Passengers Stuck on Seaford - Brighton service for SIX hours

[Flamingo]

The shoe was welded to the rail with also damage to the boogie. To move the unit it had be cut off.

Since this incident it has been decided to run 313's as 6 cars when snow/ice is forcast. One unit has to be locked out, perhaps thats were we can store all our stuff thats needed, toilets,books, crayons, dried food

Don't forget a dozen sherpa's to carry passengers and their luggage to the nearest taxi-rank

 

[sarahj]

Perhaps in out 3 coach emergency store we will need cold weather clothing, a selection of winter shoes in all sizes in case anyone is wearing high heels etc. A gas stove for heating meals, perhaps some sleeping bags, and last, but not least, condoms, you never know

 

[transmanche]

My point is that it is easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback about incidents.

Yes, you've thrown that accusation about before. But being as this is a discussion forum, it seems appropriate for people to, er, discuss the problem and suggest better solutions.

You say it is easier to sneer and just say that nothing can be done. It's even easier to sit on front of your computer and say "This, and that and the other must be done" without any thought as to the "Who?", "Where?"and "How?" of it being done (not to mention the one that really starts the argument, "Who is going to pay for and maintain it all").

No, I've made some sensible suggestions which (as it turns out) are in line with the official industry best practice guide GPG SP01.

All you are really short of saying is "If it's not done children will die!!!".

That comment doesn't even deserve a response.

NOBODY DIED, NOBODY WAS INJURED, NOBODY REQUIRED HOSPITILISATION AFTER IT, THEREFORE THEY MUST HAVE BEEN IN A SAFE LOCATION AND HAD ADEQUATE EQUIPMENT.

But it is completely unacceptable and demonstrates that lessons learned from previous incidents have not been acted upon.

But there are things around the rail network need sorting out and money spending on much more urgently than putting 400+ tin-foil blankets, 400+ bottles of water, and 400+ plastic bags for people to urinate in on every train in the country in the off-chance one of them may be stuck somewhere.

Who suggested that? No-one. A supply can be maintained in suitable locations (as suggested in GPG SP01). A couple of dozen foil blankets can be put on board a Coastway 313 when cold weather is forecast (and this weather was forecast well in advance). Because of the lack of toilets on a Coastway 313, then keeping a couple of dozen of the plastic bags on board all the time might not be a bad idea.

It seems that you disagree with your own industry's best practice guidelines. You might want to you speak to your employer to see if your suggestions can be used to update it.

Hell, tell us what you do for a living, and I can Google twenty different ways for you to do your job better as well (and find official reports to back this up and specify where there is poor performance), and then sit here all smug about how I had told your industry how to suck eggs!

Well I'm not smug. I'm just a customer who thinks it's a good idea for an industry to follow it's own best practice guidelines. Having a go at people just because they don't work in that industry really isn't very constructive.

The day you become a customer of my industry (and therefore have a stake in its performance) I'll be happy to take your suggestions for improvement. In the meantime, you can rest assured that no failing of my industry could ever cause you to become stranded in a freezing cold, dark place for six hours; with no food, water or toilet facilities.

 

[RobShipway]

Being someone that use to commute between Newhaven to Haywards Heath and grew up in East Sussex I used know that line quite well.

I would have personally if I was either working for Network Rail or Southern have had a class 73 on Standby either at Seaford if the platform is long enough to take a class 73 and a 3 car 313 on it or have it stabled somewhere along the line.

I know the Newhaven Harbour station has been taken away, but if the railway line too it is still there, then that for me what actually be the most sensible place to have a Class 73 or other loco on standby, if possible as the weather was predicted weeks in advance.

I just hope if there is more snow for Sussex over the weekend, that both NR and Southern have learned their lesson.

 

[bnm]

also damage to the boogie

So now we're blaming it on the boogie?

 

[A-driver]

My point is that it is easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback about incidents.

You say it is easier to sneer and just say that nothing can be done. It's even easier to sit on front of your computer and say "This, and that and the other must be done" without any thought as to the "Who?", "Where?"and "How?" of it being done (not to mention the one that really starts the argument, "Who is going to pay for and maintain it all"). All you are really short of saying is "If it's not done children will die!!!".

