Passengers Stuck on Seaford - Brighton service for SIX hours

[yorksrob]

It does rather highlight how few locos there seem to be around these days !

 

[Flamingo]

It does rather highlight how few locos there seem to be around these days !

I remember a few years ago a freight failed at Reading across all sets of points at reading West, and an engine had to come from Newport to shift it. Blocked the whole place for hours on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[PR1Berske]

It does rather highlight how few locos there seem to be around these days !

It highlights a lot more than that!

 

[yorksrob]

Well, it seems hard to imagine somewhere like Brighton without there being a class 33 or 73 somewhere nearby.

 

[Starmill]

Sloppy reporting that is (then it is The Argus and they arent brilliant).

Was out of the rear drivers door.

Hardly more dignified to be honest!

 

[causton]

Hardly more dignified to be honest!

Why? It goes out onto the track like a normal train toilet (except for the newer ones with retention tanks) - better than in the gangway and having to stay near it at least it drains away into the ballast!

 

[exile]

I find it hard to believe that 3 inches of snow made it too dangerous to detrain the passengers. Are the rescue services not able to evacuate passengers in this sort of weather? It's not like the situation on the Highland line back in the 70s where a train was literally buried in the snow for days.

 

[ainsworth74]

Say that Southern had let Cedric Wares (I used to work with him!!) out onto the mainline, and it got to London Road and derailed because the wheels are only maintained for low speed yard work?

Surely whoever was driving it would be aware that it was only maintained for pottering about the yard and would drive accordingly?

 

[sarahj]

I know the conductor involved and have been told what went on and would love to share, but wont, but one thing he did say is the passengers were as good as gold even when there were issues when they got to Brighton via a bus.

meanwhile on the BML this morning, now there was a c**k up.

SJ

 

[Flamingo]

I find it hard to believe that 3 inches of snow made it too dangerous to detrain the passengers. Are the rescue services not able to evacuate passengers in this sort of weather? It's not like the situation on the Highland line back in the 70s where a train was literally buried in the snow for days.

Why do you find it hard to believe? It's enough to bring the whole country to a halt, close schools and make roads impassable, and yet you expect a train guard and driver to escort a a large number of passengers, with indeterminate health and mobility issues, in possibly inappropriate clothing and footwear, along already unstable underfoot conditions, when they are in a place of safety?

You are welcome to try, but not on my train please.

 

[steamybrian]

It just seems incredible to me that nothing else could be done for 6 hours except leave the train there. As a retired BR "dinosaur" and not fully conversant with the modern units so excuse me if the following could not have been done which may have been considered in the "good old days".
The train came to stand between Lewes and Falmer on Falmer Bank which steepens to around 1 in 70 although I am unsure what the gradient was at that location it failed. Was it possible with the signalmans agreement to roll back wrong line to Lewes?
Could another unit have been sent forward from Lewes (under signalmans authority) to attach and drag it back?
I am astounded that at Brighton including Lovers Walk Sdgs there was no other loco or another spare unit to assist except the 09 shunter? I except it was the evening rush hour but surely there must have been something else..

 

[PR1Berske]

I'm not so astounded, though it is a remarkable story. That nothing could be done for mostly "technical" reasons (it the broadest sense of that word) for 6 hours just beggars belief.

 

[jon0844]

If this was a Class 313, there's a shed load of room at each end by the drivers cab, so perhaps Southern could consider carrying some 'emergency supplies', like blankets, water, food (energy bars or something) and those toilet 'pouches' that you can get for festivals etc, in case a train might get stranded in bad weather. Some things might just come in handy even if a train merely breaks down on a 'normal' day. Relatively little cost to the TOC as I bet these incidents don't happen often.

By the sounds of it, the incident was unfortunate but not life threatening, but if it highlights an issue that rescuing the train might take some time because of the non-standard couplers and the line itself, this sort of pre-emptive action might be a good idea.

