Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract Finally Done!!

[johnb]

SWT are looking for another 100 extra vehicles. Since the majority of their rolling stock is Siemens based, you never know...

Stick some shoes on the 350s and send them dahn sarf, where they were always intended to be?

 

[Class377/5]

SWT are looking for another 100 extra vehicles. Since the majority of their rolling stock is Siemens based, you never know...

SWT will be getting a Siemens version of the 377/6 I believe if they go with them. Desiro City body shell with 444/450 software.

 

[Manchester77]

Stick some shoes on the 350s and send them dahn sarf, where they were always intended to be?

Why and loose 30 trains in the West Midlands?!
The 350/1s were intended for SWT and are dual voltage. These 30 trains for the main LM 110 mph fleet. Why take them?!

 

[RobShipway]

If the order for 100 carriages is true, then I think it best to wait and see what gets ordered for SWT.

Although, I cannot see it being Siemens trains unless the new trains are built by Bombardier get transferred to replace the 350's with LM in some way so that SWT has a unique. You need also to remember that both LM and Southern are part of Go-Ahead who may want to have a uniform fleet between the two franchises?

 

[jon0844]

Can that work, given franchises change?

 

[WatcherZero]

Birdies are telling me that after initial operation the Government intends they be cascaded to whats now TPE North replacing the 185's after electrification.

 

[johnb]

Why and loose 30 trains in the West Midlands?!
The 350/1s were intended for SWT and are dual voltage. These 30 trains for the main LM 110 mph fleet. Why take them?!

I wasn't being wholly serious.

That said, in theory - SWT needs about 100 new trains. There are 87 350s of the various classes in total (in practice, any modern EMU is dual voltage - adding DC equipment to the 350/2-4s would cost next to nothing). This would consolidate the vast majority of first-gen Desiro UKs into SWT's hands. 87 new vehicles would be procured for LM and TPE to replace them.

There's no particular reason to do it that way, of course (although it might help keep BTUK afloat for a whole), but it could be done.

Has anyone mapped the already-planned rolling stock cascades post-Thameslink? I know originally the 319s were supposed to go to Oxford and TPE, but the delays in Thameslink procurement vs acceleration in electrification seem to have made that all a bit murky.

I agree with Jon Morris on the other point. Southern will cease to exist when the new Thameslink franchise is created, and we obviously don't know who the operator will be yet. There's no reason why the SN and LM fleets need to be consistent.

 

[RobShipway]

I wasn't being wholly serious.

That said, in theory - SWT needs about 100 new trains. There are 87 350s of the various classes in total (in practice, any modern EMU is dual voltage - adding DC equipment to the 350/2-4s would cost next to nothing). This would consolidate the vast majority of first-gen Desiro UKs into SWT's hands. 87 new vehicles would be procured for LM and TPE to replace them.

There's no particular reason to do it that way, of course (although it might help keep BTUK afloat for a whole), but it could be done.

Has anyone mapped the already-planned rolling stock cascades post-Thameslink? I know originally the 319s were supposed to go to Oxford and TPE, but the delays in Thameslink procurement vs acceleration in electrification seem to have made that all a bit murky.

I agree with Jon Morris on the other point. Southern will cease to exist when the new Thameslink franchise is created, and we obviously don't know who the operator will be yet. There's no reason why the SN and LM fleets need to be consistent.

The reasoning behind the Southern new trains procurement of class 377's is apparently to enable cascading to take place even though they would not be using the new 377's ordered according to the latest copy of Modern Railways. So you might have 5 car 377's replacing the most of the 3 car 185's where the TP lines have been electrified.

 

[IanXC]

Birdies are telling me that after initial operation the Government intends they be cascaded to whats now TPE North replacing the 185's after electrification.

Lets hope the SWT order is for a follow on of 444s then! Otherwise we're going to be stuck with 1/3 2/3 doors on TP North again!

Really whats needed is 444s for Liverpool-Newcastle and Manchester-Scotland, and 350s for services like Manchester Airport-York which would cover the smaller stops on the route.

 

[RobShipway]

Lets hope the SWT order is for a follow on of 444s then! Otherwise we're going to be stuck with 1/3 2/3 doors on TP North again!

Really whats needed is 444s for Liverpool-Newcastle and Manchester-Scotland, and 350s for services like Manchester Airport-York which would cover the smaller stops on the route.

Well, you are probably going to be unhappy then as the Class 377's that are being purchased by Southern are not for their use, but to enable cascading of trains to happen despite the delay to the Thameslink trains which could mean that the 377's replace the 185's where the TP routes have been electrified.