This incident seems to have been quite unique - it is the only train that has reported being stuck for this long a period that I have heard of, but as has been repeated ad nauseum, but I will repeat in large print for the hard of thinking: NOBODY DIED, NOBODY WAS INJURED, NOBODY REQUIRED HOSPITILISATION AFTER IT, THEREFORE THEY MUST HAVE BEEN IN A SAFE LOCATION AND HAD ADEQUATE EQUIPMENT.

This might also illustrate that none of the several hundred pounds (in both cost and weight) of equipment you seem to be so keen on seemed to be necessary.

There does need to be a review of how long this took to sort out - I somehow have a feeling that this will happen. It should not have taken so long - again, I'd guess the people directly involved will receive an apology and compensation, which they deserve.

But there are things around the rail network need sorting out and money spending on much more urgently than putting 400+ tin-foil blankets, 400+ bottles of water, and 400+ plastic bags for people to urinate in on every train in the country in the off-chance one of them may be stuck somewhere.

Hell, tell us what you do for a living, and I can Google twenty different ways for you to do your job better as well (and find official reports to back this up and specify where there is poor performance), and then sit here all smug about how I had told your industry how to suck eggs!

You are wasting your breath there. I have asked similar posters to provide details of their own jobs for ages and none have so far.

But your post there sums this thread up really-the keyboard warriors who have read the rule book on line aswell as the one sided factually weak press reports and think they know it all love these kind of threads and it seems pointless for those of us with the experience, real knowledge and training to try and argue with them.

You and I know the reality of these kind of situations and how the 'rules' and 'official guidlines' play out in reality and along with other train crew on here we have explained why things happen in the way they do but the google know alls on here will still insist they know best no matter what.

 

[A-driver]

Well I'm not smug. I'm just a customer who thinks it's a good idea for an industry to follow it's own best practice guidelines. Having a go at people just because they don't work in that industry really isn't very constructive.

The day you become a customer of my industry (and therefore have a stake in its performance) I'll be happy to take your suggestions for improvement. In the meantime, you can rest assured that no failing of my industry could ever cause you to become stranded in a freezing cold, dark place for six hours; with no food, water or toilet facilities.

Yet you still refuse to tell us what you do for a living! Sums it up really.

So you have read an online official railway guide and now know it all. Well done, I suppose you were right all along and we should all listen to you from now on.

 

[Zoidberg]

...

Since this incident it has been decided to run 313's as 6 cars when snow/ice is forcast. One unit has to be locked out, perhaps thats were we can store all our stuff thats needed, toilets,books, crayons, dried food

I'm sure that it's obvious to many here, but how will this help? Is it because it provides additional connection points with the live rail?

 

[Flamingo]

I'm sure that it's obvious to many here, but how will this help? Is it because it provides additional connection points with the live rail?

No, it's because it gives an extra carriage to carry 300 blankets, extra emergency toilets, 300 pairs of snowshoes, 300 ski suits in assorted sizes, Colouring books, decks of cards and a little old lady from the WRVS with a tea urn

 

[Zoidberg]

No, it's because it gives an extra carriage to carry 300 blankets, extra emergency toilets, 300 pairs of snowshoes, 300 ski suits in assorted sizes, Colouring books, decks of cards and a little old lady from the WRVS with a tea urn

Now I'm not sure if sarahj was joking and I'm in a 'hook line and sinker' situation.

 

[jon0844]

Just watched the news showing hundreds of motorists stranded overnight on the M6. Only ONE person rescued while the rest fended for themselves and slept in their vehicles.

I thought I heard that motorists were always rescued in a matter of minutes on here? Funny how reality didn't quite match up to those words.

I guess staying in the car/lorry was deemed the safest move too. And obviously every motorist and passenger had prepared for such a situation as they're advised to. Just like this train, nobody died.