Getting people off the train would have been stupid. Imagine trying to walk on a track with all sorts of slip hazards and ways to slip/sprain your ankle - when you can't easily see the sleepers/ballast, or some drops that might cause further injury - and of course people being dressed inappropriately. I've seen plenty of women with very high-heels (as in 3-5-inches) trying to walk in the snow around here, so I doubt they'd easily make it along the line.

A real, genuine, life-threatening emergency is different of course - but this wasn't one.

 

[ushawk]

There's never usually any need to have a loco other than the GatEx 73 as most of the time another unit will come out to rescue - but this was an incredibly rare occurrence.

I've heard from someone on board that the loco was held for nearly 2 hours at Brighton as the control "couldn't find the location of the train" as they didn't know the area well to give it. Eventually they contacted the train crew asking.

 

[ryan125hst]

Could another unit have been sent forward from Lewes (under signalmans authority) to attach and drag it back?
I am astounded that at Brighton including Lovers Walk Sdgs there was no other loco or another spare unit to assist except the 09 shunter? I except it was the evening rush hour but surely there must have been something else..

You would have thought that in an emergency situation, they could have even cancelled a train to go and rescue it. At least the passengers who would have been due to travel on the rescue unit would be at a station, possibly with waiting rooms, toilets and refreshments. Even if they were at an unstaffed station, they would have been able to go home, back to work or even to a pub or cafe if they wanted to. It doubt if they would have had to wait more than an hour for the next train.

I understand that if they sent a class 377 to rescue it, they have incompatible couplers, but haven't they got an emergency coupler?

 

[ushawk]

You would have thought that in an emergency situation, they could have even cancelled a train to go and rescue it. At least the passengers who would have been due to travel on the rescue unit would be at a station, possibly with waiting rooms, toilets and refreshments. Even if they were at an unstaffed station, they would have been able to go home, back to work or even to a pub or cafe if they wanted to. It doubt if they would have had to wait more than an hour for the next train.

I understand that if they sent a class 377 to rescue it, they have incompatible couplers, but haven't they got an emergency coupler?

They already have 1 313 stuck at the location with burnt out motors, they arent going to risk sending another (bear in mind that nothing would have ran along the line for a few hours before a rescue unit would have turned up) in case that one gets stuck as well.

If the conductor rail was heated, ice wouldnt be able to build up on it so trains wouldnt get stuck - its the only solution for me. Other than that your going to need a very expensive fleet of rescue locos based down south for about 2 days a year !!

 

[Goatboy]

The train came to stand between Lewes and Falmer on Falmer Bank which steepens to around 1 in 70 although I am unsure what the gradient was at that location it failed. Was it possible with the signalmans agreement to roll back wrong line to Lewes?

Rules is rules. They must stick whatever happens. Otherwise 'elf and safety won't be happy.

 

[Wath Yard]

Other than that your going to need a very expensive fleet of rescue locos based down south for about 2 days a year !!

It wouldn't be vastly expensive. DRS have excess loco's in their fleet that are only used on RHTTs and WCRC have little work in the winter. A few strategically placed rescue loco's spread around the network when snow is predicted wouldn't be that expensive at all. During the week GBRf probably also have a number of 73s doing very little. Contingency plans do cost money, but after the fiasco of Southeastern abandoning passengers overnight in the snow a couple of winters ago Network Rail was supposed to make some.

I also don't understand how it took so long to get the 73 on the scene. It was in London, not Inverness. If there were no spare crews then cancel a passenger service to release one, don't just abandon people in the freezing cold for 6 hours. As the 73 was the thunderbird loco for Gatwick Express there should be enough crew trained on it.

I know the conductor involved and have been told what went on and would love to share, but wont, but one thing he did say is the passengers were as good as gold even when there were issues when they got to Brighton via a bus.

That doesn't surprise me. I got stuck on a train for 5 1/2 hours when the preceding train brought the wires down. We had heating, food and toilets but even so I didn't hear a single murmur of complaint from any passengers. We just sat there and waited.