 

[Martin222002]

Well, you are probably going to be unhappy then as the Class 377's that are being purchased by Southern are not for their use, but to enable cascading of trains to happen despite the delay to the Thameslink trains which could mean that the 377's replace the 185's where the TP routes have been electrified.

I think you have misinterpreted what has been said. The 5 car 377/6s which Southern had ordered are for use on Southern services, with the addon order of 5 car duel voltage 377(/6s or /7s which ever they end up being) are to be used on the Southern services to Milton Keynes Central, which in turn will release some more of Southern's duel voltage 377/2s to be used on Thameslink services.

The new "tender" which Southern has put out on the behalf of the DfT is for up to 256 duel voltage EMU vehicles, in other words 64 duel voltage 4 car EMUs, capable of a max speed of 110mph. It has been said that these units will be used by Thameslink to replace 319s, so that they can move up to the north west to run services on the newly electrified north west triangle. Once the Siemems 700s are in service on Thameslink it has been said that these new "tender" EMUs "could" then be used on the newly electrified MML route to and North TPE routes.

As this is a new competitive tender for units which Southern will never use itself means that they wont necessarily be 377s. Also for an Electrostar to eligible for the tender then it would have to be able to run at 110mph in passenger service.

 

[Class377/5]

I think you have misinterpreted what has been said. The 5 car 377/6s which Southern had ordered are for use on Southern services, with the addon order of 5 car duel voltage 377(/6s or /7s which ever they end up being) are to be used on the Southern services to Milton Keynes Central, which in turn will release some more of Southern's duel voltage 377/2s to be used on Thameslink services.

The new "tender" which Southern has put out on the behalf of the DfT is for up to 256 duel voltage EMU vehicles, in other words 64 duel voltage 4 car EMUs, capable of a max speed of 110mph. It has been said that these units will be used by Thameslink to replace 319s, so that they can move up to the north west to run services on the newly electrified north west triangle. Once the Siemems 700s are in service on Thameslink it has been said that these new "tender" EMUs "could" then be used on the newly electrified MML route to and North TPE routes.

As this is a new competitive tender for units which Southern will never use itself means that they wont necessarily be 377s. Also for an Electrostar to eligible for the tender then it would have to be able to run at 110mph in passenger service.

The eight 377/6 aren't planned to see regular Milton Keynes runs but are held in incase. The plan that's going around is. 6x 377/2 are off to Thameslink from next year once the London Bridge changes kick in with the new Thameslink timetable. That will release 6x 319 for the north west. That leaves Southern 6x 377/2 for the DV Milton Keynes run with one of the eight DV 377/6 sat around incase of unit failure.

With the future order likely to be part based on the next gen trains (like he 380 & 379 are), it'll be interesting what the offers are. Also been said on another forum that Bombardier are to test a 377/6 for a year prior to it going to Southern (could be a DV unit built early on and tested at 110mph).

Birdies are telling me that after initial operation the Government intends they be cascaded to whats now TPE North replacing the 185's after electrification.

The DfT website has said the same thing since day it was announced.

I wasn't being wholly serious.

That said, in theory - SWT needs about 100 new trains. There are 87 350s of the various classes in total (in practice, any modern EMU is dual voltage - adding DC equipment to the 350/2-4s would cost next to nothing). This would consolidate the vast majority of first-gen Desiro UKs into SWT's hands. 87 new vehicles would be procured for LM and TPE to replace them.

There's no particular reason to do it that way, of course (although it might help keep BTUK afloat for a whole), but it could be done.

Has anyone mapped the already-planned rolling stock cascades post-Thameslink? I know originally the 319s were supposed to go to Oxford and TPE, but the delays in Thameslink procurement vs acceleration in electrification seem to have made that all a bit murky.

I agree with Jon Morris on the other point. Southern will cease to exist when the new Thameslink franchise is created, and we obviously don't know who the operator will be yet. There's no reason why the SN and LM fleets need to be consistent.

Your confused. SWT is looking for 100 carriages in five car formation to provide 20 trains not 100.

Currently we know the 319s are destined for north west but not in what numbers. As for GW, rumours are they need 110mph EMU, making the 319s unsuitable.

 

[WatcherZero]

Your misinterpreting, what im specifically being told by those involved in the next stock plan is that the 377's not 319's will be used on North TPE to ensure enough 319's are available for the North West and elsewhere. In particular they are having second thoughts now about using the 315's in Wales and hedging against them being withdrawn and 319's used instead.