 

[sarahj]

Being serious for a moment (puts on 100% polyester uniform)

Yes, we have been running 6 car 313's when we expect snow/ice.
The rear unit has to be locked out. Which is of course causing joy on late night west coasters, where we go via Littlehampton. So you have to get everyone off one unit and into another. And to add to the fun the bil lights light up on all 12 doors, even though you can get on only 6 of them. Causes endless joy for all :roll:
I took a peek in the emergency area the other night and noted they now have 3 blankets, so 6 per unit, though i think the rope might be just as handy

On another note, I like the sound of a tea lady

 

[Zoidberg]

Being serious for a moment (puts on 100% polyester uniform)

Yes, we have been running 6 car 313's when we expect snow/ice.
The rear unit has to be locked out. Which is of course causing joy on late night west coasters, where we go via Littlehampton. So you have to get everyone off one unit and into another. And to add to the fun the bill lights light up on all 12 doors, even though you can get on only 6 of them. Causes endless joy for all :roll:
I took a peel in the emergency area the other night and noted they now have 3 blankets, so 6 per unit, though i think the rope might be just as handy

On another note, I like the sound of a tea lady

Ah, thanks, so it's and "escape train" rather than something being done to help prevent a train becoming stuck in snow.

 

[sarahj]

Must have missed a gap in my post..

Its to help trains run better in snow and ice, more pick ups, more motors.





The emergency section is on all units, 2 per unit. Cannot realy call is a cupboard as its just a bit behind the drivers cab. There is a saw in there as well, guess for any emergency amputations.

 

[Zoidberg]

Must have missed a gap in my post..

Its to help trains run better in snow and ice, more pick ups, more motors.

The emergency section is on all units, 2 per unit. Cannot realy call is a cupboard as its just a bit behind the drivers cab. There is a saw in there as well, guess for any emergency amputations.

Thanks again sarahj

 

[transmanche]

Yet you still refuse to tell us what you do for a living! Sums it up really.

Because this is a railway forum. The place to discuss my industry is on a forum dedicated to that industry. What I do for a living is of no relevance to this discussion. You're just trying to drag the thread off-topic because you don't like what you hear.

So you have read an online official railway guide and now know it all. Well done, I suppose you were right all along and we should all listen to you from now on.

Working for the railway does not give you a monopoly on wisdom.

You can dismiss the opinion of non-railway workers for daring to disagree with you if you want. Sometimes a fresh perspective is what's needed to solve a problem.

 

[pendolino]

The emergency section is on all units, 2 per unit. Cannot realy call is a cupboard as its just a bit behind the drivers cab. There is a saw in there as well, guess for any emergency amputations.

The saws are for cutting away the (wooden) shoe beam should this become damaged in service (and have also been used in the past when a tree has fallen across the line), and the rope for tying damaged shoe gear up out of the way.

377s now have glowsticks and wind up torches in the emergency cupboard as well as foil blankets and hot weather door kits for when the weather goes to the other extreme. Much better equipped, but there is a lot more storage space compared to 313/455/456.

 

[sarahj]

I've used the rope once on a 313 when one of the straps holding the ladder up broke and it became loose. The foil blanckets were put in the 377's 3 years ago after bad snow and trains getting stuck. The ones on the 313's are in little pouches and not just a bit of foil lying on the floor next to the ramp as per a 377.

SJ

 

[transmanche]

377s now have glowsticks and wind up torches in the emergency cupboard as well as foil blankets and hot weather door kits for when the weather goes to the other extreme.

Excellent news. Good to see that simple practical steps are being taken - despite the sneering of some workers in the industry.

 

[ushawk]

Being someone that use to commute between Newhaven to Haywards Heath and grew up in East Sussex I used know that line quite well.

I would have personally if I was either working for Network Rail or Southern have had a class 73 on Standby either at Seaford if the platform is long enough to take a class 73 and a 3 car 313 on it or have it stabled somewhere along the line.

I know the Newhaven Harbour station has been taken away, but if the railway line too it is still there, then that for me what actually be the most sensible place to have a Class 73 or other loco on standby, if possible as the weather was predicted weeks in advance.

