BTP launch appeal after "abhorrent" attack on train driver

[455driver]

With due respect 455driver, your attitude is such that I will not take at face value your second- or third-hand anecdotes.

So information direct from my brother is wrong, your source proving me wrong is?

I tell you what I do know. That generations of young men - and it's almost always men - are dismissed from the very start by people like you whose prejudices colour their attitudes without question. And that dehumanisation will be passed on from them to friends, children, partners and so on, creating an unbreakable wall of anger and resentment.

Your source for this is?

You dont know at all so why make it sound like you do, its just your opinion which you are trying to pass off as fact.

My politics are such that I would never have the Daily Mail in the house.

You must be a Times reader then!

The Times, the posh mans Daily Mail.

 

[GadgetMan]

With due respect 455driver, your attitude is such that I will not take at face value your second- or third-hand anecdotes.

I tell you what I do know. That generations of young men - and it's almost always men - are dismissed from the very start by people like you whose prejudices colour their attitudes without question. And that dehumanisation will be passed on from them to friends, children, partners and so on, creating an unbreakable wall of anger and resentment.

My politics are such that I would never have the Daily Mail in the house.

Your not a Judge by any chance are you?

As I said earlier, the attackers are the real victims in this.

 

[PR1Berske]

So information direct from my brother is wrong, your source proving me wrong is?

I am always suspicious by people who are able to quote others whose views reflect their own.

 

[455driver]

Your not a Judge by any chance are you?

I have already asked him that, didnt get an answer though surprise surprise,
I think its nice that they keep their profession a secret but slag my profession off left right and centre.

I wonder if he is a defence lawyer?

 

[rebmcr]

I am always suspicious by people who are able to quote others whose views reflect their own.

Yet you condemned him for being suspicious of violent gangs.

 

[455driver]

I am always suspicious by people who are able to quote others whose views reflect their own.

Unlike you who hasnt been able to quote anyone! :roll:

I may be a lot of things but I am not a liar, in fact I nearly lost my job once because I told the truth rather than make up a small lie but hey you obviously know me better than I do :roll:, what do you do for a job again I appear to have missed that post!

 

[PR1Berske]

Yet you condemned him for being suspicious of violent gangs.

A very interesting point on which to focus.

455 has made his view very clear. Due to one infamous case and anecdotes, he has an attitude against the processes of law and justice in this country. And that is his right. It does not mean, however, that his negative prejudices are accurate. They are not.

"Lock them up and throw away the key" is an outdated, outmoded attitude which should be left in the 19th century, not taken into the 21st. We are a better country than that, and we are better people than that.

I did not condemn him for being suspicious of violent gangs. I took him up on the prejudiced view that all younger people are potential drug taking thugs. The distinction is important.

 

[Oswyntail]

.....The Times, the posh mans Daily Mail.

That single comment simply oozes thoughtless prejudice!
I often wonder how to square the sentiment that the justice system "never jails anyone" with reports of jail overcrowding and record numbers of prisoners. I also read too many stories where calls for"justice" are really calls for revenge.But I also wonder whether a vital part of the British justice system has been lost - the part where, for young offenders, there were parents at home who would put the fear of God into their offspring by any appropriate means if they did wrong. Obviously it didn't deter everyone. But I suspect that the kids involved here would have thought twice if they had to face Mum if she ever found out.

 

[455driver]

As 7 jails are closing this year you work out why the remaining ones are over-crowded?

 

[PR1Berske]

As 7 jails are closing this year you work out why the remaining ones are over-crowded?

Because we jail too many people

We jail elderly women who can't afford council tax. We jail people who put swear words in tweets. We jail people who smoke cannabis behind closed doors, away from anyone else. We jailed a man who called a policeofficer's horse "gay".

Our jails have become holding pens for people who look funny to the Headline Chasing Outrage Corps.

We need to stop this 19th century attitude that "prison works". It does not. Not for the disproportionate number of young, black males, for young mothers, for the educationally disadvantaged.

 

[455driver]

That single comment simply oozes thoughtless prejudice!

I actually like reading the Times even if they do use big words!

I often wonder how to square the sentiment that the justice system "never jails anyone" with reports of jail overcrowding and record numbers of prisoners. I also read too many stories where calls for"justice" are really calls for revenge.But I also wonder whether a vital part of the British justice system has been lost - the part where, for young offenders, there were parents at home who would put the fear of God into their offspring by any appropriate means if they did wrong. Obviously it didn't deter everyone. But I suspect that the kids involved here would have thought twice if they had to face Mum if she ever found out.

More likely Mum would tell the copper to "F##k off I am going to sue you for assaulting my son".

