AndyLandy
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Does this matter? If I plan to pay with cash, but the TVMs only accept card, then the simple act of having a card that I could have used prejudices the case against me?
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Are passengers required to pay by card from certain stations?
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Does this matter? If I plan to pay with cash, but the TVMs only accept card, then the simple act of having a card that I could have used prejudices the case against me?
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Flamingo
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I'd say yes.
Let's suppose you wanted to pay with notes ( as you wanted to save your change for a vending machine), and the machine would only accept coins? Would you be right in not paying as you could not use the method you wanted to?
I'd say the scenario is comparable, you have the means to pay, the TOC is offering you a means to buy a ticket. You chose not to buy despite having the means to.
Let's suppose you wanted to pay with notes ( as you wanted to save your change for a vending machine), and the machine would only accept coins? Would you be right in not paying as you could not use the method you wanted to?
I'd say the scenario is comparable, you have the means to pay, the TOC is offering you a means to buy a ticket. You chose not to buy despite having the means to.
AndyLandy
Established Member
So, should I potentially take my account overdrawn, or rack up more interest charges on a credit card?
Things are getting ever more theoretical, but if you have a card that is accepted and will not result in you paying more than using cash, then I think you are expected to use it.
I am not aware of any precedents about this, so this is entirely my opinion and interpretation, with which all are free to disagree.
I am not aware of any precedents about this, so this is entirely my opinion and interpretation, with which all are free to disagree.
Flamingo
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If that's what it takes to pay for the fare, then unfortunately, yes.
I occasionally get people who say they don't have money, and then say their card won't work. In a lot of cases, they get quite surprised when I ring to get authorisation from their bank, and it is authorised.
I don't believe there is no money on a card unless the bank tells me so.
I don't know of any other business that will allow customers to receive a service for free if paying for it will put the customer overdrawn. That's the customers problem, not the businesses.
Well of course there is the law and then there is common-sense... but all this wriggling about cards and cash just doesn't sit right for those of us who simply pay our fare, every time, without question. Whilst there are of course situations where people genuinely can't pay beforehand, far too often in my opinion this stuff is really looking for excuses not to pay.
If a customer wishes to pay by cash, and the Train Company provides no facility to pay by cash at the origin station, does the customer have to pay by a Card, if in possession of a Card? Even if that means going overdrawn, or using funds allocated for some other purpose?
If the answer is "no, if they wish to pay by cash" then that's the end of that.
If the answer is "yes, they must pay by card, even if that means going overdrawn" then I consider that a very concerning state of affairs.
If the answer is "yes, they must pay by card, providing there is sufficient balance in their account" then I would be interested to know what the procedure would be to check this? Would the bank statements be required to be checked by a Court? It seems crazy to me.
This is going off on a tangent to the original post, so I'd propose to move this discussion into a new thread. This particular issue is of no relevance to the original poster (OP) because the OP has been accused of intent to avoid payment at their destination.
According to a helpful guard, the official policy that Northern adopt is that if a customer wishes to pay by cash when boarding at a station with card only TVMs a full range of tickets should be available. I agree with that policy and I would say that is the correct policy.
If the answer is "no, if they wish to pay by cash" then that's the end of that.
If the answer is "yes, they must pay by card, even if that means going overdrawn" then I consider that a very concerning state of affairs.
If the answer is "yes, they must pay by card, providing there is sufficient balance in their account" then I would be interested to know what the procedure would be to check this? Would the bank statements be required to be checked by a Court? It seems crazy to me.
This is going off on a tangent to the original post, so I'd propose to move this discussion into a new thread. This particular issue is of no relevance to the original poster (OP) because the OP has been accused of intent to avoid payment at their destination.
According to a helpful guard, the official policy that Northern adopt is that if a customer wishes to pay by cash when boarding at a station with card only TVMs a full range of tickets should be available. I agree with that policy and I would say that is the correct policy.
I have noticed there is a huge amount of "what-iffery" as well as whataboutery in this forum, which is perhaps understandable given the subject matter.
Nonetheless, as someone who always pays their fare, I find it hard to give a tuppenny damn about those who don't (for whatever reason, really). I am afraid I place rather little value on peoples' wish to pay by a particular method. I think it reasonable that almost everyone should be able to pay by card if that is the only method available, and not unreasonable for it to be incumbent on passengers to prove they were unable to pay by card if it comes down to it.
If you can't pay your fare, don't travel. If not having a card makes this more difficult, tough.
Nonetheless, as someone who always pays their fare, I find it hard to give a tuppenny damn about those who don't (for whatever reason, really). I am afraid I place rather little value on peoples' wish to pay by a particular method. I think it reasonable that almost everyone should be able to pay by card if that is the only method available, and not unreasonable for it to be incumbent on passengers to prove they were unable to pay by card if it comes down to it.
