Passengers Stuck on Seaford - Brighton service for SIX hours

[transmanche]

I am not sure about this 'call a local farmer' idea. For one, call who?

If all else fals, look in the Yellow Pages... :roll:

 

[jon0844]

Does the yellow pages list farmers by land ownership and geographical location?

(Why am I even responding to this!)

 

[AndyLandy]

Does the yellow pages list farmers by land ownership and geographical location?

(Why am I even responding to this!)

We can keep an emergency copy with the emergency blankets inside the emergency toilets we're going to build.

 

[transmanche]

(Why am I even responding to this!)

I don't know, I clearly wasn't being serious. :roll:

But the point still stands. If necessary, you have someone in a Network Rail Land Rover drive up to the farm and knock on the door!

We're not talking snowmagedden here; only, what, 2-3 inches of snow. I refuse to believe that leaving people on a cold, dark train for up to six hours is the best solution.

Some creative thinking from someone with authority is all that is needed. Something that the railway clearly seems unable to deliver.

 

[thaitransit]

5 hours stuck on a train is ridiculous.

If that had happened in melbourne australia most passengers would have forced the doors after about 30 minutes and just walked the track back to nearest level crossing and either got a cab/lift or found a local bus.

As for why the next DMU that was due to pass the area could not have run as empty cars (lightens the load) from the station before couple and drag it back to the station.

I have personally experienced a much larger rail incident in my years of using trains. Where the carriage i was in totally derailed at 1.25am which rendered the train stuck in the middle of nowhere with no local road access to the tracks for miles around as it was in forest area.

They made everyone from the damaged half of the train move into the front half and run with the front 10 cars only to the next station. Where after a 4 hour wait a special train was provided for us to continue our trip.

That special train and loco had never run on that line before and the special train crew didn't even speak the same language as the local crew. But in extreme circumstances anything that gets the passengers moving is at least tried.

The restoration of normal service should always be a priority over any other central office concerns. All of the situations of this nature i have been involved in have been arranged between the local stations and signal boxes all organized over the train radio system in a matter of 15 minutes.

As for people suing do what most business and high profile people do in Thailand and that is have everything set up in nominee company's with hundreds of separate layers of ownership than make tracing almost impossible. Plus they have there money in offshore accounts as standard practice in countries that have no legal agreement with Thailand for information sharing. That is done to protect there families and finances from unfair legal or government action regardless of fault.

 

[455driver]

As for why the next DMU that was due to pass the area could not have run as empty cars (lightens the load) from the station before couple and drag it back to the station.

Probably because the class 171 diesel units have a totally different coupler (Dellner 12) to the 313s (tightlock)!:roll:

 

[thaitransit]

Why would they use different couplers on different lines?

In my country all trains use the same auto coupler regardless of type ie shunters, locomotives and DMU. It seems like someone stuffed up many years ago and didn't order trains that matched the existing standard.

 

[Manchester77]

Why would they use different couplers on different lines?

In my country all trains use the same auto coupler regardless of type ie shunters, locomotives and DMU. It seems like someone stuffed up many years ago and didn't order trains that matched the existing standard.

Maybe because a 313 was built in the early 70s and a 171/377 most of southern's fleet built in the past 10 years?

Also why would in this case they have opened the doors?
On board it'd be warmer (even without heating), safer, no risk of electrocution or slipping

 

[AndyLandy]

We're not talking snowmagedden here; only, what, 2-3 inches of snow. I refuse to believe that leaving people on a cold, dark train for up to six hours is the best solution.

I think by UK standards, 2-3 inches of snow really is snowmageddon (nice word, btw!) This country really isn't equipped to deal with snow (and rightly so, since we see so little of it.) I can understand why detraining passengers in such conditions would be undesirable.

I do however think that leaving passengers on a train for six hours is unreasonable. I would hope that the management of the organisations involved would look to ways of improving that should any similar occurences take place in future. Realistically, a solution for those passengers should have emerged in under three hours, and ideally under two.