The days of getting a clip round the ear-hole off the copper and then another off your dad (it was always dad that did the punishing) gave you another one for getting one off the copper in the first place are long gone, now we have generations of people that know their rights but forget that with rights comes responsibility!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We need to stop this 19th century attitude that "prison works". It does not.

So what will work oh all knowing one?

 

[jon0844]

Not all prisons have all the creature comforts but some definitely do, as I heard only too clearly on a bus before Christmas when a youngster was moaning about all the things he was missing since being released and implying he'd rather be back inside as he had nothing 'here'. To do so would presumably mean committing more crime.

That's hardly a good thing when people should come out thinking they never want to go back inside.

An automatic 50% sentence reduction also makes a mockery of the legal system and massively misleads the public and victims.

 

[8J]

Ladies, Ladies!! We had the answer to "fixing" people who commited crimes. It was called national service. I believe that it would fix the culture and crime rates in the UK, but I don't believe that it should be compulsory. It should be either optional or compulsary if you are convicted of a crime. Screw the petty Human Rights law. It did more good than harm... It'd also be cheaper than jails.

 

[455driver]

Because we jail too many people

We jail elderly women who can't afford council tax. We jail people who put swear words in tweets. We jail people who smoke cannabis behind closed doors, away from anyone else. We jailed a man who called a policeofficer's horse "gay".

And yet persistent criminals (car thiefs, burglars,ASBO breakers) are let off with community sentences, go figure, maybe "them in charge" realise there is no point bothering with the bottom rung of the ladder and are just trying to keep the masses in line and it doesnt matter if the odd one gets a whack over the head every once in a while after all reported crime is going down so something must be working!

Well yeah the fact you cant get through to the Police station to report a crime in the first place because it is only manned 9-5 Monday to Friday is one thing plus the fact that when you do actually get through to somebody (Perth is the best I have managed and I live in Feltham) they just give you a "crime" number to give to the insurance company, not that they bother turning up even when you tell them who nicked all the tools out of the shed, been there done that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An automatic 50% sentence reduction also makes a mockery of the legal system and massively misleads the public and victims.

Dont forget time on remand counts double as well.

 

[FGW_DID]

Never mind 'The Times' or 'The Mail' sounds more like a reader of the 'Socialist Worker'!

You aren't a social worker who takes these 'mis-understood' youths on jolly japes to holiday parks etc (at our expense) are you?

 

[PR1Berske]

Ladies, Ladies!! We had the answer to "fixing" people who commited crimes. It was called national service. I believe that it would fix the culture and crime rates in the UK, but I don't believe that it should be compulsory. It should be either optional or compulsary if you are convicted of a crime. Screw the petty Human Rights law. It did more good than harm... It'd also be cheaper than jails.

Funnily enough the subject of National Service is one I've been discussing in another area only last week.

Conscription these days would be very different to that known to my grandfather or great-grandfather. The Armed Forces are very different today - in terms of what is expected of them, in terms of how they are trained and for what purposes, in terms of what is expected in equality law and, yes, human rights legislation.

(I'm amused by the idea that legislation allowing freedom of religion, speech and expression is 'petty', btw).

These days it would be difficult to introduce young people into a short, sharp session of national service into a modern armed forces. Employees might find it difficult to timetable the enforced removal of a member of staff, as might colleges and universities.

But over-arching all this for me is the suitability of national service in the 21st century. They still have conscription in Cyprus and Austria, for example, and indeed Finland. In all three cases there is very little reason to expect those countries to raise a fist in anger.

The UK is different. We're never out of wars and invasions. We're never out of other sovereign states, nor rarely out of killing innocent women and children in oil rich countries. An Austrian teenager may never see 'action', and so there is a reasonable argument in favour of them training with the army for weeks or months.

A British teenager may well find himself potentially joining active service. That would be wholly inappropriate.

 

[455driver]

Ladies, Ladies!! We had the answer to "fixing" people who commited crimes. It was called national service. I believe that it would fix the culture and crime rates in the UK, but I don't believe that it should be compulsory. It should be either optional or compulsary if you are convicted of a crime. Screw the petty Human Rights law. It did more good than harm... It'd also be cheaper than jails.

Gets my vote!

Funny enough my 19 year old son (who is as fit as a fiddle) has just been termed "permanently unfit for service" after applying for the Navy, they wont tell him why though!

How would some TWOCker stand on that one?

But then why would you want to inflict these "people" on our great military?

 

[reb0118]

A British teenager may well find himself potentially joining active service. That would be wholly inappropriate.

Not so.