I just hope if there is more snow for Sussex over the weekend, that both NR and Southern have learned their lesson.

Southern/GatEx have ONE 73 and trains could have been stuck anywhere. If it was to be based anywhere during severe weather, it would be better for the London area.

Once again ill reiterate that the weather was very snowy and icy, evacuating down a steep embankment with no steps and a fence at the bottom is hardly a good idea.

Regarding the 6-car 313s - what would happen for the Seaford line as 6 cars aren't allowed down there - would they be replaced by 377s ?

Also, the train DID have emergency power, but that stopped after an hour. The train only had 16 on board too, so the train crew I believe moved them all into 1 coach (probably at the front of the train, away from the makeshift loo at the back !!)

 

[RobShipway]

Southern/GatEx have ONE 73 and trains could have been stuck anywhere. If it was to be based anywhere during severe weather, it would be better for the London area.

Once again ill reiterate that the weather was very snowy and icy, evacuating down a steep embankment with no steps and a fence at the bottom is hardly a good idea.

Regarding the 6-car 313s - what would happen for the Seaford line as 6 cars aren't allowed down there - would they be replaced by 377s ?

Also, the train DID have emergency power, but that stopped after an hour. The train only had 16 on board too, so the train crew I believe moved them all into 1 coach (probably at the front of the train, away from the makeshift loo at the back !!)

I take your point, but when I grew up in Sussex through the 1970's/80's we did have a good few heavy snow showers and it was icy as it was last week, but I don't remember hearing about anyone getting stuck on the Seaford - Brighton line. However, I think did have a class 33 or 73 based at the depot in Brighton then which could be adapted to have a snow plough on to enable the line to be kept clear for trains following on behind it and it was run if my memory is correct a good few times on the section between Brighton and Lewes when it snowed heavily. So my question is, if my memory is correct why has neither Southern or NR done the same?

 

[A-driver]

Because this is a railway forum. The place to discuss my industry is on a forum dedicated to that industry. What I do for a living is of no relevance to this discussion. You're just trying to drag the thread off-topic because you don't like what you hear.

Working for the railway does not give you a monopoly on wisdom.

You can dismiss the opinion of non-railway workers for daring to disagree with you if you want. Sometimes a fresh perspective is what's needed to solve a problem.

You can't just criticise my industry without being fair and letting us criticise yours aswell.

And I don't think working for the railway gives me a monopoly on wisdom but it gives me far more knowledge and experience than someone who has read a few PDFs online and suddenly thinks they know it all. The train crew on here have explained why things are done why they were and your fresh perspective on things isn't really much help for the reasons people have said.

And this isn't really a problem that needs fixing-it was an unfortunate series of events that led to it-they will learn things from it but its not like its an everyday occurrence.

All those people who were stranded in cars last night up north-same thing, was an unfortunate series io events which inconvenienced people. They to were stranded for hours with no food, water, toilets unless they brought their own.

 

[Flamingo]

Excellent news. Good to see that simple practical steps are being taken - despite the sneering of some workers in the industry.

Who has been sneering at the official policy? Stocks of emergency supplies for major incidents are held by local authorities, and are deployed when required for railway-related incidents. There is a lot of interaction between TOC's and local authorities, and the emergency services (including Red Cross, WRVS etc), with regular exercises (both paper and real-time) to rehearse for dealing with these incidents.

The fact that these stores are held, and exercises and discussions take place without asking permission off "stakeholders" (as you so grandiosely title yourself) or informing "stakeholders" of their existence is not relevant. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Your problem is that you come on here, as A Driver has said, having read a few PDF's, without having any real understanding of the contents, implementation or implications of their contents, and start slagging off all and sundry within the industry as being too lazy or stupid to implement measures that (believe me better trained and experienced) staff have already acted upon, might get up the nose of a few "sneering" staff.

Did it ever occur to you that the staff might be inclined to sneer at these suggestions as they already have some idea of the requirements and what is in place, and don't really need amateurs telling us how to do our job?