 

[Tomnick]

Why would they use different couplers on different lines?

In my country all trains use the same auto coupler regardless of type ie shunters, locomotives and DMU. It seems like someone stuffed up many years ago and didn't order trains that matched the existing standard.

Unfortunately, any concept of standardisation went out of the window a good few years ago. I'm not sure whether that was a result of privatisation or not, but that can't have helped. It certainly doesn't make it any easier to assist a failed train (although, if the suggestion on WNXX is true, it wouldn't be any good anyway if the shoes had welded themselves to the third rail!).

 

[the sniper]

We'll never know if you would have been damned if you did because the fact is you didn't. In fact you didn’t seem to do very much at all.

I'm bemused by your post. Have you read the thread? To me it seems the crew did what they could, including opening up the gangway door to use as a makeshift toilet. Sarahj said earlier in the thread that she had been told that the passengers on the train were 'as good as gold', which suggests to me that the staff handled them well.

Unless you're suggesting that the driver and guard should have taken it upon themselves to de-train the men, women and children, in the dark, onto snowy/icy ballast without the authority of NR or their TOC Control?

 

[Zoidberg]

I'm bemused by your post. ...|

I may be mistaken, but I took Wath Yard's remarks to apply to "the railway" rather than to the train crew i.e. as has been said by many, greater efforts ought to have been made by "the railway" to have this incident concluded long before six hours had elapsed.

This applies to the comments in post #119, too.

 

[rebmcr]

I think by UK standards, 2-3 inches of snow really is snowmageddon (nice word, btw!) This country really isn't equipped to deal with snow (and rightly so, since we see so little of it.)

It's more the fact that the temperature doesn't stay below 0°C — it keeps going up and down, which makes ice a much bigger problem than it would be in a colder country.

 

[ryan125hst]

We had lighting and air conditioning, except for the many times we had to be de-iced when it had to be turned off. At these times, we ended up sweating away and it was very uncomfortable. We only had one or two hand-outs of water in the whole time, and no in-flight entertainment system!

We were one of the last planes to get out of New York before it was closed for 2-3 days (this was back in 2003, and also Virgin) so if we'd got off the plane - officially - I am sure we'd have been stranded there. Nevertheless, plenty of people were uncomfortable and wanted to go back to the gate.

That wasn't as bad as the passengers on the 313 as you had lights, air conditioning, water and, i'm guessing, toilets. It still can't have been pleasant. It's strange really that we are all happy to sit on a plane or train for hours on end (some sleeper trains go on for days), yet once we are on it but not going anywhere for a few hours, we want to get off! It must be the fact that we are stuck in a metal box or tube not going anywhere that does it.

Thirdly provide one toilet of a very basic dump design, that can be used without electricity, and designed such that the waste drops directly on the track, without need of flushing water.
Such a basic facility is not suitable for daily use on todays railway but one per train, locked out of use normally would be valuable in case of prolonged breakdown. Keep it locked normally, and store blankets, reserve toilet paper, bottled water, and battery lanterns in there for emergency use.

I'm lost on this concept of a basic toilet. for one thing, it would have to be wheelchair useable. Imagine the outcry. train stuck for 6 hours, but cause person was in wheelchair, unable to use toilet. Plus, once it was known a toilet was on the train, people would want to use it even when the train was not stuck, I can imagine the arguments.

It wouldn't work for the 313's as there would be no point in providing a toilet for emergency use only. The best option in this scenario would be keeping some of those urinal bags onboard. This idea might work on trains with toilets that require power to work, such as class 377's. They would operate normally until the train lost power. The driver or guard could then operate a lever that directs the toilet waste onto the track, bypassing the normal vacuum system and allowing the waste to discharge onto the track.

You would also need a way of controlling the flush and the water (I think it's electronic on vacuum toilets). Is this possible? It would only need to be installed on one toilet per unit.

As for the issue with the wheelchair users, would a wheelchair user be able to detrain if required? Are wheelchair users able to break the glass of a train window after a crash if they need to get out the train? While trains are now becoming more accessible, I don't think it would be possible for them to be completely accessible in an emergency situation.

So because of the H&S trying to cover every possible eventuality we are left with people being stuck on the train for 6 hours with (seemingly) nothing happening.

Dont hate the player, hate the game.

It's health and safetly gone mad again! It snowed on Monday, no more than a few centimeters, yet they closed my Post 16 Centre and the other three secondary schools in the area. We had less snow on Monday than we did on Friday night, but they still didn't want us to go in. The daft part about it is the fact that it is more dangerous when the snow starts to melt and then freezes. It was a nightmare last winter trying to get to and from Post 16 without falling over and breaking a bone because it was like a skating rink. They didn't close the schools then thought.

The ironic thing is the fact that they are probably closing the schools so the schools can't be sued if someone is injured trying to get in! People are more likely to hurt themselves when the paths are like skating rinks- it's easier to walk in the snow!

 

[broadgage]

I'm lost on this concept of a basic toilet. for one thing, it would have to be wheelchair useable. Imagine the outcry. train stuck for 6 hours, but cause person was in wheelchair, unable to use toilet. Plus, once it was known a toilet was on the train, people would want to use it even when the train was not stuck, .

SJ

I am not certain that a basic emergency toilet would have to be wheelchair suitable.
It would be a very basic emergency only facility and not suitable for either wheelchairs or normal use.
Trains carry short ladders, presumably to assist in evacuation to track level, are these wheelchair accesable ?

I would deter any suggestion that the toilet can be used normally by
1) keep it locked, requires both a key and the breaking of a break glass panel to open it.
2) it is full of bottled water, blankets, glowsticks, battery lanterns and other supplies, and simply can not be used without moving these.
3) the waste goes directly onto the track which is prohibited except in an emergency.
4) you cant flush it, nor wash your hands as no water is provided.

 

[dcsprior]

I'm surprised there was no self-detraining.

Where would the passengers have gone to? Dark, cold, third rail, snow, etc... Unless someone could phone a friend to try and pick them up off the A27 dual carriageway (which a passenger could only get to by going down a steep embankment, over fences, through fields etc) it would have been a quite a walk back to Lewes or on to Brighton. They could hardly have tried to get another train and buses may not have been running.

This is where the train was stuck. In the summer, a quick hop over a fence, scramble down an embankment, through a field etc...but on a dark, cold, snowy, winter's night....

That location is 600 yards walk from some holiday cottages, walk that far then call a taxi to collect you.

Surely, you can easily walk that distance (only 100 yards of it is off-road) when there's not even six inches of snow?

Mind you, seeing as my southern English colleagues felt that last weeks weather was so bad they needed to dress as if going on a polar exhibition, it doesn't surprise me that no-one tried it

Pretty sure I wouldn't have just sat on the train for someone else to come and get me.

 

[jon0844]

Visiting local cottages, calling out the local farmer... are these serious suggestions?

Can't anyone imagine how slippery it would likely be on the track with any amount of snow, potentially becoming ice if it melted? Slippery rails, sleepers, ballast and drops/dips that might be hidden.. as well as other trip hazards and things to climb over to get off the line - as well as the new hazards of walking down embankments, along fields etc.

Unless I was wearing proper boots, I'd not want to do that in a hurry!

Even in daylight, on a bright, sunny, warm clear day, you'd have to consider this a last resort as someone is bound to trip. Would people bring all their bags or be told to leave them on the train? Rest assured, some would refuse to leave anything behind so you'd now be watching them lug their suitcases along too - which, from experience, I can say don't even like being dragged on a level surface in snow. More chaos, and you still have to do something with all these passengers when they get to a station - and if personal possessions were left behind, how do you deal with that? What's the reckoning that it would later transpire that just about every passenger had left a brand new iPad on the train, which had gone missing?