It used to be an option to join the colours to avoid a prison service. Many convicted men took up that option and it was the making of them. The fact that one was risking life & limb for ones country was the redeeming factor. Riff raff from all through the ages have been shedding their blood on foreign fields. This was a win win win situation. Firstly it removed the feral youth from the mother country, secondly a good few would not come back, & thirdly those that did would have learnt respect (including self respect) and discipline not to mention teamwork & camaraderie and the feeling of being part of something greater than oneself.

ps You mentioned Finland retaining national service. Have you seen their neighbour? If you are interested in Finland's problems 1939 - 1941 pick up a copy of William R. Trotter's The Winter War and Finland In Crisis by A. F. Upton. Both very good reads

 

[387star]

what the hell is wrong with some teenagers these days!!

 

[NSEFAN]

But then why would you want to inflict these "people" on our great military?

The belief is that military life gives the criminal a sense of law, order and routine that they would have otherwise never been exposed to, given that most "low lifes" who carry out these kind of pointless attacks tend to come from broken homes and had a poor education. How true this is I don't know, but it makes sense to me at least from the outset.

We need to stop this 19th century attitude that "prison works". It does not. Not for the disproportionate number of young, black males, for young mothers, for the educationally disadvantaged.

I think image is the most important thing in cases like these. A railwayman is attacked simply for trying to ensure the safety of the train. If the perpetrators are given a mere token sentence, it gives the impression that it is somehow acceptable (or not that bad) to carry out further such attacks. Granted, no sentence has been cast yet, but similar things have happened before (at least often enough for people to become concerned about the lack of justice).

We can have our different opinions on how to deal with this problem but surely you must understand the frustraition of some members here, when they see their collegues attacked and the attacker potentially "gets away with it." ?

Personally, I'd rather violent criminals are jailed rather than an old lady who can't pay her council tax! The point of prison is to keep the dangerous ones out of the way of everyone else.

 

[SWTCommuter]

We jailed a man who called a policeofficer's horse "gay".

He was arrested and spent the night in a cell. The case was dropped, he wasn't jailed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4606022.stm

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Conscription these days would be very different to that known to my grandfather or great-grandfather. The Armed Forces are very different today - in terms of what is expected of them,
>

A British teenager may well find himself potentially joining active service. That would be wholly inappropriate.

Perhaps you are unaware that National Servicemen fought and died in Malaya; Aden; Cyprus; Egypt and the various 'Colonial' uprisings in the Fifties. National Service was not just square bashing.

 

[anthony263]

what the hell is wrong with some teenagers these days!!

One simple answer I suspect is that their parents did not do a very good job at raising them. Also All these youth claiming that they struggled at school (Not surprising considering a lot of them just want to stay in bed all day).


I saw some 8-10 year olds last night throwing snow balls at a bus in front of people who didnt do a thing. Easy thing to have done would have been to give them a clip round the ear but no we cant do that because it will mentally scar them.

A lot of teenagers/children these days have now respect of authorities of course if there is an inccident its always someone else's fault. The whole case involving that Mersyrail gaurd is a pefect example which has angered me and I suspect a lot of other people.

What this country needs is a government with a backbone who isnt afraid to tell the human rights bridgade where to take themselves and who will take a very hard line against crime.

I think I should be quite lucky that I was brought up propoerly by parents who did a good job raising me and my siblings considering they are both disabled

 

[BestWestern]

Because we jail too many people

We jail elderly women who can't afford council tax. We jail people who put swear words in tweets. We jail people who smoke cannabis behind closed doors, away from anyone else. We jailed a man who called a policeofficer's horse "gay".

Our jails have become holding pens for people who look funny to the Headline Chasing Outrage Corps.

We need to stop this 19th century attitude that "prison works". It does not. Not for the disproportionate number of young, black males, for young mothers, for the educationally disadvantaged.

Yes we do - but all the wrong ones! You quote, quite rightly, a list of ludicrous cases where people have been jailed when they should never, ever, have been sent anywhere near one - odd considering that apparently our justice system is the picture of ideal in your world - yet you fail to acknowledge the obvious 'elephant in the room', those genuine criminals who we don't jail but really should! The thugs who make innocent people's lives a misery, who have no respect whatsoever for anyone - you, me, their fellow citizens, their own families, the police, the justice system - they hold not a care for anyone, because they know that the worst that can happen is a pathetically short time in a Butlins prison, then back out and returning to their comfortable world of benefits and crime that pays.