Sensible suggestions are always welcome - make them to the TOC. not an online forum if anybody feels they have that much to contribute. Somebody thinking that they have all the answers just because they have bought a train ticket is not. As you have pointed out, it is an online discussion forum - which means that people with a little more knowledge may consider your contribution to the discussion to be not very helpful, and say so.

 

[Wath Yard]

All those people who were stranded in cars last night up north-same thing, was an unfortunate series io events which inconvenienced people. They to were stranded for hours with no food, water, toilets unless they brought their own.

They were stranded because there was reportedly 1 foot of snow in 2 hours. Those conditions are not comparable to the conditions at Falmer.

 

[RobShipway]

Rather than sneering at other, can I make the suggestion that we keep to the point of this thread.

Whether the individuals of this forum are within the Railway industry or not does not matter, what matters is that we should have respect for each other and each others points of view. We can all help by making the railways better together whether it is for the dedicated staff that I have met over the years that I have travelled on trains that work within the railway industry or those that travel on a regular basis or people like me that travel on trains from time to time.

 

[455driver]

The shoe was welded to the rail

Surely then it had power so all the cold/dark etc comments are wrong, or can somebody explain how a train (with no power) managed to weld itself to the con rail?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Rather than sneering at other, can I make the suggestion that we keep to the point of this thread.

As the point of this thread was lost ages ago by the "I would de-train myself because I had a torch and am important"/ "why could supplies be airlifted in/ sent by husky" brigade the rest of the thread is irrelevant.

Can you point me too a thread which has not gone seriously off topic within 2 pages please because I havent seen one.

 

[RobShipway]

Surely then it had power so all the cold/dark etc comments are wrong, or can somebody explain how a train (with no power) managed to weld itself to the con rail?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As the point of this thread was lost ages ago by the "I would de-train myself because I had a torch and am important"/ "why could supplies be airlifted in/ sent by husky" brigade the rest of the thread is irrelevant.

Can you point me too a thread which has not gone seriously off topic within 2 pages please because I havent seen one.

I am not going to name names, but making postings that are no more than arguments as to whether someone that is not in the railway industry should not post ideas is or that people in the railway industry are seeing sense does not help and are not in line with people getting stuck on a train for 5 hours!

 

[A-driver]

They were stranded because there was reportedly 1 foot of snow in 2 hours. Those conditions are not comparable to the conditions at Falmer.

So you are saying that if more snow had fallen on the south coast then the 6 hour delay would be acceptable? You seem to have failed to understand what the problem actually was which caused the delay. And the difference between a road (concrete flat safe surface) and a railway (ballast which is near impossible to walk on in sturdy boots, trip hazards, ankle height 750v rails, live signalling and power cables along side, steep embankments etc).

 

[Wath Yard]

I've failed to understand? You're the one making a comparison between road and rail. By the way, the conditions around Wigan also affected rail, with a unit hitting the OHLE which had been brought down, and despite the conditions being so attrocious and the fact it was late at night they were still rescued in a lot less than 6 hours.

 

[transmanche]

Who has been sneering at the official policy? Stocks of emergency supplies for major incidents are held by local author

Er, you. With your mocking comments about having to carry 400 units of blankets/water/plastic bags.

The fact that these stores are held, and exercises and discussions take place without asking permission off "stakeholders" (as you so grandiosely title yourself) or informing "stakeholders" of their existence is not relevant. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

When did I say I needed permission. And yes I am a stakeholder. I am a customer - "A person or organisation with a legitimate interest in a given situation, action or enterprise".

Your problem is that you come on here, as A Driver has said, having read a few PDF's, without having any real understanding of the contents, implementation or implications of their contents, and start slagging off all and sundry within the industry as being too lazy or stupid to implement measures that (believe me better trained and experienced) staff have already acted upon, might get up the nose of a few "sneering" staff.

I haven't "slagged off all and sundry". I do question the rather complacent attitude shown by some on here, who seem to feel that all is perfect and nothing needs to be improved upon.

But as you've admirably demonstrated, it's far easier to have a go at people then enter into constructive dialogue - which surely is the point of a forum... to discuss.