Where has all the common sense gone? Stay on the train! Yes, six hours was too long and that needs to be looked at, but nobody died. In the grand scheme of things, six hours isn't much of your life wasted. You'll get over it. Most people should have been prepared for delays when the warnings of snow first came last week. You can't take on Mother Nature and expect to win, so just accept it for a few days of the year.

We had friends that arrived 7 hours late at Heathrow on Friday, coming from a very snowy Stockholm airport, and they were surprised at the problems we had - but accepted that Heathrow had less capacity when I explained. Their airline had merged 2-3 flights into one by moving them on to a much bigger flight, so at least they got to understand why this had been done (the airline, just like many TOCs, failed to explain things - a bit of an own goal if you ask me as people can accept things if they're given truthful explanations).

On the Sunday when they went back, the same happened so they flew at 7pm instead of midday. They accepted it, and joked that they wouldn't have the same problems at home - but only because their airport wasn't running to capacity, not because of the weather itself.

Do we know that if someone had been taken ill, Southern wouldn't have taken action to get them off quickly? Getting one or two people off is a lot easier than the whole train, including those who might not be dressed warm enough or have inappropriate shoes, needing additional assistance.

 

[dcsprior]

Visiting local cottages, calling out the local farmer... are these serious suggestions?

I wasn't suggesting visiting the cottages, I meant that they'd be a recognisable address that you could book a taxi from.

Can't anyone imagine how slippery it would likely be on the track with any amount of snow, potentially becoming ice if it melted?

Yes, don't think that walking along the track would be the best way - I would leave the train by the side door closest to the road, and walk down the embankment.

Unless I was wearing proper boots, I'd not want to do that in a hurry!

Even in daylight, on a bright, sunny, warm clear day, you'd have to consider this a last resort as someone is bound to trip.

[...]

Where has all the common sense gone? Stay on the train!

I think you're overstating the risk. Yes, it would be risky in these litigious times for the railway to tell passengers to take a route out which could potentially be hazardous, but if individuals want to take this (relatively small) risk themselves, then I think this is fine.

 

[jon0844]

It's not even about passengers slipping, falling and taking legal action - it's just the fact that they might actually hurt themselves in the first place (and now need to be attended to in a rather awkward location).. and they'd also be carrying all their stuff too, which is bound to cause problems.

As for booking taxis from the cottages, that's fine - but you sort of need to get the passengers there to get in the taxis, no?

 

[transmanche]

Visiting local cottages, calling out the local farmer... are these serious suggestions?

Well, at least people are considering alternatives other than keeping passengers on a freezing cold, dark train for up to six hours! The weather would have to be a lot worse before being stuck in that situation for so long becomes remotely acceptable. Remember we're talking just a couple of inches of snow - not six feet!

Look back at the original news report and the passenger's comment that:

“Southern did not seem to know what they were doing. Their plans kept changing every five minutes."​

This speaks to a lack of ownership and poor communication within the railway.

Even if you think that approaching a local farmer for help is a stupid idea (I don't, it seems a perfectly suitable way of rescuing stranded passengers) then they could still be used to bring some comfort in the form of hot drinks and blankets to the passengers. For god's sake even the local WI would be able to organise that!

Leaving them stranded for that long is pathetic. Any system which allows that is fundamentally flawed and needs changing. Now.

 

[dcsprior]

It's not even about passengers slipping, falling and taking legal action - it's just the fact that they might actually hurt themselves in the first place (and now need to be attended to in a rather awkward location).. and they'd also be carrying all their stuff too, which is bound to cause problems.

Yes there's a (very small) risk to individuals' safety if they walk over the fields, so leave it to the individuals to decide whether to take this risk or not.

It's generally accepted that doing something that's not completely safe is up to the individual to decide, so long as the only person risking being hurt is that individual.

One example of this is that red men on pedestrian crossings are only advisory (because if you ignore them, you're only risking your own safety) but at traffic lights red lights are mandatory (because if you ignore them, you're also risking the safety of others).

One obvious and big exception to the above is in a workplace environment.

As for booking taxis from the cottages, that's fine - but you sort of need to get the passengers there to get in the taxis, no?