If you can't pay your fare, don't travel. If not having a card makes this more difficult, tough.
AndyLandy
Established Member
Except the points under discussion here are not about fare evaders. I personally think it's entirely reasonable for me to carry enough cash to pay for a rail journey I plan to take. If the facilities at the station do not include the ability to pay by cash, I see no reason why I as a customer should be disadvantaged by a TOC's decision not to provide that functionality. The full range of fares should be offered on-board. Card-paying facilities at the station are irrelevant, that's not my chosen method of payment, completely independent of whether I have a suitable card or not.
It strikes me as concerning that Northern Rail seem to want to have it both ways, requiring customers to buy before they board, but not being prepared to provide the necessary facilities to permit that.
Agreed, although they are about people who don't pay their fare.
It is perfectly feasible for the overwhelming majority of people to pay by card. I doubt I know a single adult who couldn't do so. In most cases the "disadvantage" the customer is experiencing stems from being just plain awkward. I have little time for it.
All you are saying is that your "right to pay by your chosen method" trumps everything else. I'm saying that such a "right" is meaningless, or at least worthless to me.
On the contrary, "customers" want TOCs to show discretion and common-sense, but want it both ways. The common-sense line is, when facing a card-only TVM, to take your card out of your wallet and pay your fare - because you (almost) always can.
AndyLandy
Established Member
Is there a difference? This is about people who pay their fares later in their journey, not that they don't pay at all.
I'm sure I know plenty. The reasons will vary from person to person, but by and large I can think of many good reasons why someone may not wish, or be able, to use their card at a TVM.
No, I'm saying that part of the conditions of travel are that you may pay for rail travel in a variety of ways. A TOC not providing suitable facilities at your boarding station should not erode that right. It may be worthless to you and me, and indeed the majority of the travelling public, but it's not worthless to everybody.
You and I probably, but I say again, by no means everybody.
I suspect that, having not read the original thread, I'm missing something here, but how could this situation arise? If somebody gets on a train at a station with a card-only TVM (like mine) when the ticket office is closed, and then attempts to pay at their destination with cash - what's going to happen? I might have a card. I might not. (by extension, It might have usable funds. It might not.) If I do it's going to be in my wallet, in my pocket. If I'm offering cash and somebody then asks to have a look in there to see if I've got a card or not, what do you think my response will be?
Note that I have, at times, had to carry cards for which I do not know the PIN. What then? Far too complicated and impossible to check. Lastly this does little to address the last major issue; what if the card-only TVM didn't have the fare I wanted in it?
Note that I have, at times, had to carry cards for which I do not know the PIN. What then? Far too complicated and impossible to check. Lastly this does little to address the last major issue; what if the card-only TVM didn't have the fare I wanted in it?
I'm confused as to why there is even a debate here, I think two questions getting merged. I guess Flamingo's example is that where he encounters passengers who say they can't pay, say their debit card hasn't got enough money on etc, which Flamingo correctly calls them out on.
But I'm unconvinced that a passenger should pay by card before boarding if they wish to pay by cash. It shouldn't be the railway's job to investigate what are legitimate reasons for avoiding using card. There are lots of perfectly reasonable examples - card near limit, or don't know how far it is off the limit, or plenty of cash in an account, but payments due to come out of the account soon, or the individual doesn't want others to know about their journey!
If it were to be the railways job, then these conditions should be formalised.
I realise there are some who might avoid paying by picking a method not offered by the machine, but this is simply an argument for the ToC to provide better facilities or do improve ticket checks.
But I'm unconvinced that a passenger should pay by card before boarding if they wish to pay by cash. It shouldn't be the railway's job to investigate what are legitimate reasons for avoiding using card. There are lots of perfectly reasonable examples - card near limit, or don't know how far it is off the limit, or plenty of cash in an account, but payments due to come out of the account soon, or the individual doesn't want others to know about their journey!
If it were to be the railways job, then these conditions should be formalised.
I realise there are some who might avoid paying by picking a method not offered by the machine, but this is simply an argument for the ToC to provide better facilities or do improve ticket checks.
causton
Established Member
If they have cash in their wallet and board at a station that doesn't have a TVM accepting cash, and didn't have enough for the full fare in their account that would avoid them going into overdraft...
...it could happen?
In most cases I would agree with you though, if you don't want to pay by card yet you have one in your pocket that has money on it, then it's just being awkward not to use it!
Totally.
It is reasonable for the railway to refuse cards and insist on cash, if that if what they choose on the day.
But it is not reasonable to refuse cash when offered in legal tender amounts. (No bagfuls of pennies!) That is, after all, the whole purpose of cash - to pay for things you buy!
The world has gone mad.
NSEFAN
Established Member
Holly said:
There's a good reason many TVMs don't accept cash: Theft.