Though of course nothing is set in stone and the Government often changes its mind at the last minute and makes irrational politically motivated decisions.

 

[Class377/5]

Your misinterpreting, what im specifically being told by those involved in the next stock plan is that the 377's not 319's will be used on North TPE to ensure enough 319's are available for the North West and elsewhere. In particular they are having second thoughts now about using the 315's in Wales and hedging against them being withdrawn and 319's used instead.

Though of course nothing is set in stone and the Government often changes its mind at the last minute and makes irrational politically motivated decisions.

I think your confused again. Never ever been announced that the 319s were for TPE services, just Northern. (or whatever franchises are called then).

However by the time the '377' become spare TPE will be getting its own fleet as the order won't be enough to cover everything (even with 319s added).

As there's been no announcement on the 315, not sure you can count it as changing their minds, more rumours are shifting.

However your last point is very apt. One change of mind and the whole things out the window.

 

[Surreyman]

If we assume the order is for 20 5 car trains, where are they for?
If the Reading Line then presumably they will have doors at 1/3 & 2/3 spacing, allowing a max of 10 10 car trains, is this sufficient to run the Reading service?
I am under the impression that they currently use @ 26 (13 8 car) please correct me if you know otherwise.
Would make sense to move to a 12 car railway asap fro Reading line.
Or are they going to be more 444 type for Portsmouth & Weymouth routes?
Of course they could be for inner suburban lines as the 456 transfers will only allow for a few 455 trains to be lengthened to 10 car (24 max presumably), with a fleet of 91 455 (allowing for eng' spares) thats @ 40+ 8 car trains, of which only @ 22 (with a 456 attached) can be made up to 10 cars.
(yes I know about platforms 1- 4 at Waterloo but plans are being made and none of this is going to happen overnight).

 

[Class377/5]

If we assume the order is for 20 5 car trains, where are they for?
If the Reading Line then presumably they will have doors at 1/3 & 2/3 spacing, allowing a max of 10 10 car trains, is this sufficient to run the Reading service?
I am under the impression that they currently use @ 26 (13 8 car) please correct me if you know otherwise.
Would make sense to move to a 12 car railway asap fro Reading line.
Or are they going to be more 444 type for Portsmouth & Weymouth routes?
Of course they could be for inner suburban lines as the 456 transfers will only allow for a few 455 trains to be lengthened to 10 car (24 max presumably), with a fleet of 91 455 (allowing for eng' spares) thats @ 40+ 8 car trains, of which only @ 22 (with a 456 attached) can be made up to 10 cars.
(yes I know about platforms 1- 4 at Waterloo but plans are being made and none of this is going to happen overnight).

Idea is everything is a mimiumium of 10 cars rather than mix of 8, 10 or 12 cars.

 

[swt_passenger]

I haven't got very up to date 458 specific diagrams, but the whole fleet definitely isn't used on the Reading service, but once you have to allow for peak extras and maintenance spares I don't think a 20 x 5 car subfleet is adequate either.

But we really have no idea yet what they might want. What if they order a mix of '5th cars' to lengthen a sub fleet of 450s, (say about 28?) for the Waterloo - Reading services. Then maybe the remainder could be ordered as 4 car units to strengthen other routes to 12 car? By the time this happens a significant number of 456s are supposed to be operatimg the Ascot-Guildford shuttles in pairs - so they could be replaced by single 450s and the resulting number of main suburban side 455s be strengthened to 10 car.

I concur with Surreyman's workings that the 456s can only ever produce a maximum of about half what is needed for the the 455 operated services. But we also don't really know if 'inner suburban 10 car operation' actually means 'every train all day', or just some peak trains...

 

[Class377/5]

I haven't got very up to date 458 specific diagrams, but the whole fleet definitely isn't used on the Reading service, but once you have to allow for peak extras and maintenance spares I don't think a 20 x 5 car subfleet is adequate either.

But we really have no idea yet what they might want. What if they order a mix of '5th cars' to lengthen a sub fleet of 450s, (say about 28?) for the Waterloo - Reading services. Then maybe the remainder could be ordered as 4 car units to strengthen other routes to 12 car? By the time this happens a significant number of 456s are supposed to be operatimg the Ascot-Guildford shuttles in pairs - so they could be replaced by single 450s and the resulting number of main suburban side 455s be strengthened to 10 car.

I concur with Surreyman's workings that the 456s can only ever produce a maximum of about half what is needed for the the 455 operated services. But we also don't really know if 'inner suburban 10 car operation' actually means 'every train all day', or just some peak trains...