 

[fgwrich]

It wouldn't be vastly expensive. DRS have excess loco's in their fleet that are only used on RHTTs and WCRC have little work in the winter. A few strategically placed rescue loco's spread around the network when snow is predicted wouldn't be that expensive at all. During the week GBRf probably also have a number of 73s doing very little. Contingency plans do cost money, but after the fiasco of Southeastern abandoning passengers overnight in the snow a couple of winters ago Network Rail was supposed to make some.

I also don't understand how it took so long to get the 73 on the scene. It was in London, not Inverness. If there were no spare crews then cancel a passenger service to release one, don't just abandon people in the freezing cold for 6 hours. As the 73 was the thunderbird loco for Gatwick Express there should be enough crew trained on it.



That doesn't surprise me. I got stuck on a train for 5 1/2 hours when the preceding train brought the wires down. We had heating, food and toilets but even so I didn't hear a single murmur of complaint from any passengers. We just sat there and waited.

*Cough*Cough* Isnt this one of the reasons as to why Network Rail took out the lease of 6 Ex Virgin Trains Class 57/3s...And then modified the couplings on 2/3 of them to take Tightlock Couplings? I know that most of them are out and about across the southern at the moment on de-icer duties, but surely Southern could have arranged for one to come over from either Eastleigh via the Coastway or Tonbridge?

 

[Tomnick]

Rules is rules. They must stick whatever happens. Otherwise 'elf and safety won't be happy.

Correct, and very sensible. The Rules & Regulations have developed through many years of experience from accidents, and the staff on the ground need to do what they can whilst working within those Rules & Regs.

 

[yorksrob]

Out of interest, if you had a loco somewhere in the vicinity (and I would count places like Tonbridge, Stewarts Lane etc as reasonably nearby), even if you didn't have anything in the way of compatible couplings etc, wouldn't you be able to push a unit in extreme situations such as this ?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Well, it seems hard to imagine somewhere like Brighton without there being a class 33 or 73 somewhere nearby.

I suspect as regular services in the area are almost always multiple units, one can always send out a sister unit to salvage it.

I've heard from someone on board that the loco was held for nearly 2 hours at Brighton as the control "couldn't find the location of the train" as they didn't know the area well to give it. Eventually they contacted the train crew asking.

Is "keep going until you see the green train-shaped thingy" a valid directive in those circumstances?

 

[PR1Berske]

Rules is rules. They must stick whatever happens. Otherwise 'elf and safety won't be happy.

 

[Flamingo]

Rules is rules. They must stick whatever happens. Otherwise 'elf and safety won't be happy.

Any time a member of staff deviates from the rules, they are removing any indemnity they have by virtue of being an employee, and are leaving themselves personally liable.

Don't forget the incident in Liverpool. The RAIB report concluded that if the guard HAD dispatched from the correct place, the girl would still have been killed, but the guard would not have been liable as he would not have seen her. That guard is now in prison because he did not follow the rulebook.

As employees, we deviate from the rulebook at our own peril.

 

[steamybrian]

Correct, and very sensible. The Rules & Regulations have developed through many years of experience from accidents, and the staff on the ground need to do what they can whilst working within those Rules & Regs.

From the description given it failed on the rising gradient about midway between Lewes and Falmer.
There are Rules & Regulations and experienced rail staff should find the small print to deal with situations like this.
I do not expect there to be spare locos everywhere "just in case" but there are other locations where on that day there could be locos such as Three Bridges, Redhill, Selhurst, etc. My local station is Tonbridge and I noticed yesterday in West Yard sidings there were SIX locos berthed.
I have twice been on a train that has failed and on both occasions the following train gave us a push from the rear. The guard in liaison with the signalman gave authority for the following train to attach to the rear of our train.
Modern trains have communications so if the driver could not contact the signalman then the guard/conductor should have. If not then the guard/conductor should have borrowed a passengers mobile phone as an emergency.
To summarise it is ******* appalling.

 

[michael769]

My questions are:

What was done to rescue the passengers in the end?
Why could that not have been done 5 hours earlier?