If by the "you" in that sentence above you mean the train company, then no you don't need to get the passengers there. If they choose to get themselves there then that's fine; if they choose to wait six hours for an official solution, then that's fine too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To clarify, what I'm advocating is unlocking the side doors on the side of the train nearest the road, then making an announcement like "For your comfort, we've unlocked the side doors on one side of the train. We strongly recommend that you do not exit via these doors and walk to the main road, as although it is only 100 yards it is unlit, down a steep embankment and over fields"

 

[A-driver]

Are people seriously trying to come out with these ridiculous suggestions?! This is turning into one of the most entertaining threads I have read on here!

If you are stranded on a train in poor weather then its one of those thing. Yes it appears that there were problems with organising the rescue but never the less it was being organised. If you get stuck on the motorway in poor weather as often happens then you don't bail out and leave your car there, you stay in it until the police get things moving again, same on a train, or a cruise liner or ferry etc.

As for emergancy toilets-if they had room to put toilets in trains they would, the fact is on certain routes they don't have the room which is why trains had toilets removed and new builds havnt had them included. Plus you can't just have a hole in the train floor-there s load of equipment underneath.

Sounds like there were problems with the rescue but when the conductor rail freezes and strands a train between stations it's definately better to keep people on the train, full stop.

 

[dcsprior]

Are people seriously trying to come out with these ridiculous suggestions?! This is turning into one of the most entertaining threads I have read on here!

If you are stranded on a train in poor weather then its one of those thing.

There are some places and conditions that I wouldn't feel confident in being able to reach safety if it were only 100 yards away, and would just sit for six hours, but I don't think this would've been one of them

 

[455driver]

Yes, don't think that walking along the track would be the best way - I would leave the train by the side door closest to the road, and walk down the embankment.

A 6ft drop into snow and ice?

You wont be walking anywhere sunshine and dont think the crew will be leaving the train to rescue you either, plus the fact your fellow passengers will be most impressed that they now have a 6ft wide hole in the side of the train letting all the heat out and cold in! :roll:

Maybe they could scramble a rescue helicopter, dont think anyone has mentioned that yet!

 

[jon0844]

Look back at the original news report and the passenger's comment that:

“Southern did not seem to know what they were doing. Their plans kept changing every five minutes."​

This speaks to a lack of ownership and poor communication within the railway.

Sound more like someone grossly exaggerating. If Southern was changing its mind every five minutes, for six hours, it's no wonder nothing got done. I wonder how many different options they were changing between?

Clearly someone thought that people would stay on the train unless there was a genuine emergency, which didn't happen (so we don't know what they'd have done and can't judge either way) and there was a plan to rescue the train, which for whatever reason took a long time.

There DOES need to be an investigation into that, but keeping people on the train was still the best option given the circumstances - or until those circumstances changed. As it didn't and there are reports the passengers were as 'good as gold', I don't think this was a disaster at all. It was a big inconvenience that Southern can deal with by way of a big apology, detailed explanation of what went wrong (and how they might try and avoid it happening again). Perhaps include some vouchers as a gesture of goodwill and move on.

 

[455driver]

To clarify, what I'm advocating is unlocking the side doors on the side of the train nearest the road, then making an announcement like "For your comfort, we've unlocked the side doors on one side of the train. We strongly recommend that you do not exit via these doors and walk to the main road, as although it is only 100 yards it is unlit, down a steep embankment and over fields"

The mere fact that the train crew have unlocked the door (against the rules, which are there to protect people, anyway) and made that announcement makes them liable!

You really dont have a clue how litigation works have you! :roll:

 

[jon0844]

To clarify, what I'm advocating is unlocking the side doors on the side of the train nearest the road, then making an announcement like "For your comfort, we've unlocked the side doors on one side of the train. We strongly recommend that you do not exit via these doors and walk to the main road, as although it is only 100 yards it is unlit, down a steep embankment and over fields"

I'd be VERY careful about the wording if you did that. There's the risk that you're still encouraging people to get off, and authorising it. I bet the injury lawyers would still seek to find the person who said that, or the company s/he works for, responsible.

Maybe if people signed a disclaimer? Of course, nobody is going to draw up legal documents on a train and I bet the media and the 'where will it end?' brigade would have a field day if they knew TOCs had paperwork to get passengers to sign away any rights to claim if injured..

A 6ft drop into snow and ice?

You wont be walking anywhere sunshine and dont think the crew will be leaving the train to rescue you either, plus the fact your fellow passengers will be most impressed that they now have a 6ft wide hole in the side of the train letting all the heat out and cold in! :roll:

Maybe they could scramble a rescue helicopter, dont think anyone has mentioned that yet!

A 6 foot drop for the passenger, who then has to reach back to bring off the bags/suitcase/shopping bags and other things.. as said passenger wouldn't want to leave it on the train. And then lug all that stuff up/down an embankment and over a field or motorway to find a nearby cottage or farm with taxis ready and waiting for onward travel.

I trust every passenger has more than just Google Maps, as I don't think Google Maps is very good for mapping out fields, not even public footpaths.

I can't recall if it was night or day, but if it was night then -- well, good luck with that.

No matter how small the risk, what if one passenger gets off and it isn't noticed for hours, even days, that the person never actually got home - but had fallen trying to walk through a field and was lying injured (or worse)? Nobody would be keeping track (sic) of them if the door was simply left open with a 'You shouldn't get off, but I won't stop you' approach.

 

[transmanche]

Yes it appears that there were problems with organising the rescue but never the less it was being organised.

That's a rather generous definition of 'organised'...

If you get stuck on the motorway in poor weather as often happens then you don't bail out and leave your car there, you stay in it until the police get things moving again

Actually no. On places like the A66, if people get stuck in bad weather, it's common for Police to move them to a local village hall or even a pub. They'll do this with the help of local farmers and Mountain rescue volunteers if necessary.

The reason? It's safer to move them than leave them in an unheated car...

 

[jon0844]

The sort of weather that sees cars stranded and evacuated is not the weather that afflicted the train though is it? If it had been that bad and the train had dropped to lethally cold temperatures, I am sure another strategy would have been adopted. Maybe even the rescue helicopter would have made an appearance, or someone would have called Superman!

If everyone on the train had emerged saying they were lucky to still be alive and moaning, it could have been different. The people on the train, however, seemed happier to stay where they were. So, why is it only people who weren't there that are coming up with 101 rescue plans to replace the obvious one; stay still?

I am not even sure you can compare to loads of individual cars where it would be hard to keep tabs on the well-being of the people inside. It makes more sense to round people up, which is exactly what was already the case on the train. I wonder if, assuming the train wasn't very busy, everyone already moved into one carriage to keep warmer and just get to chat (the Dunkirk spirit kicking into play)?

 

[A-driver]

That's a rather generous definition of 'organised'...

Actually no. On places like the A66, if people get stuck in bad weather, it's common for Police to move them to a local village hall or even a pub. They'll do this with the help of local farmers and Mountain rescue volunteers if necessary.

The reason? It's safer to move them than leave them in an unheated car...

It depends on the conditions. Often they tell people to wait in their cars but I agree, yes they do sometimes move people if its going to be a long time (and 6 hours isn't actually a long time compared to what it could have been).

But on a train its not safer to move them, never (well unless the train is on fire).

If they were organising a rescue train then even if it was taking a while as appears the case here then its much more logical, safer and better for passengers that they are left on the train and await the rescue unit. If they evacuate the train then you have to factor in those who can't be moved (disabled, elderly etc) and also if you have people in high heels, lack of warm clothing etc then you can't walk the, across snow covered fields very far. And the suggestion of just opening the doors and letting people choose is one of the more ridiculous-that would be a thread of its own if the train crew told people 'ok, it's every man for himself, if you want to get off then feel free but you are on your own out there'.

Quite simply, in a situation like this you stay on the train.