Is there the demand off peak for 10 cars? Southern's 10 cars is for peak. (Even the 377/6 are planned to be used on their own off peak).

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there the demand off peak for 10 cars? Southern's 10 cars is for peak. (Even the 377/6 are planned to be used on their own off peak).

Agreed - and that's the very issue. I believe SWT currently run 8 car 455s all day on weekdays only because it is easier than splitting and joining between the peaks. Apparently the reasoning was that splitting and joining needs more drivers, more paths and more stabling sidings at various points at the extremities of the routes. Presumably there's always a trade off between the extra cost of carrying a lot of empty space around all day, and the operational issues of splitting and joining.

Another solution might be to have 10 car all day on certain of the routes, and others nearly all 8 car except for a few peak extras. That still allows them to announce [some] 10 car operation on all routes, rather than 10 car on all services...

I guess we'll find out in about 2 or 3 years time?

 

[RobShipway]

I haven't got very up to date 458 specific diagrams, but the whole fleet definitely isn't used on the Reading service, but once you have to allow for peak extras and maintenance spares I don't think a 20 x 5 car subfleet is adequate either.

But we really have no idea yet what they might want. What if they order a mix of '5th cars' to lengthen a sub fleet of 450s, (say about 28?) for the Waterloo - Reading services. Then maybe the remainder could be ordered as 4 car units to strengthen other routes to 12 car? By the time this happens a significant number of 456s are supposed to be operatimg the Ascot-Guildford shuttles in pairs - so they could be replaced by single 450s and the resulting number of main suburban side 455s be strengthened to 10 car.

I concur with Surreyman's workings that the 456s can only ever produce a maximum of about half what is needed for the the 455 operated services. But we also don't really know if 'inner suburban 10 car operation' actually means 'every train all day', or just some peak trains...

There has been a few class 458 units stored in the sidings at Guildford and I know sometimes these are used alongside 450's on the Ascot - Guildford services.

 

[Monty]

There has been a few class 458 units stored in the sidings at Guildford and I know sometimes these are used alongside 450's on the Ascot - Guildford services.

In addition to their Waterloo-Reading duties, 458s are used on the Ascot-Guildford services quite frequently. There is also a peak time Aldershot to Waterloo service via Ascot that uses an 8 car 458 formation.

 

[Surreyman]

There has been a few class 458 units stored in the sidings at Guildford and I know sometimes these are used alongside 450's on the Ascot - Guildford services.

I was factoring in 2 458 units on Ascot - Guildford, as already mentioned
2 458s are parked in Guildford sidings each night, although in practice the Ascot route is often operated by 450s.

 

[Class377/5]

Not public the new Thameslink will be;

700/0 for 8 cars
700/1 for 12 cars

 

[D365]

I still think it should be 355, but hey! Ignore me.

 

[Class377/5]

I still think it should be 355, but hey! Ignore me.

Why 355?

 

[D365]

I still think it should be 355, but hey! Ignore me.

Why 355?

Crossrail is 345, fits in between 350/360 Desiro (although very different) and various other EMUs. Not the biggest concern though.

 

[Class377/5]

Crossrail is 345, fits in between 350/360 Desiro (although very different) and various other EMUs. Not the biggest concern though.

But the 700 isn't a Desiro, its the next generation. It's like the difference between a Networker and an Electrostar or 319 vs Networker family. It's not supposed to fit in because it doesn't. The 700 is a different Tain which built in capabilities not seen before on a UK train.

Not to mention the fact that Crossrail shouldn't be setting the policy just because TfL went for a number years before ever starting the order process.

 

[D365]

But the 700 isn't a Desiro, its the next generation. It's like the difference between a Networker and an Electrostar or 319 vs Networker family. It's not supposed to fit in because it doesn't. The 700 is a different Tain which built in capabilities not seen before on a UK train.

Not to mention the fact that Crossrail shouldn't be setting the policy just because TfL went for a number years before ever starting the order process.

That's point enough tbh.

 

[markskoda]

What is the latest situation? There seems to be very little press discussion of this matter. It could turn out to be a much bigger fiasco that the WCML saga.
The last I heard before I disappeared to the Czech countryside a few weeks ago was a lot of jargon about achieving "closure" whatever that means in plain English.

 

[Class377/5]

What is the latest situation? There seems to be very little press discussion of this matter. It could turn out to be a much bigger fiasco that the WCML saga.
The last I heard before I disappeared to the Czech countryside a few weeks ago was a lot of jargon about achieving "closure" whatever that means in plain English.

Its a 30 year deal so there are complex contracts to do. You'll be hearing shortly more.