 

[AndyLandy]

No of course not, why have rules (however stupid) if they can be ignored when they "get in the way".

Perhaps the railways are different, but my experience of rules in most cases is that they can usually be divided up into categories.

• Essential rules that you absolutely must abide by at all times.
• Rules that ensure smooth and efficient process, but would not be catastrophic if broken. (The cost of breaking them may vary, however)
• Rules that aren't actually useful. Possibly they're outdated, or they're trying to fix a non-existant problem, or they fix something at the expense of something else.

People who write "rules" are no more or less infallible than other human beings. Unfortunately, we live in a society where any step out of the bounds of the strict process laid before us and we're on our own. This is the true meaning of calling someone a "jobsworth", because it's more than their job is worth to do anything other than the documented process, even if it's complete rubbish.

So, I'll make no claims about this particular event, as I don't know the specifics. I would find it surprising, but plausible that there really were no other alternatives and this was the best that could be done. But my message to the "rules is rules" brigade is this: "Never trust that the rules are infallible."

 

[ushawk]

My questions are:

What was done to rescue the passengers in the end?
Why could that not have been done 5 hours earlier?

1. GatEx 73 sent from London to rescue the unit and drag it back to Lewes.

2. I assume they were looking at all options, but 5 hours is too long. Sunday night a 377 failed and was stuck further along the line at Pevensey, that didn't move for 3 hours and was eventually moved after being de-iced.

As I've already said, normally a detrainment would have happened, but it was incredibly icy with a few inches of snow - it would have been incredibly dangerous. Access to the location where it happened is poor too, being on an embankment on an incline. It's very rare that this should happen.

 

[Tomnick]

From the description given it failed on the rising gradient about midway between Lewes and Falmer.
There are Rules & Regulations and experienced rail staff should find the small print to deal with situations like this.
I do not expect there to be spare locos everywhere "just in case" but there are other locations where on that day there could be locos such as Three Bridges, Redhill, Selhurst, etc. My local station is Tonbridge and I noticed yesterday in West Yard sidings there were SIX locos berthed.
I have twice been on a train that has failed and on both occasions the following train gave us a push from the rear. The guard in liaison with the signalman gave authority for the following train to attach to the rear of our train.
Modern trains have communications so if the driver could not contact the signalman then the guard/conductor should have. If not then the guard/conductor should have borrowed a passengers mobile phone as an emergency.
To summarise it is ******* appalling.

I'm not defending the amount of time taken to assist the failure - I agree that it took too long. I just wanted to respond to those who seem to be suggesting that it's ok for 'front-line' staff to take it upon themselves to deviate from the Rules & Regs. It's largely irrelevant in this case - if a suitable unit or loco was available to assist the failure or evacuate the passengers, then that could be done relatively easily. It's up to Control (both NR and the TOC) to find something suitable to assist (and suitably competent crew to take it) though, and this appears to be where it's all fallen apart. As someone else has said above though, it's not as easy as sending the following one in - no point doing that if you end up with a second train failed too!

I don't think there's been any suggestion that communication was unavailable with the Signalman. GSM-R should be 'live' in the area now, and both Driver and Guard would probably have their own mobile phones too. If all else failed, the Driver would need to walk back to make contact (either to an SPT, other phone or a signal box).

No point letting the facts get in the way though, when it's easier to blame those of us whose job it is to follow the Rules & Regs to keep the railway running safely for, erm, following the Rules & Regs.

 

[Goatboy]

I just wanted to respond to those who seem to be suggesting that it's ok for 'front-line' staff to take it upon themselves to deviate from the Rules & Regs.

I am not for one minute suggesting this and the traincrew onboard the train were absolutely correct not to de-train the passengers or take it upon themselves to do anything else outside the rulebook.

But there will be a chain of command and somebody at the top of that chain of command - who should be sufficiently experienced and skilled to make difficult decisions - should be able to authorise things which in normal practice wouldn't be allowed if an emergency situation arises.

Leaving people on a train for 5 hours in this sort of circumstance simply isn't acceptable.