I think we can safely say that your earlier approach that prisons are nothing like we all think is clearly misguided. Evidence from several sources would suggest that, actually, it is exactly the cushy world of TV and X Box that so many feared it would be, sending out totally the wrong message to those who spend time there. Incidentally, the calling lags 'Sir' thing was also widely reported in the press at the time, so we can be reasonably sure that even such a disgusting and utterly offensive idea as that really was genuine. You mention also the vote. If you commit a crime, you are acting in deliberate defiance of the laws of the land, and as such you forfeit the full set of rights as a citizen. Losing the vote whilst inside seems perfectly reasonable to me, the purpose of prison is to remove the offender from society until such time as they are deemed fit to return. Should we let them nip out do a bit of shopping while they're in there too?!

As we're on the subject of crime, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on intruders and self defence. Do you think it fair and reasonable that house holders can protect themselves threatened, or do you feel instead that the law should be the only course of defence available? Just an interesting thought.

I say it again, a large proportion of the population of this country are sick of it. Sick of uncontrolled yob culture, impotent policing and deeply misguided priorities. There will always be the apologists who spend their lives in constant sympathy mode, believing that the 'Hug a Hoodie' approach will change the world. It won't. It is these people who uphold the slow deterioration of our society, sheltered from the harsh realities by their own determined naivety.

 

[jon0844]

I do believe there are many people that can benefit from a short, sharp shock and that will get them back on the straight and narrow. And then you have the habitual offenders.

The problem is we have people who think everyone can be made good with a bit of effort, and we chuck a fortune on schemes that only work on the first type of person that had a 'moment of madness' and has remorse and guilt that will stop them breaking the law again.

We also have a generation of people who pick and choose laws that are important, and are quite happy to break them (this seems especially prevalent with railway laws) and then get all angry when caught and prosecuted, coming up with sob stories about how they can't afford a criminal record because it might affect their career or possible future career. Well, duh, that's why you don't break the law in the first place.

I think our legal system is mostly broken and it has had the effect that the police are inept and impotent because they can't see the point wasting their time for no result. They have to deal with the same smug gits that seem to be invincible day in, day out, and so they'd rather go for the easy targets.

We also have this softly softly approach with people who commit smaller crimes, without considering that when people get let off those minor offences they will be encouraged to push the boundaries a little further. Over time, it almost becomes a game to see how much you can get away with - and society suggests that's quite a bit!

If things don't change for the better soon, we'll see more people taking the law into their own hands - and that's when things get dangerous as people go after innocent people by mistake.

 

[BestWestern]

I do believe there are many people that can benefit from a short, sharp shock and that will get them back on the straight and narrow. And then you have the habitual offenders.

The problem is we have people who think everyone can be made good with a bit of effort, and we chuck a fortune on schemes that only work on the first type of person that had a 'moment of madness' and has remorse and guilt that will stop them breaking the law again.

We also have a generation of people who pick and choose laws that are important, and are quite happy to break them (this seems especially prevalent with railway laws) and then get all angry when caught and prosecuted, coming up with sob stories about how they can't afford a criminal record because it might affect their career or possible future career. Well, duh, that's why you don't break the law in the first place.

I think our legal system is mostly broken and it has had the effect that the police are inept and impotent because they can't see the point wasting their time for no result. They have to deal with the same smug gits that seem to be invincible day in, day out, and so they'd rather go for the easy targets.

We also have this softly softly approach with people who commit smaller crimes, without considering that when people get let off those minor offences they will be encouraged to push the boundaries a little further. Over time, it almost becomes a game to see how much you can get away with - and society suggests that's quite a bit!

If things don't change for the better soon, we'll see more people taking the law into their own hands - and that's when things get dangerous as people go after innocent people by mistake.

All very true. You are absolutely right that people who are repeatedly let off will only get worse, it's entirely logical. We need to be 'nipping it in the bud' so to speak, sharp punishment in the early stages so the incentive to keep going is removed.

 

[westcoaster]

https://www.btp.police.uk/latest_news/appeals/train_driver_attacked.aspx


Best wishes to the driver and let's hope the attackers are found.

First of all best wishes to the driver involved, hope to see you back at work soon. Don't mean to sound critical of SE trains but where's the CCTV from the station, o wait by the sounds of it there is none so they have to look for some in the local area.

 

[BestWestern]

First of all best wishes to the driver involved, hope to see you back at work soon. Don't mean to sound critical of SE trains but where's the CCTV from the station, o wait by the sounds of it there is none so they have to look for some in the local area.

It's high time that all trains and stations were fitted with mandatory CCTV. Such is society.

 

[fusionblue]

It's worth noting that Bat & Ball is unstaffed. This likely wouldn't have happened at a busier station further up the same line like Bromley South.

 

[Monty]

We're never out of other sovereign states, nor rarely out of killing innocent women and children in oil rich countries.

As someone who has served in the armed forces in the past and who has members of my family still in active service I find this comment grossly offensive and inappropriate. :mad: