virgin Pendolinos and Voyagers, the number of toilets were cut back because they cost money and don't make a profit. DDA toilets I would imagine cost more and it's quite right that a train should have at least one, although why Virgin Voyagers need them all to be DDA compliant is beyond me. A terribly designed train...

 

[asylumxl]

On, for example, Virgin Pendolinos and Voyagers, the number of toilets were cut back because they cost money and don't make a profit.

Toilets take up "furnishable space" which could be occupied by seats. I think most people would rather have the option of a seat than 2 toilets per carriage.

Seems like another attempt to turn a thread in to a Voyager and Pendolino bashing thread to me, sorry.

 

[Dave1987]

I think the real problems are that certain groups of passengers like to mess up the toilets for other passengers by putting large amounts of toilet paper down them to block them and the turn around times for stock at terminus staions just isnt long enough for cleaners to clean the interiors of trains and clean the toilets.

Also due to the fact that all trains have to have DDA compliant toilets with CET tanks, they take up a lot more room and the tanks can fill up and lock themselves out of use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It also amazes me how many people complain that a train is filthy then leave their half eaten McDonalds or Burger King on the seats or just decide the floor is an appropriate place for their rubbish. You really have to love the great british public eh!!

 

[Aldaniti]

Toilets take up "furnishable space" which could be occupied by seats. I think most people would rather have the option of a seat than 2 toilets per carriage.

Seems like another attempt to turn a thread in to a Voyager and Pendolino bashing thread to me, sorry.

Not really, it's just that if I want to travel to London or Scotland by rail I have no choice but to use Virgin Trains. If I lived on a Cross Country route I'd be saying the same about their trains.

Of course if you're really bothered about seating capacity perhaps we should look at why four and five coach trains were ordered which brings us back nicely to profit. :roll:

 

[asylumxl]

Not really, it's just that if I want to travel to London or Scotland by rail I have no choice but to use Virgin Trains. If I lived on a Cross Country route I'd be saying the same about their trains.

Of course if you're really bothered about seating capacity perhaps we should look at why four and five coach trains were ordered which brings us back nicely to profit. :roll:

And we all know the reasons, nothing to do with the design or operators and all to do with the governments short sighted choices. It's a problem that is far more systemic, permeating all manner of things in the UK.

 

[Monty]

Also due to the fact that all trains have to have DDA compliant toilets with CET tanks, they take up a lot more room and the tanks can fill up and lock themselves out of use.

This is the real problem, the fact that modern trains these days store human waste (not necessarily a bad thing mind) in tanks and lock themeselves out of use when full or when out of water. While I would argue that the misuse of toilets is nothing new (I vividly remember having to use some pretty minging loos in slammers on the Reading line when I was in school) I have to say modern stock does seem to have a certain 'stench' that I never experienced on the older stock.

 

[Aldaniti]

And we all know the reasons, nothing to do with the design or operators and all to do with the governments short sighted choices. It's a problem that is far more systemic, permeating all manner of things in the UK.

The government didn't specify the trains that Virgin ordered. If you're talking about privatisation itself then I'm in full agreement with you.

 

[ryan125hst]

This is the real problem, the fact that modern trains these days store human waste (not necessarily a bad thing mind) in tanks and lock themeselves out of use when full or when out of water. While I would argue that the misuse of toilets is nothing new (I vividly remember having to use some pretty minging loos in slammers on the Reading line when I was in school) I have to say modern stock does seem to have a certain 'stench' that I never experienced on the older stock.

Do you think that one way around this problem would be to install an overflow system so that when the tank is full, the waste discharges onto the track like it used to?

 

[asylumxl]

The government didn't specify the trains that Virgin ordered. If you're talking about privatisation itself then I'm in full agreement with you.

Do tell. Did Virgin pay for them? Who had the final say? Did the SRA have no involvement in the West Coast Modernisation Programme?

I mean the UK in general. The governments are short sighted. Where other countries would design a structure for a 50 year life span, they specify 20 years. They just assume the problem will fall with someone else and it just costs the tax payer more in the long run.

 

[Monty]

Do you think that one way around this problem would be to install an overflow system so that when the tank is full, the waste discharges onto the track like it used to?

I'm not sure you'll ever get away with something like that now on new stock these days.

 

[sarahj]

The rules on when toilets must be provided are to do with catering. If a catering service is provided on board, from a trolley to a full restaurant car, there must be working toilets. Also if toilets are advertised and non available a toilet stop can be, and has been authorised (on trips of over an hour).

Warning, dont read further while eating or have a weak system.

New toilets, ie retention and DDA toilets fail more cause they are more complex. Its a lot more than the old days of a hole down to the track. You have to use a vac system, which can and does get clogged up when people put things down it cannot cope with. It then must be kept in a tank, and kept nice and warm. Let it cool down, it solidifes and you cannot suck it out. This is what causes the smell, as it also has to be ventilated, after all nice warm pooh can be a tad unstable. Then the tank must be emptied, takes time and you need somewhere out of the way to do, ie depot. You also need water to keep it working, so you have a tank that needs filling. Then on top of that you have a sliding door, which seems to confuse people who open it by pressing a button, but try and shut it by hand, causing jams. Stuff also gets caught in the door, causing it to bounce back when trying to shut. Then you have smoke detectors for those that like a sly fag and also for those who think its fun to set things alight.

You also have to remember that toilets are dropped in as one lot through the roof when building, so if they go wrong its not easy to replace.

And then you get the passengers who think its ok to change a nappy and thow the used one on the floor, etc etc

I think that covers it.

 

[yorksrob]

Using a lot of two carriage trains with only one loo, I often find that they have run out of water by evening time. This is fairly understandable and as they are usually trad flush ones round my way, you can usually still use them for a pee. What's less comprehendable is when you get on the train of a morning and the tank still hasn't been filled! Fortunately this scenario seems to be rarer than it used to be.

 

[Broken Viking]

After hearing a few stories of people being on trains with toilets that are locked out of use, I was wondering whether this is a big and frequent problem around the network, or whether problems are relatively few and far between.

I use late night SWT services out of Waterloo fairly often (1B01 especially) and lock-outs seem to be a worryingly regular occurrence on those, especially considering the fact that a passenger in need can't use the facilities at an intermediate station if they're on the last train of the night (Not that said facilities are ever open anyway!) and I've come across some extremely unpleasant circumstances in my time as a result.

One example that sticks in my mind was a journey on 1B01 just before Xmas (I think it might've been on the 19th Dec) where all four toilets on our two Class 450 units were out of service, but the one next to where I had to stand because I had my bike stowed in the appropriate space had been forced open by a passenger at Waterloo and was getting a lot of use during the journey, despite both the bowl and floor being flooded and leaking out into the saloon. This was unpleasant enough of course (Indeed, it caused one poor passenger to vomit at the sight of it) but the fact that we'd been routed through East Putney, Effingham Jct and Guildford due to engineering works that night made it altogether worse.

Worst of all was the fact that I'd actually noticed that all of the bogs were U/S as I was walking up to board (I normally check the OOU lights as I'm walking up) and knowing we were to be diverted as above I asked the Guard if we could be swapped out to another consist with working loos (A suitable consist was on the adjacent platform) to avoid the inevitable problems I could forsee, but he appeared to disregard it and not enquire with Wessex as to whether or not this might be possible.

Needless to say, SWT received a very clear and strongly worded letter of complaint in relation to that particular run...And hopefully they'll have made the appropriate adjustments to their operating procedures as a result!

I often see the seat and floor splattered with urine from 444s to 377s. I can only assume some men (and women who like a challenge?) try and beat the swaying on a moving train.

Considering some of the things that I see when I use the on-board facilities, I do often wonder if I'm one of very few male passengers who have the mind to clean up after themselves if they accidentally make a mess?

The rules on when toilets must be provided are to do with catering. If a catering service is provided on board, from a trolley to a full restaurant car, there must be working toilets. Also if toilets are advertised and non available a toilet stop can be, and has been authorised (on trips of over an hour).

Is this why catering is such a rare find on SWT and LM services?

In closing, I have to say I'm surprised when operators don't think to inform passengers in advance about trains where there are no working toilets. The one case I've seen where they've done so was on a train I caught from Frimley a couple of years ago (The warning "Please note: No working toilets on this train" was displayed - Amusingly enough - On the platform PIS ) and this gave me the ample opportunity to use a nearby public convenience before catching my train...So it definitely IS possible to warn passengers in advance and let them make their own arrangements!

Incidentally; Has any TOC ever given thought to installing waterless urinals that could drain out of the train and into the cess? I know they'd only address male passengers (And maybe the odd intrepid female) but would certainly solve a lot of problems on late night trains and on the 455s especially!
>> Death <<

 

[michael769]

I very rarely see toilets put of use up here. That may have something to do with the fact that an unusable toilet is a SQUIRE failure and Scotrail gets fined.

 

[PHILIPE]

On many occasions I have found toilets to be out of water. This is not the fault of a passenger. A regular thing then is for the toilets to be blocked up with excess paper.

 

[Aldaniti]

I very rarely see toilets put of use up here. That may have something to do with the fact that an unusable toilet is a SQUIRE failure and Scotrail gets fined.

Good idea. Shows what can be done with the right 'motivation'.

 

[PHILIPE]

Not my experience on the North Clyde. I have n't checked since the Edinburgh via Bathgate started, but prior to that everytime I went to use on a 318 or a 334 on the North Clyde, they were locked out of use.

 

[wintonian]

In my experience they are normally out of water or the tank is full and the chances of finding a working toilet coming out of Waterloo diminishes as the day passes, mind you by then it's normally slopping about the floor anyway.

I seem to remember that we rarely had this trouble when the slammers just dumped it on the track leaving you something to muse over whilst sipping your morning coffee on the platform.

 

[trainophile]

A regular thing then is for the toilets to be blocked up with excess paper.

Why don't they fit dispensers that hold proper toilet rolls, rather than those tall cylinder things containing a stack of separate sheets interfolded, that are almost impossible not to get a big wadge out of when you only want a few sheets?

My theory is that it isn't always vandalism causing these blockages, just people getting an inch thick pile of paper and dropping it in the bowl because they don't know what else to do with it.

When this happens to me, I try to put the surplus in the bin, but that's often full to the brim anyway. There's nowhere to put the excess paper while you "adjust your dress before leaving" - I once put it on the only shelf, which is underneath the hand-dryer, and it triggered the dryer sensor and flew all over the cubicle! Not to mention being extremely wasteful of paper!

Replace those stupid contraptions with holders that take the industrial sized rolls, and I bet half the blockage problems would be avoided immediately.

 

[iphone76]

Greater Anglia loos, certainly on the 321s from Southend, are usually fine. They even have nice landscapes on the back on the doors now.

My new gripe, are the white trays they have installed at Liverpool Street to catch waste flushed at the station. Before they were black, so you couldn't see too much - now they are white - you can see everything floating around in urine. Not the best start to the day.

 

[martinsh]

So, what I was wondering is as follows:

• How frequently do toilets fail on trains?
• Are there particular classes of train that are worse for toilet failures than others?
• Do some TOCs suffer from toilet failures more frequently than others?
• Are toilet failures prone to certain routes? (London Midland's Euston to Crewe springs to mind)

ANSWERS

1. far too often
2. Voyagers, Pendolinos, 350s (specially). [ Of other classes I travel on regularly, 158s and 175s almost never have a problem ]
3. LM / Virgin
4. Longer routes I guess - certainly toilets should be sorted before the journey starts.

This is more of an issue these days as trains have fewer onboard toilets than they used to: Mark 1, 2 and 3 carriages have two per carriage in most cases. By comparison, most four coach trains in London only have two toilets, so a toilet failure could be a big problem.

Can anyone explain WHY there are less toilets on trains these days ? Are we all supposed to have developed stronger bladders ?!