An easy solution to this problem is to just get rid of TVMs and require the passenger to buy from the guard when the ticket office is closed.
hairyhandedfool
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Imo, there are two issues here:
The passenger can't pay by the method available (no card, no funds, etc)
The passenger won't pay by the method available (has funds but doesn't want to use them)
Imo, they should be treated differently.
Legal tender, in this case, is what ever the railway is willing to accept.
The passenger can't pay by the method available (no card, no funds, etc)
The passenger won't pay by the method available (has funds but doesn't want to use them)
Imo, they should be treated differently.
Legal tender, in this case, is what ever the railway is willing to accept.
I would think that the customer would have to accommodate the method of payment offered by the retailer here, not the other way around. As a customer I would investigate or have an idea beforehand of whether I can pay by cash or card. Why don't I ever go to the train station (or anywhere else for that matter) with a cheque book? Because I know that they don't accept cheques (more of an assumption I suppose).
Look, if I'm owed money by my employer, or anyone else, I'm obliged to accept cash.
I can't insist on gold bullion, or acorns, or plastic card or anything else of value.
The other things I can accept if we agree, but money I must accept (or give up my right to enforce payment).
It works both ways, if I must accept money that the government issues (cannot insist on gold Krugerrands) then society doesn't work unless everyone is forced to accept the government's money. If the trains are open as a public service then they have to accept cash money for the sale of tickets.
They could of course be like the airlines and refuse to sell tickets at all after a deadline. But if purchase is required then money must be accepted when purchase is required (as contrasted with "when sale is merely offered"). That doesn't mean that card only TVMs should not be allowed. But it does mean the traveller must be able to pay someone cash for the journey. Even if that means paying on the train or upon destination arrival; or even paying at some later date (when there is someone to pay).
AndyLandy
Established Member
There are some specific differences though. I've been making occasional journeys on the Tyne & Wear Metro for a very many years now. Until recently, the only way to pay for Metro tickets was with coins (The machines did not accept notes or cards). Those were the breaks and everybody knew it. You always ensured you had a pocketful of poind coins, otherwise you couldn't take the train.
The National Rail network is different. There are terms and conditions around what payment types are acceptable. They may not include cheque, but they do include cash, cards and some other things (rail travel vouchers for instance.) There is an expectation that those methods will be accepted (which did not exist in the Metro example above.) Additionally, these new card-only TVMs are being introduced at stations where either no facilities existed before, or are in-lieu of an open ticket office. In both previous cases, multiple payment methods would have been accepted (at the office, or on the train)
And there's another key point. Clearly, TVMs can't sell the entire range of fares, it would be practically impossible to do so. Couple that with folks who genuinely don't have cards, and you'll always have people buying on the train, unless you provide fully manned ticket offices everywhere.
If I turned up at a station where only a card TVM was evident, I'd likely use it. (Assuming it had the fare I wanted), but then I pay by card in preference. I would also hope that some folks who'd normally pay by cash would switch to it for convenience, but it's not the railway's business to check every cash-paying customer who buys on the train, that they aren't carrying a valid card.
The railways are not refusing to accept cash money it's just in some situations it is not possible and they "ask" for a card to be used.
Maybe, but the railway company is prepared to accept cash and RTVs in addition to cards. The choice is for the customer.
If not, then any customer with an oyster card in his pocket (but wanting to pay cash) who boards at Crews Hill (zone 6, no machines, PFs don't apply) will be mandated to use his oyster even if wanting to buy a Crews Hill to Penzance return.
We also need to be mindful of the Equality Act and the protections it affords to disabled persons.
That doesn't follow, I'm afraid. In the first instance there is a debt owed. In the second there is not, and the customer is trying to purchase something.
Flamingo
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But once the passenger is on the train, there is a debt owed by them to pay for their journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Reversing the argument, I've had passengers with a wallet full of notes say they wanted to use their card to pay, and when the card was declined (far be it for me to say as they knew it would be) refuse to use the cash in their possession, saying it's not their fault the card was declined, it was the railways problem.
Should I shrug my shoulders, say "You're right" and walk away?
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AndyLandy
Established Member
What would you do in the case that they did not have sufficient cash?
David Goddard
Established Member
South West Trains has recently changed a lot of its Car Park Pay & Display machines to Card Only. I expect the same arguments apply there, although these are often at staffed stations where you can purchase a parking ticket from the ticket office.
Flamingo
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I'd certainly expect hem to pay what they could.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the heart of it.
And, IMHO, the solution - however impractical it might be.
It's quite common that foreign tourists don't have cards, or their cards are declined ("We're here to help you and detected an unusual transaction is the usual unhelpful message"), or they don't want to risk using them in a strange land.
So they carry goodly sums of cash. In days of yore they would have carried travellers' cheques or travelers checks, but they are no longer accepted most places.
There is a good reason that money exists, even if the TOCs find that the expense of handling it cuts into profits.
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